Thriving as a Mormon Mixed-Faith Couple – Kattie and Allan Mount

0:03 John Dehlin Shapes.

0:05 Kattie Mount Oh, society loves their shapes.

0:09 John Dehlin Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host John Dehlin and actually today is a joint episode. This this this episode is brought to you both by Mormon Stories Podcast and the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast. For those of you Mormon Stories listeners who don't know, earlier this year, Natasha Helfer Parker, Margi Dehlin, my wife and I started this podcast. We're about 35, 40 episodes in and it's all about providing you with personal, practical tips and tricks for navigating your faith crisis. It's a great website, mormonfaithcrisis.com we've been doing great work there and that's more of sort of the practical how to stuff than that. Natasha, Margi and I do. Mormon Stories is more about the stories. We have already interviewed Allan and Kattie Mount last week four hours on their amazing epic journey through Mormonism and Allan has stepped away from the church. Kattie is still a believing member and they started this amazing podcast called Marriage on a Tightrope. And so we interviewed them about their journey, about how they have thrived in their marriage as a mixed faith couple and why they started the podcast. And if you haven't checked that out, it's a story very much worth listening to. Positive, practical and personal. That's the three P's positive. So today's episode is all about Allan and Kattie's tips and tricks. They not only have they navigated successfully so far, a mixed faith marriage, but they, as they told us in their episode last week, have met with many, many couples over the past year and have been thinking a lot about this and have been trying to gather wisdom for other mixed faith couples. And so earlier last month In June of 2019, a few awesome committee members and I held a conference called Thrive 2019. It was held in Salt Lake City and we invited as many of the coolest people as we could gather to present on several really cool topics. So Natasha, Alfred Parker talked about healthy sexuality. Anthony Miller talked about, you know, navigating a faith crisis gracefully. David Bachavoy talked about spirituality. I gave a talk. Markie gave a talk. Gary and Ernie gave an awesome talk. All these amazing people gave cool talks. Allan and Kattie gave a talk on navigating mixed faith marriage. And so instead of just sharing the audio recording of that presentation, and we also didn't get consent from the audience participants to share their audio, what we decided to do was to bring them back in for today's episode to have them share the presentation with us and then we're going to talk about it. So this is going to be about a two hour episode and we are going to hear Allan and Kattie's tips on navigating a mixed faith marriage in a Mormon context. And this is sort of like the first in the series on Mormon stories that we are going to be having on interviewing several successful Mormon mixed faith couples. Now Allan and Kattie already do that on Marriage on a Tightrope. So we certainly want you to check out their podcast. But there can't be enough good stories to be told about healthy Mormon mixed faith marriages. And so, and we may even interview some of the same people because we swim in a relatively small pond. But we just want to spam the world with good role models for healthy mixed faith marriages. It's a win win for everybody. So if you are in a healthy, successful marriage, Mormon mixed faith marriage, and you haven't already reached out to us, or even if you have reach out to us, email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we would love to consider you guys to be interviewed to tell your story of how you've made your Mormon mixed faith marriage successful. So I think that's the introduction. This is gonna be visual and so we have some PowerPoint slides. So if you wanna check out our YouTube page, we think this is gonna be at least posted to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube page. It may also be Post Mormon Faith Crisis YouTube page as well. And this audio is going to be jointly released on the on the Mormon Stories and the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast audio streams. And of course you guys are welcome to share it as well as you want. So thanks everyone joining us live on Facebook. We really appreciate the support. We know a lot of tightropers are probably going to be tuning in. Tightropers are the name that, that Kattie and Allan used to refer to their wonderful audience. And I learned last episode that that comes from the movie the Greatest Showman. The Greatest Show, Is it? Which one?

6:08 Allan Mount Greatest Showman.

6:08 John Dehlin Yeah, and Margi and I love that musical as well. So that's enough of the intros. So without any further ado, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast. Welcome to the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. It's good to have you guys.

6:23 Allan Mount Yeah.

6:23 Kattie Mount Thank you so much having us back.

6:26 Allan Mount It's an honor to be the first returning guests on Mormon Stories ever. It's never happened before, I understand.

6:33 John Dehlin Yeah, no, you're the. You're the first couple to return the weekend after your move.

6:39 Allan Mount See if you add enough details. We're the first at something. Everyone's the first at something.

6:43 Kattie Mount That's right.

6:44 Allan Mount That's right. No, thanks for having us. We're excited to dig in.

6:46 John Dehlin Yeah. And folks really loved our interview last week, and I did, too, and it was so epic that we had to punt. But I'm glad we're going to be able to give a good two solid hours to this topic. And we also want to welcome or invite our Facebook live listeners to post their stories, their questions, their comments, and we'll integrate them into this discussion as well. Also want to encourage you guys to please share this interview on social media. Let other people know, hey, you know, there's this cool interview on Mormon mixed faith marriages. Please share it on Facebook and on social media so we can have as many listeners as possible. That'd be great. All right, so let's begin. How do you guys begin this presentation on counseling Mormon mixed faith couples?

7:34 Allan Mount How did we start it at the conference? We were so excited, first of all, to just be invited to participate at the conference. We had probably what, 20 to 25 couples in the audience with us. And a lot of what we started talking about was what we'll skip today was our story. So we started by telling a little bit of our story. Those that have listened to our podcast are probably sick of that by now.

7:59 John Dehlin Give them the few minute version. Just for those who didn't listen to the four hours. But we were just tuning into this. Give them the high level version.

8:07 Allan Mount I believed and then I didn't, and we're making it work. That's the super high level version. A lot of my faith crisis had to do with loss of my father, which opened me up emotionally to look at some truth claim issues which led me down the rabbit hole. And a common tale with its own personal twists and turns. Right. That's a decent, decent summary.

8:33 Kattie Mount Yeah, that's a decent summary. And I'm still in. I'm the primary president and I have been for the last three years, and him going through this. So I've been doing that ever. Ever since the start of it.

8:48 Allan Mount It's probably worth mentioning because we're about to start talking about some of these lessons learned that we've talked about on our podcast. Why you started the podcast?

8:57 Kattie Mount Oh, I started the podcast because I didn't feel like there's a roadmap and there weren't any resources to help those in my position. Felt like there was lots of support on Allan's side, but not really any for my side. So then I brought the idea to Allan, and now here we are a year and a half later, doing the podcast and sitting down with John. So we've reached the top. I think you're the top, John. You're the top, John.

9:29 John Dehlin For now. For now, I'll take it.

9:30 Allan Mount First, we're working on overtaking you.

9:33 John Dehlin You could do it.

9:33 Kattie Mount We're working on it.

9:34 Allan Mount We're working on it.

9:35 John Dehlin I'll be thrilled. The more the merrier.

9:38 Allan Mount Every episode, we start with a little catchphrase, and we take turns saying it. But every episode, we say, hey, welcome to the Marriage on a Tightrop podcast. I'm Allan.

9:47 Kattie Mount And I'm Kattie.

9:48 Allan Mount And we're still married. That's our. That's our little catchphrase. We've received a little bit of a few complaints, but we want to make. I mean, it's supposed to be a very. This is a very difficult situation to find yourself in. And so right off the bat, in every single episode, we try to not make light of a difficult situation, but to keep it light, keep the conversation light, focusing on positive things, and remind everyone, like, hey, we can make this work. So what we want to talk about today is some of those things that we've learned, mistakes that we've made that hopefully, if we can share, other people don't have to make them in order to learn from them. That's really the hope that we have for these next few hours.

10:29 John Dehlin All right, let's dig in.

10:32 Allan Mount All right, so getting off of that title slide, do we have a volunteer to read this Brene Brown quote?

10:38 Kattie Mount I will, Kattie.

10:39 Allan Mount You got it. Go ahead.

10:39 Kattie Mount Okay. Yeah. This quote is by Brene Brown, and she says the best marriages are the ones where we can go out in the world and really put ourselves out there. A lot of times we'll fail, and sometimes we'll put it off. But good marriages are when you can go home and know that your vulnerability will be honored as courage and that you'll find support.

11:01 Allan Mount Yeah, that. It's that last part of that quote that we. We really wanted to start the presentation

11:06 John Dehlin off with that your vulnerability will be honored as courage and that you'll find support. Wow, that's a really good succinct, you know, summary of what mixed faith marriages need.

11:20 Allan Mount Right? We do. We agree on everything, Kattie. No, we don't.

11:25 Kattie Mount We don't.

11:25 Allan Mount We don't. And that's. That's all right. The, the quote doesn't say anything about agreement or make being on the same page. Doesn't have to mean that you agree with everything, but your vulnerability will be honored. So we can jump to that. The next slide, which bas basically is just an introduction to the lessons learned with a huge fat asterisk. And John, I think it's appropriate if you read that asterisk. It's on slide. It's the slide that says section three, lessons learned with an asterisk.

11:53 John Dehlin All right. It says, these have been our experiences. We aren't licensed professionals, just a couple of crazy kids willing to tell their story in a super public way.

12:04 Allan Mount Yeah, so we're not. You are. So as we go through this, when we presented at the conference as well, Natasha, Alfred Parker was in. In the audience. So that was very helpful. Anything that we, that we talk about on our podcast, we try to preface it with we're just sharing our lived experience. This may not be what you experience. And go to a professional if you really want to get down into the dirty details.

12:31 John Dehlin All right.

12:32 Allan Mount Yeah, the first thing and what we'll do is we had an episode, a couple of paired episodes about a little over a month ago, I think, where I walked through six tips for the non believing spouse. And then the next episode, Kattie walked through six tips for the believing spouse. And really every single tip is trying to build bridges between the two to help strengthen the marriage and the communication in the marriage. So what we'll do is we'll kind of ping pong back and forth and talk about these tips, and we have short little stories to tell where each of these tips came from.

13:03 John Dehlin Oh, okay. So you're gonna do a tip for a believing spouse, and then we'll do

13:07 Kattie Mount a tip for the spouse and you

13:07 John Dehlin alternate back and forth.

13:08 Allan Mount That's right. That's right.

13:09 John Dehlin Okay, That'll keep Cody busy.

13:11 Allan Mount Yes. So we're now on the the next slide, which is six tips for supporting your believing spouse. Okay, so these are the six tips that I would give to the, for lack of a better term, non believing spouse or the transitioning spouse to support their believing spouse. We talked about some of this last episode, but the first would be Use language of what works versus doesn't work. Instead of true and not true or right and wrong. Using language of, for example, going to church like this just, it does not work for me. It's so painful. Is a lot healthier in a mixed faith marriage than turning to your spouse and saying, I cannot support an organization that has lied and, and forced me to serve a mission when I didn't want to, or it was false pretense. There's a right or a good and a less good way of talking about what works for you. So that language is super important.

14:10 John Dehlin Yeah. So, so in a. And let's just back up for a second, like, and you're probably going to get to this. One of the hardest things about a mixed faith marriage is that it's the non believer that broke the deal. Most Mormon marriages are entered into under the understanding that both are going to be orthodox believers, that you're going to be committed to the church until you die, that you're going to have lots of kids, they're going to go on missions, they're going to marry in the temple, and that you're going to have family meeting and scripture study and be a righteous priesthood holder slash relief society person or whatever the female equivalent is. And that you'll end up being grandparents and serving missions. And it's always the non believer that breaks that deal. And so it's really interesting. We're starting with the believing spouse and we're starting by saying you're going to have to reconsider sort of the true, not true or the kind of the binary worldview. Right. That all the world's either, you know, things in the world are they're true or they're false, that things are good or they're bad, that they're right or they're wrong. Now, is there, is it intentional that. Allan, you're, you're speaking about the tips for the believing spouse.

15:20 Allan Mount So the tips are actually for the non believing spouse, but they're for supporting the believing spouse. Okay, so the tips.

15:26 John Dehlin Okay, got it.

15:27 Allan Mount Yeah. The tips are. I'm speaking in the episode, it's a solo episode, and I'm talking directly to the non believer on how they can support their believing spouse.

15:34 John Dehlin Would it be bad if we, if we did them together instead of alternating back and forth? Tell me your logic in that.

15:39 Kattie Mount No, that we can do that.

15:41 Allan Mount Yeah, it was just a presentation style so that one person's not speaking for.

15:45 John Dehlin So I'm gonna incorporate you both. But I think it might be easier for our listeners if you're okay.

15:49 Allan Mount Yeah, that's fine.

15:50 John Dehlin If we go on a block.

15:51 Allan Mount Okay, that's fine.

15:52 John Dehlin So I like it that. Okay, so these are tips for the non believer.

15:57 Allan Mount Correct.

15:57 John Dehlin And I like that we're starting there because it's the non believer that broke the deal. Right, Right. It's the non believer that changed. Now, of course, as someone who's. Who has been a non believer. Right. I understand. I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of. I don't think you've done a bad thing. I don't think you need to hang your head in shame. At the same time, I have this philosophy and I want to see if you've already got this in your slides, that there is a. I like to tell nonbelievers when I counsel mixed faith couples that they have a little bit more of a burden or an onus or responsibility than the believer. Do you want to fill in the blanks or do you want me to keep talking?

16:39 Allan Mount No, go ahead. That's. No, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

16:42 John Dehlin Yeah. Well, tell me why and then I'll. Because it's more the interview of you than me.

16:45 Allan Mount Yeah. I mean, a lot of non believers would say, I didn't choose this. I didn't choose this to happen. I wanted to stay. And while that certainly is true, the change is happening to me and it's being forced upon her.

16:59 Kattie Mount Yeah. So I think that when you. When Allan came to his conclusions, he did so in more of a natural way. You know, he went down the rabbit hole and he studied and then he finally came to his conclusion that all of these things added up. He decided that he can no longer believe in that. When the non believing spouse uses language, especially to the believing spouse that says, you know, you're wrong, that's actually not truthful. I haven't been able to come to any sort of natural conclusion. Things are being thrust upon me or thrown at me, his opinion and how he feels. And that can be really harsh, in my opinion. And so him saying things like, well, this doesn't work for me. This is hard for me. That type of language helps me to try and understand rather than feel attacked.

18:03 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's great.

18:05 Allan Mount I think. Go ahead, if you. No, fine, I'll go. I think that some of the difficult things for the non believer that is leaving is thinking about and wondering what people are thinking about you. I mean, I was in for 35 years and so the reasons why people leave the church or they're lazy and they want to sin and they now they want to drink alcohol and. And they just don't want to go to church anymore. They'd rather go hiking or play sports or whatever it may be. And so I personally feel like I want to very actively be an example that does not fit those descriptions. I want to be an example. Take the burden, like in your language, John, take the burden on myself to show neighbors, friends and family that it's not quite as simple as you think. It's not clear cut and it's not all on me for the reasons why I've left. It's not what you may think.

19:05 John Dehlin Yeah, I love it. And I think what I was trying to get at just as a framing for these six points, is that I believe that the non believer has a bit more of an onus or a burden to be a little more compassionate, to be a little more patient, to be more flexible in how they approach. Because even though it's not their fault, even though they're not a bad person, even though they're following integrity and honesty and truth, they're the ones who change the deal.

19:30 Allan Mount Right.

19:31 John Dehlin And so I like that we're starting with recommendations for them because, you know, you've had months or even years to work through your stuff. By the time your believing spouse knows that you're going through a hard time, it's going to be kind of newer for them and it's going to be a shock and it's going to be hard and frankly, they're going to perceive it as a bait and switch that you married me, we had this deal, these covenants were made for eternity, and now you're breaking it. And so it's easy for the nonbeliever to get caught up in the anger and the frustration and the resentment and the feelings of betrayal and shock and all that stuff and want to go crazy in their life, but also be crazy impatient with their believing spouse. And I like that. I like to make that call to the non believer. Chill out, take an extra dose of patience and compassion and empathy and realize that you're going to need to maybe even burden a little bit more of the responsibility in these early phases while your spouse is just like trying to orient themselves to this completely new, shocking, devastating in some ways, reality.

20:50 Allan Mount Yeah.

20:51 John Dehlin Now am I overstating that, Kattie, or does that resonate with you?

20:53 Kattie Mount No. Yeah, you're right on the money.

20:55 John Dehlin Yeah. Okay, so this first bullet point then is. Is basically saying non believer, take a different approach instead of, you know, adopting this binary worldview. And it's all a cult and it's all false and. And it's not true and it's wrong. I could almost argue that's playing into the church's paradigm, the orthodox religious paradigm of seeing the world in black and white.

21:21 Allan Mount Right.

21:22 John Dehlin And part of the beauty of a faith crisis or a transition is to see the world as a multicolored spectrum anyway. But aside from the fact that we can see the world in more than just black and white, it's just not useful to focus on. You're wrong and the church isn't true and I'm right, it's not useful. So focusing instead on what. What works. I think that's a great suggestion.

21:50 Allan Mount Yeah. The quick real world story that is pretty recent. Just about a month ago, Kattie's sister had a baby blessing. And even attending for an hour can be difficult for me still. So when we went, I went to support the family and went in there, and you can imagine sitting there, they call for the baby to be blessed. And what's going through my mind, all the men are standing up, they're walking up to the front, and I'm not. I'm sitting there with all the women and children. Nothing against women and children, but I'm the only guy standing or sitting there. And then the testimonies start after that, and they're saying things and I'm just putting my head in my hands, and all of a sudden it's, I. I couldn't be there anymore. I had to leave in the middle of sacrament. So the point of telling that story is one you don't have. Don't feel like everyone has this figured out or that just because we are vocal about it on a podcast means that we don't have any more problems about it. It's a daily thing, and it still happens. She had a. Her sister had a mission reunion yesterday.

22:54 Kattie Mount Farewell.

22:55 Allan Mount Excuse me, Mission farewell yesterday. And I went, and it was a lot better than the baby blessing. And it was good. It was a good thing. The baby blessing experience taught me something. After the baby blessing, I talked to Kattie and my message to her wasn't, how dare they bless a baby with a fake priesthood. That was never a thing. That wasn't the story. It is so hard for me to be in there knowing or feeling and thinking like your mom or your sister or whoever is going to be looking at me going like, well, he should be up there. And. And these messages that are being talked about, you know, from the stand are super difficult for me. Like, it's just hard and it Hurts me to be there had nothing to do with true versus not true. And full credit to Kattie.

23:44 John Dehlin She.

23:44 Allan Mount She apologized and we'll actually talk about that. That's one of her, one of her tips is how she reacted to me bringing that up.

23:51 John Dehlin I love it. So. So I often talk about anger being a secondary emotion, that, that it's natural to be angry. Anger is healthy. If you go back to the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast, we do a whole episode series on, on coping with. With emotions and on the grieving process, which includes anger and what we say back then and what we'll say repeatedly is that always under the anger, there's either fear or sadness or disappointment. And what I just heard you say, Allan and Kattie, I want to get your feedback on this. If you speak from the place of anger as the non believer or the believer, it's the church is wrong and the church is bad, and you don't understand me. And the church is a bad experience. And it's just making the believer feel what Kattie?

24:42 Kattie Mount Yeah, I feel bad, bad, disappointed.

24:46 John Dehlin Disappointed. How about defensive?

24:48 Kattie Mount Defensive? Yeah, I've. There are many times where I doubled down on my stances because things were being talked about in a heated way.

24:58 John Dehlin Yeah.

24:59 Kattie Mount So it really puts up a wall.

25:02 John Dehlin So when, when Allan goes to instead, this makes me sad, this hurts me when I go. Or this type of experience makes me feel sad or hurt. What does that do for you?

25:16 Kattie Mount So it definitely gives me more compassion for him and how he's feeling. It makes me, my senses, very aware and heightened because I will hear the messages that I think about in his lenses and through his ears. I'll hear them and I'll feel bad that he's sitting there listening to them because I know how much they hurt. And so definitely using language that describes feelings versus anger helps in the situation.

25:49 John Dehlin Yeah. Those primary emotions. Let me ask you this. What we're basically asking this first bullet is for the non believer to move away from language that reflects this binary worldview. This true, false, good or bad. Many people associate orthodox Mormonism with the that binary worldview. True, false, black, white, good, bad. How do you feel about that worldview? Do you see the world now in black, white? And I also had a listener who just said, Kattie, how have your beliefs changed, you know, since Allan's gone through his faith crisis? But just going back to sort of a targeted question, is it, are you still in that binary worldview, black, white, good, bad, false, true, or have you moved to a different place now where you kind of. Because if we're recommending to non believers to not speak from that standpoint. It assumes that you're not only in that sort of black and white worldview anyway. Does that make sense?

26:48 Kattie Mount Yeah. There definitely has been a paradigm shift for me as well. Later in the slides, we'll talk about embracing the gray, because there is a lot of gray. And before, I saw things very black and white. And so now that I feel like I understand more, I have compassion. I can. I can see both sides. I can also say the church still works for me, even though it doesn't work for him.

27:14 John Dehlin And that that's you using that same language Allan's recommending. I love it. Okay. That's a great first bullet. Thanks for letting us kind of frame it a little bit.

27:23 Allan Mount No, I love it. I love it.

27:24 John Dehlin Okay.

27:24 Allan Mount All right. Number two, ask your spouse what they value about their participation in the church and then support them in that. So that goes right along with what Kattie just shared on. It still works for me. So there was a moment last summer when we were in the backyard on our patio. I was a little frustrated that I was alone every Sunday and that the kids and Kattie were going to church every Sunday. And I just. Just let it out and just, why can't we just go on a hike? Why can't we just, as a family, go on a hike? Why does it always have to be church? Why do it always have to be alone here? And we had had that conversation a couple times, but this one kind of came out in a panic, panicked way. And Kattie's response. Kattie's response was, you know, I love serving in primary, and primary, to me, is how I experience the divine, and that's how I serve God. And for whatever reason, it didn't bounce off my ego shell. It. It sunk in. And at that time, I just thought, who am I to want to strip that away and take that away from her? And then she very logically said, why can't we do both? Church is only two hours now, now especially, so it's a lot easier now. But why can't we do both? We'll go to church, and I'll experience what I need to experience there, and I'll serve God and I'll serve the kids. I would rather have. I would not rather. Well, what's the right way to say this? I am glad that Kattie is the primary president. I think that she is amazing at it, and I trust those kids in her hands more than anyone else's. So I don't want to take that away from the kids either. I think she provides a lot of value for them. So that it really sunk in of just ask the question directly, what do you value about your participation in church? And then help help with that. Putting videos on thumb drives is one thing that I do for Kattie.

29:18 Kattie Mount Anything that has to do technical.

29:20 Allan Mount Yeah. And so I've got this lesson and I need help with this tech support stuff, getting a video on a thumb drive or setting up a laptop or whatever it may be. And for me, that's easy for me to say. I can support you in that because you've told me that that's important to you.

29:37 John Dehlin Mormon stories. We often reference Dr. Dave Christian's presentation that he gave in 2011 about the two different approaches to Mormonism. One is the validity perspective, which is it's either true or false. But there's also the utility perspective, which is does it work or not? And what this bullet speaks to me about is tapping in. And it's often the male on average tends to have more the validity sort of perspective, and the female, on average, tends to have more of the utility perspective. And what I'm hearing this bullet basically say is tap into your spouse's articulation of the validity. No, the utility, because that's really what it's all about. At the end of the day, we're just all trying to survive life. And if the church helps you be a happier, healthier person, a parent, a spouse, a human, if it helps with your anxiety or depression, if it just makes you happy, like you said, why would you want to take that away?

30:39 Kattie Mount Right?

30:39 John Dehlin So, so Kattie, tell us really quickly, articulate, other than serving in primary, what, what do you value about attending church? What are the things that you really get get from it right now?

30:49 Kattie Mount I would say I have always valued community. That's a big thing to me. And I'm a really extroverted social person. So having that like, built in community has always been so helpful to me.

31:05 John Dehlin Are you like, when you go to church, are you talking to everybody and saying hi to everybody and like, you kind of like the life of the party? Social media butterfly.

31:13 Allan Mount People love her.

31:15 Kattie Mount Yeah, I, I right. It would be, it would be hard. I recognize that in the neighborhood I live in, in the schools that my kids attend, that there is an that community is built in. And we have plenty of friends who are not in the church, who live in our neighborhood, who we play with and we do things with. But I also know that having that added piece of the church is important for me and for the kids and so that's a big part of it. I like, my love language is service and I find a lot of joy in serving others and I find a lot of joy in helping. And so that, that's a big thing for me also. And you know, there, I think music speaks to me and I love, I love Mormon music. I've always listened to Motab or whatever it may be, whatever it is uplifting on Sundays. And so that really speaks to my heart too. And I think the other thing is people's personal stories. When I hear someone talk about their life, I like hearing about it. And I think that that's something very unique to Mormons. You know, you, whether you agree with what they say or not, every week they stand up and they talk about something that was hard for them. They share something that's personal to them and that really, I think helps me. We've been to a few different churches where we've heard sermons and they are, they're awesome. There are a lot of good pastors out there, a lot of good sermons out there, and they prepare well. But I think there's something to be said about letting people just talk from their heart. So. So I get a lot out of that.

33:08 John Dehlin And let me just ask you how, where you've evolved in your faith right now, how important is it? Do you even think about the church in terms of like, true, false. Like church is true, Church is, you know, do you even think about it that way? A natural evolution is just to say the church is good or the church works for me, not the church is true. Do you characterize the church as being true?

33:32 Kattie Mount Now that's a good question. I.

33:36 John Dehlin Is that even important to you?

33:38 Kattie Mount I don't. I. It was important to me. It was absolutely important to me. I don't know that I like will say the church is 100% true. I don't think so bad.

33:52 John Dehlin Right.

33:52 Kattie Mount I think there's good and bad with everything. Yeah. That you can say that for any church. And I think there's doctrine that I still find really beautiful and things that I still have a hope for. So.

34:06 John Dehlin Yeah. Yeah.

34:07 Kattie Mount Again, yeah. Embracing some of that gray.

34:09 John Dehlin And it's so interesting. Sometimes non believers are just like, no, it's either true or false. And if it's true, I'll give it everything. But if it's not true, then we need to burn it down. And that's fine. If that's a perspective, it's probably not a useful perspective in a mixed faith marriage. It's certainly not. But also it's not a respectful. It's one limited perspective that doesn't respect another perspective, which is all institutions are flawed. There's no such thing as a perfect country, no such thing as a perfect marriage, no such thing as a perfect church. So all we have is to deal with institutions and organizations that are imperfect. This is the one that calls to me. This is the one that speaks to me. This works for me. And honestly, I meet so many people that are just like, I don't care if it's true or not. And can we as non believers be tolerant to the fact that some people just don't care if it's true or not? If it's good, if it's useful, that's enough for them? And can we as non believers get comfortable with that?

35:13 Allan Mount Right, right. I can. I can. I would still attend if. If a lot of the focus was on good versus true. I would absolutely be there. And I'm hopeful that at some point that will be the case. I think there are a lot of wards that are better at that than others. All right, number three.

35:32 John Dehlin Sounds good. Yeah. Ask your spouse what they value about their participation in church and support them in that. I love it. Okay.

35:37 Allan Mount Three, ask what their fears are with your newfound beliefs and validate what they say. I think this one needs to be asked often because it's going back to those primary emotions. Right, Right.

35:47 John Dehlin Instead of fighting about truth claims, what do you do?

35:49 Allan Mount Yeah. We were at dinner on my birthday last year, and I asked this question to Kattie of what are your next fears about this whole journey and this whole process?

36:00 John Dehlin And what'd you say?

36:01 Kattie Mount I think I said alcohol.

36:03 John Dehlin What have been your biggest fears?

36:04 Kattie Mount I think alcohol, that's a very common. Was number one.

36:07 Allan Mount What else?

36:09 Kattie Mount Oh, that you would stop going to church.

36:11 John Dehlin Okay. Did he stop going to church?

36:12 Kattie Mount Because at that point I knew that he didn't believe and it was hard for him, but I was so afraid to be. To be stuck at church on the pew with four kids and all, like, all of the very judging eyes and comments that would come my way, I didn't want that because I don't. I don't like attention that way.

36:31 Allan Mount So I think some of the. The jud. And really it's more like the. The pity looks, not so much judging, but just like, are you okay? And that can really set you up.

36:41 Kattie Mount Or the comments that people say, oh, your kids will thank you for this one day, because I don't actually know if my kids will stay in the ch one day or you're doing Your best. I know for some people those types of comments are helpful. For me, they were not.

36:59 John Dehlin Or what if they're like, we're so

37:01 Kattie Mount sorry that I've gotten that many times.

37:04 John Dehlin What's offensive about that?

37:06 Kattie Mount Oh, because. Well, yeah, it's offensive because it assumes that our marriage is in a bad place.

37:14 John Dehlin Yeah, it. It assumes what's implied about Allan.

37:16 Kattie Mount Yeah, it assumes that he's gone off the deep end and now I'm stuck dealing with everything else.

37:21 John Dehlin You may as well be like a drug dealer.

37:22 Allan Mount Right, Right.

37:23 John Dehlin Or a convict.

37:25 Allan Mount I haven't tried that one yet. I don't think I'm going to go that way. I don't think I'm going to go that way. So, yeah, her answer was alcohol and church. Church attendance. That was March of 2018. So fast forward a year and a half almost, and guess what? I no longer attend church. And I have tried alcohol. And those things were not taken lightly, especially considering that's what she requested. But here's the kind of the, the interesting point of that is that the things that are concerning for her and you can certainly of course speak for yourself, it changes. And that's why you need to have the conversation often. Because over time she saw a year and a half to two years of church attendance just was not working anymore. It was so, so draining and so hurtful for me to continue to beat my head against the wall at church every, every single Sunday that when it finally got to that place where I said, I can't do it anymore, she got it. It was nine months after that conversation at Sawadi. A good Thai place, little plug for them.

38:31 John Dehlin I've been there.

38:32 Allan Mount It's great.

38:33 John Dehlin Was that hard to get to the point where you could release him from attending church?

38:40 Kattie Mount Yeah, I think I need lots of notice because if you listen to our last interview, I like my to do list. I like know what, I like knowing what's coming. I like having an itinerary. So talking about things ahead of time and not having them sprung on me was really helpful for me. I thought that was something that I needed.

39:01 John Dehlin So how are you handling church now alone? Is it hard? Is it?

39:06 Kattie Mount I know. I think we're used to became okay. It's fine. Yeah.

39:11 John Dehlin A couple other common fears are like you're gonna sleep around, you're gonna cheat on me or you're gonna end the marriage. Did you ever have those fears?

39:18 Kattie Mount Certainly, yeah. We had, we had a listener who to be. Well, long story short, their spouse left the church and then found someone on the ex Mormon subreddit and started going back and forth with them and they ended up together. And that is. Was a huge fear of mine because. And we'll talk about it in my slide. But one of the things that you're concerned about is when you can't hear the information that he wants to express, he'll express it to someone else. And I was afraid that there would be some of that emotional connection with someone else.

39:58 John Dehlin Yeah.

39:59 Kattie Mount And that's. That really, that was in the back of my mind. And we talked about it a lot.

40:05 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah. And I'll just reiterate. Talking about fears, number one, it gets to the primary emotions instead of again, things like anger, which is secondary and it's peripheral. It also helps to build that intimacy. So if we go back to that Brene Brown quote, right. Where, where she basically said at the end that your vulnerability will be honored as courage and that you'll find support. This is where mixed faith marriage can become this huge gift because as you start going to your fears and your sadnesses and your insecurities and you start being vulnerable with each other, then you get to know each other at a more intimate level. You show up for each other, you give each other that support, that unconditional love. And sometimes for the first time in a multi decade marriage, you can start really showing each other really solid, strong, compelling emotional intimacy which. Which can take your love to a whole new level. So it's not just a good tip. It's actually like the bedrock of a really strong marriage. When you get comfortable talking about your fears with each other, being vulnerable, but then supporting each other, validating each other, knowing that you're there for each other, that becomes a great foundation for a better marriage, not a worse one.

41:22 Kattie Mount Right.

41:23 John Dehlin So you kind of can't lose if you go to the fears. I love that.

41:27 Allan Mount Yeah. This plays into.

41:30 John Dehlin And I love valid the validate what they say, talk about that. Because I think validation is huge and it's something that we're so bad at.

41:38 Allan Mount Right. You know, I think the alcohol one is, is a good example of that. Where when she expressed that I thought I don't at the time it was like, I don't really care. My curiosity is not worth more to me than validating what she's saying. She's really afraid of that. And at this point trying alcohol is pretty low on the list. And it's just a curious thing. It's not like I will not be held back, I will be authentic. I didn't feel that way at the time. And so the way that I was able to validate, I feel her concerns there was not jumping into something that wasn't killing me anyway. And I mean, that was March 29th of 2018, and it wasn't until April of 2019 that I had my first drink. Which leads to the next point of don't hide. Behavioral changes. Yeah, that's a big one. A big part of mixed faith marriage is trust. You have to trust each other. And if you're hiding changes, you're breaking trust.

42:36 John Dehlin And the dilemma is that, you know, you lose your faith, but you're scared to tell your believing spouse because you're scared they'll leave you, you're scared they'll divorce you, you're scared they'll take the kids, you're scared they'll tell your parents or your siblings or your in laws or whatever, you know, and, and all of a sudden you're just petrified about, or you're worried about your job or whatever it is. And so you don't tell them what's really going on. And then like you said, you start confiding in a woman that you knew from high school or a co worker or, you know, whoever, and you start these behavioral changes. Secretly drinking at work or on the road, secretly taking your garments off on the road, whatever it is you do, privately, secretly. I've even had people tell me they stopped paying tithing but didn't tell their spouse and made their spouse think that they were still paying tithing. And there are all sorts of problems with that. What are the problems from the believing standpoint? What's the problem with the non. You can see why a non believer would hide their behavior, right, Kattie?

43:41 Kattie Mount Yeah, because I think that the first initial reaction that I have is anger and it comes from fear, just like you talked about. But when something is hidden, it amplifies that, that fear because everything that you are fearing is happening and your partner isn't communicating that to you. And so when. And it breaks trust. And it does so over and over and over again. So you have to be very open with any changes, anything that you do. We've, we have hard, fast rules in our marriage about alcohol and about a few other things. So if he's gonna drink, have a drink with a friend or he just sends me a quick text, hey, I'm gonna have a drink with a client, then I know, then I don't sit and wonder, and I question and I worry about it.

44:36 Allan Mount And it's not a permission thing. Like I don't, I don't feel Like I need her permission to do anything. It's just a. I understand and I get that she, that alcohol particularly is a hot topic for her and I understand that I'm a 37 year old that has never drank before and that's a whole new world to me as well. And so if I can be very, very open with her about that behavior, there's, it's a little less, there's not as much tension, if any, when it comes to that topic. Fair to say.

45:08 Kattie Mount Yeah.

45:09 Allan Mount So, I mean, real quickly I'll tell the, the first drink that I had, it's, it's annoyingly cute. I think the story is super cute because we had just accepted our offer, had just been accepted on the home we just moved into and I closed the deal I'd been working on forever at work. We found out both things within a few hours of each other. So I was super, super excited and I said, hey, tonight let's go out on the trampoline, put a blanket out, look at the stars and we'll celebrate. I'll bring two different kinds of liquids, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. And she's like, okay, all right, well, let's see how that goes. And to me that was like, ooh, doors open. Okay, this is going to be a thing. So I ran across the street to my, to our neighbor's house who they're not members of the church, never have been knocked on their door. They've been a part of this whole journey for me because they've just been a sounding board of like, hey, this is what's happening now. This is why I'm home on Sunday, blah, blah. And they gave me a little gosh, I called it a vial in the, in the Thrive conference. And everyone made a mini bottle, I

46:10 Kattie Mount think is the correct term.

46:12 Allan Mount Yeah, Vi, they gave me, it's like a monalchemist. They gave me a, a mini bottle of Fireball, which is cinnamon whiskey that's

46:20 John Dehlin so popular with post Mormons.

46:22 Allan Mount That's what I've heard. And I didn't know anything about anything at this point. They just said, here, just do this real quick. And they gave me two mini bottles. And so that night we go out into the, onto the trampoline. I pour her some Martinelli's, I pour myself some, some Fireball and we make a toast and we say congrats. And I, and I drink it and I kind of, I just talked her through. She asked me a couple questions. How does it taste? I'm like, well, it's cinnamony. It's really sweet. It's like a melted atomic fireball candy. And then I swallowed it. And how does it feel?

46:54 John Dehlin Well, it's a little.

46:54 Allan Mount It's burned in my throat a little bit. And now I feel it warm in my chest a little bit.

46:59 John Dehlin It's like NyQuil, right?

47:00 Allan Mount Yeah, yeah, Robitussin. And she was like, okay. And I wanted it to be a non event. I didn't want to it to be this big thing. So I didn't like try to kiss her with alcohol in my breath afterwards. I really was. Wanted to be super careful that this was a. Just like a. Oh, that happened. And then we moved on. And so right after that we, we got off of the tramp, went in and watched an episode of Brooklyn Nine Nine. I brushed my teeth and then I kissed her. And so hopefully that that event was a healthy way to introduce something that could be very difficult in a relationship.

47:33 John Dehlin So how was that for you, Kattie? Like, that's, that's one of the huge barriers. Some of the things that induce panic are like taking off your garments, trying alcohol, trying marijuana, and then anything sexual porn or anything around sexuality. Those are some of the really big ones. And I, you know, I'll admit I haven't tried alcohol yet. It's been 18 years since I lost my faith. I still haven't tried it. So I want to support people who just decide they don't want to have that in their lives. But I'm glad we're talking about it for, you know, for a believer, that's one of the big ones that induces panic. But it's also something a lot of post Mormons just really want to try. How did you get over that panic? How did you work through that?

48:12 Kattie Mount Well, I mean, when we first talked about was over a year.

48:18 John Dehlin Okay, so a year helps.

48:19 Kattie Mount It was over a year. Time helps. I, we early on and this is not anything bad, but Allan would make sort of joking comments about me joining him and that put undue stress and pressure on me and I. And that made me want to reject it even more. And then we had this conversation that I said, I don't, I don't like the pressure I feel even with the joking comments. It doesn't, doesn't make me feel good. I don't want it. And so he stopped making the joking comments. And then I kind of felt like it was time. He had waited a full year. He wanted to try it. I knew he did and he didn't. He did so in a way where it felt safe. It was just within our own home, just the two of us. It wasn't a big deal, and that was it.

49:14 John Dehlin So a couple things I hear is be patient. Give it time. Don't rush your believing spouse with all these big changes. You've gone your whole life, many of you, not all of you, some of you, or you've gone a decade or two potentially without any of these things. Do you really need to rush that right when they're dealing with some of the really hard stuff? Give it time. Be patient, be respectful, communicate directly. Don't pressure the spouse. And then when it's time, when you've got them to settle, because you got to remember, a faith crisis triggers that amygdala. It triggers that fight or flight, you know, neural system that is literally designed to, you know, save us from a lion that's running after us, trying to eat us. A faith crisis triggers that in the brain of the believer. So, you know, you get dumber when that. When that amygdala is triggered, you lose 10 to 20 IQ points. And while they're in that, and sometimes they're in that state for weeks or months, you don't want to add complexity to that. So just have compassion, give it time. Be respectful, don't pressure. And in their case, they work through it. Other relationships may be different. I love that. I want to add a couple extra things about these behavioral changes.

50:34 Kattie Mount Yeah.

50:35 John Dehlin Some of the other reasons why you don't want to hide behavioral changes. One is that you don't want to grow apart. You know, if you think about two boats that are traveling together, and then all of a sudden, one kind of secretly and quietly changes course, and it's never discussed. If you just think about time, if you let too much time go, weeks and then months and then potentially years, where you're secretly thinking and feeling things and secretly behaving in certain ways. Sometimes over time, you can grow apart to the point where that bridge is too wide once it's time to actually come clean. So you don't want to grow apart if you value your relationship. And that's a risk when you're having secrets. So secrets are bad. But the other thing is just very basic. A believer's always going to experience a faith crisis of their partner as a betrayal of trust. Even though you don't feel like you've betrayed anyone's trust, they're going to experience it as a betrayal of trust. That's enough of a thing that you have to restore and work on. Even though it's not fair. You don't want to add other feelings of betrayal on top of the one that you're already dealing with. So it's easier to just rip that band aid off, have the hard conversations get on the same page. Come up with your new value system. We talk about this. Are you guys going to talk about values at some point? Come up with your new value system. Agree on the behavioral guidelines for now, they can always change. And don't betray their trust because you've got enough work to do to figure out the religious stuff without having a double whammy on the believer's perspective of feeling betrayed. Is that fair to say?

52:15 Allan Mount Very.

52:16 John Dehlin Yeah.

52:17 Allan Mount Yeah. All right, number five, recognize the good in the church when you see it. Post Mormons are real good about finding bad in good announcements. There have been a number of, just in the last couple of years, a number of changes that overall the change is a very good thing, but we can pick apart every single little thing that is said or done by the church to find something bad in it.

52:43 John Dehlin Yeah, it's almost like if they're lgbt, unfriendly, we'll roast them. But if they make accommodations and reverse the November 15th policy, well, then they're just, you know, they're just flakes.

52:55 Allan Mount Yeah, exactly.

52:55 John Dehlin It's. It's like the church can't win. We can't ignore, you know, acknowledge anything good sometimes.

53:00 Allan Mount Right. And there certainly are situations where, or people that I can talk to where I would break down the LGBTQ change and say like, well, now they said this, but it's that. But with my spouse. We were actually together when that change was made. We were just headed over to like a thing at the kids elementary school and my KSL alert went off on my phone and I read that this has been reversed and we celebrated together. Just like, how great is this? This is a very positive, this is a very good thing. All of the point by point critical analysis can happen outside of this conversation, but to each other. It was a celebration. It was like, good for them, good for them. Wish it wouldn't have ever been in place in the first place, of course, but it's gone. And that's good.

53:46 John Dehlin Kattie, why is that important for Allen to be able to acknowledge the good that the church does? Why is that important to you?

53:53 Kattie Mount I think that I take things so personally that when he acknowledges that something went right, that makes me feel good. It also tells me that he can think critically. He can be both supportive, but also critical of the good and bad things, and he can recognize the positive things happening. So I think that that's a really helpful thing for me to look at him as saying that he can take a step back, aside from his feelings, and look at things in a critical way.

54:26 John Dehlin I love that. I love to tell non believers, you know, model the behavior and the respect that you seek. If you want them to be able to see the challenges with the church, if you want them to be able to empathize with the things you're struggling with, but you won't move an inch to ever acknowledge the good of the church, you're basically being a hypocrite. You're basically saying, come my way, but I'm not going to in any way come your way. But if you model objectivity, if you model openness, if you model a balanced perspective, you're actually modeling for them the behavior that you are seeking from them. And so you just. You never want to become the monster you ran from. You always want to make them feel safe. That's the biggest tip that I always give people with believing family and friends, make them feel safe. And a huge way to make them feel safe is to be objective. Like you said. That's so brilliant. If you, as a non believer can be objective and see the good and the bad, you're going to help them feel safe to be objective as well. So many non believers are wanting their believing spouse to consider the evidence to see the problems with the church. That requires objectivity. So model it.

55:41 Allan Mount Right. Yeah. Then the last point goes along with that. Don't dogpile. If your spouse is ever critical of.

55:49 John Dehlin That's. Yeah, that's tempting, though, because it's like, yes, they're finally.

55:52 Allan Mount I think they can talk about.

55:53 John Dehlin So talk about that.

55:54 Allan Mount So, yeah, yeah. I mean, very early on, if my Rabbit Hole experience, I discovered Lindsay Hansen Park's polygamy podcast. And I binge listened to that thing so hard, and I just wanted Kattie to hear this and listen to it. I pushed and pushed and pushed, and that was. I mean, that doesn't work. So she was not in his place, in a place to listen to it. But, man, it was probably a year and a half later, in the middle of 2018 or so, she had a close friend recommend that podcast. And she was then in a place where it was being recommended by someone that was not me that she said, I'm gonna listen to it. And after a few episodes, she came to me and she expressed like, oh, my goodness, a few of the things that she had learned and how difficult learning these things were. And if you. I mean, from our Last interview, John, My, my number one shelf item when it comes to church history was polygamy. And so hearing Kattie say some of the things that I went through a year and a half earlier, it would have been so easy for me to just.

56:54 John Dehlin Yes.

56:55 Allan Mount And try to connect the dots. And. Yeah. Because if, if that's true and what you're seeing now is true, then that means this and that means xyz. But I'm thankfully at, by that point, I was in a place, at least in that moment, that it was more just a message of, I am so sorry that that's gotta be so hard to learn these things. Like, I'm, I'm sorry that that's, that that's hurtful. And I, and I understand. I'm so sorry.

57:22 John Dehlin Why is that important, Kattie?

57:24 Kattie Mount Well, he's validating how I'm feeling. He's not dogpiling and said, well, if you, if you listen to this episode. Yeah, right. You should listen to this. All he's doing is acknowledging my own hurt. He's empathizing the hurt that he also felt. And he is not encouraging me or discouraging me to keep going the route that I'm going, or he's letting me decide on my own in a natural way whether or not I want to continue to listen to this podcast or not. And that's huge.

57:56 John Dehlin Yeah. So a basic human desire is self actualization, sort of like free agency, if you want to call it that. Self determination. Nobody wants to feel like somebody else is telling them what to think or believe or to do. And even less, nobody in a marriage wants to feel like their love is conditional. So you, as a non believer should get that you want to be loved regardless of your belief or non belief, regardless of your church participation or non participation. Well, guess what? The believers feel the same way. They want to be loved whether or not they believe, supported whether or not they. And they don't want to be nudged in any direction, just like you don't. So don't do it. Just be there for them and emotionally validate what they're going through. And don't pile on and sort of say, good, now that you've got doubts or now that you have problems, let's take it the rest of the way because that's just going to make them withdraw again into fear instead of feeling safe and comfortable.

58:50 Allan Mount Yeah.

58:51 Kattie Mount Yeah, that's fair.

58:52 Allan Mount Absolutely.

58:53 John Dehlin I love it.

58:54 Kattie Mount All right, we're switching gears.

58:55 Allan Mount Yeah.

58:55 John Dehlin Okay.

58:56 Allan Mount Obviously the, it's not comprehensive. The tips.

58:59 John Dehlin Keep going and keep going. Those are good. And we'll do other episodes on this

59:02 Allan Mount too, so you can read your notes.

59:03 John Dehlin A couple comments from listeners Valerie writes, my husband and I have never known each other as well as we have had to since my faith crisis. It forced us to get to know each other on many deeper levels than we had before. So that's Valerie just reiterating this idea that the mixed faith marriage is actually a super fertile ground for a stronger marriage than you've ever had. That won't work for everybody, but it does work for those who learn good tips, who get the support they need, and who navigate it with grace. Jody says, love these podcasts. Janet says, it is a respect thing. Respect is always important. Paul writes, katie, will you let Allan come to my house to party one night? This is Paul Pratt.

59:47 Allan Mount Of course it is.

59:48 John Dehlin Do you know who that is?

59:49 Allan Mount Yeah, he's a co worker of mine and Kattie actually went to college with him.

59:53 John Dehlin Kattie, he's expecting an answer.

59:55 Kattie Mount Am I invited?

59:57 Allan Mount If Kattie can come, we're in.

1:00:00 John Dehlin I love it. And then I'll add one more Janet writes, Allan and Kattie are such a great example of a mixed faith marriage. I appreciate hearing both sides so that I can learn. That's great.

1:00:15 Kattie Mount Shapes oh society Love loves their shapes.

1:00:22 John Dehlin Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com.

1:01:05 Kattie Mount It's all just poison in disguise.

1:01:12 John Dehlin Tickets for Life, candy coated, poison in

1:01:19 Kattie Mount the sky,

1:01:22 John Dehlin Teacups full of candy. Co.

0:03 John Dehlin Shapes.

0:05 Kattie Mount Oh, society loves their shapes.

0:09 John Dehlin Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

0:56 Kattie Mount In the sky.

1:02 John Dehlin Now we're on to so what's the next part Kattie?

1:05 Kattie Mount So the next part, we called it six tips for this for supporting your non believing spouses. So I'm talking to the ladies or the men out there who have, who are my position, who are believers and what they can do to help their, their spouses, their non believing spouses get through this really difficult time. So my very first tip is to allow your spouse to be part of groups that help them. This is a hard one. This is a really hard one for me. Early on I didn't realize that Allan was a part of the ex Mormon subreddit group. I didn't really know what Reddit was. And then I was on his computer and I saw the tab and I pulled it up and started reading what was on there and it made me mad. Yeah, I was why?

1:50 John Dehlin Why did it make you mad?

1:51 Kattie Mount Because I felt like it was so much anger and people just complaining and I understand now, I understand now why they probably only had one place to air their feelings and it was that one place was on the ex Mormon subreddit. So I understand why now. But knowing that Allan was conversing with other people, his brother, his brother was out of the church and that was hard for me. So he had him as a support he would get on these ex Mormon subreddits and then he also had Facebook groups that he would was a part of and in my mind, Ex Mormon Stories podcast community.

2:32 John Dehlin There's thoughtful transitions, there's Mormon Enlightenment, there's a Facebook group, Mixed faith Marriages, Mormon mixed faith Marriages. There's Waters of Mormon, there's a lot of really, really good support groups on Facebook and I'm also a huge fan of ex Mormon Reddit. But for, you know, all for different reasons we keep going.

2:50 Kattie Mount Right. But for the believing spouse our idea or I thought is that they to these websites or groups and then inside of these they get more information or they become more angry or they talk about things that are very personal between he and I. And it's broadcasted to everyone in those groups. And that was really hard for me. And at first I was pretty upset he was in any groups whatsoever. And it's not that I didn't want him to have support, but I wanted to. But I wanted to be the support. I realized, I don't know, how long ago was it, six months or so after? It wasn't. It wasn't until like six months ago that I said to him, I am so grateful for the Facebook groups and the ex Mormon subreddit group because they were there for you. When I mentally could not be there, I could not validate his feelings. I couldn't talk about everything he was learning, but those groups online could. And so I think something that's important for us believers to know is that just like we need support, our spouses need the support. And so letting them, allowing them to connect with people in their same position is crucial for them. They also want to not feel alone. They also want to feel validated. And especially in those really hard first few months when you can't even talk about it, he was able to talk about it with, with people like minded. So that was really helpful.

4:31 John Dehlin So how do you, I imagine there are all sorts of fears that you can have, right? I imagine, you know, again, it's like all these, all these people are angry and bitter or, oh, he may find someone that he likes better than me, or, oh, they're just, you know, often it's like, oh, they're just reinforcing all this negativity. Or, you know, I want him reading the scriptures, not, not reading rants on ex Mormon Reddit. Like, you know, those are the normal fears. And again, he'll, he'll. The fear of him developing intimacy or finding other people. I want to be there for him. He's going to other people. How do you overcome all those fears? Or even that he'll find some other woman and run off with her. You know, how do you, how do you handle those fears to get to the place where you want to let him have those associations when from a believing standpoint, you just easily might feel like, no, no, no, I want him with the home teachers or the, you know, the ministers. I want him with other believing people. I want him at home with me. I don't want any negative influences.

5:37 Kattie Mount At the beginning of this, I said to him, I want you to have the right, the right people to talk to. So I encouraged him to talk to the bishop and the stake president and Anyone who he thought would be helpful for him, and he did. He took my advice and he read things that I suggested and he talked to people that I suggested. And I. I really appreciated that. I saw that. I. I don't think I really ever agreed with him chatting with people online, but voicing and communicating the fear that I had to him helped. And I don't want to speak for Allan, but I think it put it in his mind so he knew how I felt about things. I don't know if that was like a barometer for you, but like, when I would say, it's really hard for me because I feel like you're going to make a connection with someone else, someone of the opposite sex, and then. And then you'll have this emotional connection, and I'm not getting that with you. And he was really good to say. Kattie, I don't converse directly with anyone. I talk in these groups. Do you want to talk about that?

6:49 Allan Mount Well, yeah. And it's. We've always kind of had a. I mean, my phone is right here. My Facebook is logged in on every single web browser. There's no hiding of anything. So while I don't feel, I would hope she doesn't feel the need to go on and log into my Facebook and look at messages. I'm not trying to delete anything. And she can go and do that. That's completely fine. I think just over time, it's not a one conversation thing. Over time, she sees that my behaviors are not secretive. My behaviors aren't. I'm not looking to go out and form these friendships. And there's a constant focus on just being open with each other. And so I think that's. That's what was helpful for me, is hearing the concern for her and then just validating back to her and saying, here's my phone. I mean, I'm not hiding anything. You might find a text from John Dehlin. Every six months, you may find a text with my brother that's critical of the church, but that shouldn't be a surprise. That was helpful.

7:46 Kattie Mount And I think, though, too, what was key was he was willing to take my suggestions as well as find his own path. So while he found a lot of the Facebook groups really helpful, he took my suggestions in talking to the bishop and stake president and he went and did it. And so I saw effort on his part. I think that's another thing is when I can see his patterns of behavior are to try to do everything he can to validate how I'm feeling and What I would like out of this experience, I'm more likely to get moved past some of the other things that I have fears about.

8:24 John Dehlin I'm also hearing Natasha Helver Parker's voice in my head because what, what this represents, the shift that a Mormon, that a Mormon mixed faith marriage introduces is sort of a new type of marriage. The old type of marriage is. And this won't be everyone's case, but I'm just going to stereotype a typical orthodox marriage. It's like the church tells us how to behave. We're going to follow what the church teaches. We're committed for life because we made that commitment back when we first got married. And we don't really need to talk about anything because we all know what the game plan is. We just need to follow it. Right? And, you know, we police each other. We're in the role of policing each other, making sure that neither of us makes a mistake. And then if somebody makes a mistake, we, you know, jump down on them like a duck on a June bug. And we enforce the rules until they get back in line and then we give them that love again and then everything's great. Well, I don't even know if that is a successful paradigm for marriage or how accurate it is, but what I am going to say is a mixed faith marriage presents an opportunity to shift to a new type of marriage, which is different from a lot of those things I just articulated. Instead of a plan being given to you, you as a couple have to come up with your own plan. Instead of your values being handed to you and the proclamation on the family, basically the church telling you what a family is and what it means and why you should or shouldn't care. You have to come up with what a family means. You have to come up with what your boundaries are. You have to talk about it. That's different. It's a more intrinsic personal paradigm to marriage. Instead of something that's been handed to you, instead of it being something where these rules you're sort of handed to and then you obey, you're having to negotiate that. That builds communication skills. It builds trust in each other. This is something that may seem scary at the outset, but if you can both lean into it, and specifically if believers can lean into this, what you'll see is your marriage starts strengthening. The previous paradigm is that we're committed to each other forever because we made that commitment once. There is a chance that Allan could blow it and cheat on you, or there's a chance that you could on Allan find Some believer, like, the truth is we were never protected from that before. They're committed orthodox Mormons that cheat on each other all the time. Noah Roshetta teaches us, and Buddhism teaches us that structures and attempts at control are illusions. There's always the threat of infidelity in or out of the church. So instead of just like, we made this commitment once and now we're stuck with each other, this new approach is, I'm going to choose you every day and I'm going to fight for you every day and you're going to choose me. And each day we're going to wake up and choose each other. And at least from the non believing standpoint, it's because you don't know if you have an afterlife and you don't have that eternal commitment. But what you do have is wanting to make your current life the best life that you can. And I just have to be honest. I care more about my marriage now than I ever did and I think Margi does too. But it's not because we made some commitment 25 years ago. It's because now we value making our marriage the best that we can in the moment. So there are these shifts and again, the policing. Instead of like, I loved it when you said, alan, I don't know, it's not about asking permission from her, your health, your sexuality, yours too, it needs to be yours. But by talking about it, by coming to an agreement, it's a healthier paradigm because like Natasha always says, nobody wants to be married to their dad, no one wants to be married to their mom, no one wants to be married to their teacher, no one wants to be married to their boss. And if you're, if you were in an orthodox marriage where one spouse was policing the other, that's just not a healthy environment for cultivating intimacy. So if you can move away from that policing, parent teacher control environment into where you just, you, you share how you feel, you negotiate, you talk, you come to an agreement, and then these two adults are standing solid, side by side, entering into an agreement of what their boundaries are going to be in their relationship. And it's consensual and it's positive and it's personal. Again, that's just a much healthier paradigm. It's better for sexual intimacy, it's better for emotional intimacy, and it's better for the long term prospects of the marriage because nobody wants to be married to their mom, dad, boss, teacher. That's just not a healthy environment for romance, for that sort of emotional intimacy. And most importantly, no one wants to be in a marriage that's rooted in conditional love, where I love you if you do X, Y, and Z. Nobody wants that. So in all these ways, this just is. The prospects are for a much stronger marriage. Kattie, has that been true for you?

13:30 Kattie Mount Yeah. And I think that when you practice some of these really hard tools that we're using to communicate, to talk, to allow each other space, to come up with our own language when it comes to our marriage and our common core values, you become stronger because you are deciding together and no one's telling you what to do. And that has definitely been apparent in our marriage is we've said so many times, how in the world does a faith crisis bring bring you closer together? And it has, because these are all tools that we didn't have before that we now have in the belt that we can practice every day.

14:19 John Dehlin So you feel like your marriage is stronger now than it's been?

14:22 Kattie Mount Absolutely.

14:22 John Dehlin You can look into the camera and tell the believers.

14:25 Kattie Mount Yes, absolutely.

14:26 John Dehlin Yeah. And you just, you would never think it's just not logical to an orthodox Mormon mindset that a marriage can be improved by one person losing their faith in the church. You wouldn't think that's possible. Like, the orthodox mindset is follow the gospel. That's the only way to improve your marriage. Both of you follow the gospel.

14:48 Kattie Mount And I think that you don't know until you're in it. But for me, when I feel what I believe is the hand of God in it and telling me that everything we're doing and the road we're on is the right road and we're moving in the right direction, I mean, I think, I feel that that strengthens me, and it tells me that, you know, everyone has their own path. And it's, it's not about black and white anymore.

15:13 John Dehlin Yeah. So love it. Okay.

15:15 Kattie Mount Okay. So the next tip I have is, number two, acknowledge you're not the only one hurting. And so I think that we tend to take on this mantle, that this is hap. As believers. This is happening to us. You are breaking the deal. I am so hurt by you. You're going to have to spend a long time making it up to me.

15:37 John Dehlin Right.

15:38 Kattie Mount Right. I mean, that's how I, that's how I felt buying couches, which has yet to happen. But I, I, I feel like we really are the martyr in this case. We feel like the martyr, and we're so upset and furious with our spouses, we can't look past our own hurt to acknowledge their hurt. And it Took a long time. And Allan, I'm sure there were lots of things. Our son received the priesthood, and his brother gave it to him. And I wasn't in a place to acknowledge that that was hurtful for Allen. And it was actually his mom who acknowledged it, who said, this must be so hard for you. And I felt bad because I didn't. I hadn't even really thought that. It wasn't until I could get through some of my own anger that I could realize, oh, this is hurtful. He's struggling. He has had a paradigm shift. His world has collapsed, and he is now feeling the loss of his spiritual community. Everything that he's ever known or thought, he is experiencing grief and loss. And he's going through this just like I am, but in a different way. And so when my sister's baby was blessed and I knew he was hurting, as soon as we got home, as I got to my sister's house or we got home, I said, tell me how you're feeling, what happened? And walk me through those emotions. And I allowed myself to be open enough to hear how that hurt him. And I think that that was helpful for both of us. It hurt me. And I mean, it hurt me in other ways. I was feeling, oh, this is so sad that my spouse can't participate. And on his side, he was feeling, everyone's judging me because I'm not participating, because I don't believe in this anymore. And so we have to hurt together. There are many times where you've just cried and held each other and he was hurting and I was hurting for different reasons. But you have to recognize that within your.

17:56 John Dehlin With your spouse, how did you get to that point? I imagine that from the believer's perspective, there's this maybe subconscious fear that if I'm empathetic, if I connect with their sadness, if I connect with their hurt, if I listen, if I just start listening, they may infect me with doubt, they may infect me with disbelief, or I. My heartstrings may get pulled too much to the point where I start considering their. Their point of view. And I don't want to lose my faith, which is most precious to me. And so I just can't ever go there of caring about. And I'm just hurting too much myself. So how does a believer resolve those concerns? How did you do it? How would you recommend to a believer to do it when there's so much fear and so much at stake?

18:50 Kattie Mount That's a good question. I think that for me, and everyone's different but for me, it took time. It took me seeing over a period of time that Allan wasn't changing, doing this to hurt me. Nothing that he did was, was to hurt me. But he would prove to me over and over and over again that he still loved me, he still wanted in, he still wanted to be part of our marriage, he still wanted to be an active participant in our children's lives. It was those steps that helped me feel more compassion. And I think for me it just, it took time and it's usually not right away for most people. Sometimes just takes the non believer to continue to show that they're still there no matter what. So for me it was an issue of time. I needed time to process my own feelings and see him in a different light.

19:55 John Dehlin Are there any gospel principles, Jesus example.

20:00 Kattie Mount Yeah.

20:01 John Dehlin Scriptures from the New Testament that you can draw on to, or modern statements by general authorities that you can draw on to give you encouragement to be empathetic with, with your non believing husband?

20:15 Kattie Mount Well, I mean I think Christ is a perfect example. You know, he loved, he loved those who didn't love themselves. He loved those who were rejected and you know, he sat with those who were in pain. And that's what he asks all of us to do. And it's, it's amazing to me, you know, I feel like through his example I've been able to see myself in a different light, my husband in a different light and know that we are all broken, we are all struggling with something in some way and it's. And if I'm trying to emanate Christ's qualities, I have to come to terms with my own fears and doubts and listen to my spouse and sit with him in his pain. Brene Brown is great because she talks about this a lot. Sitting in your pain and recognizing it and then taking that and moving forward. And I think that that's what we've been able to do. Do you want to add to that?

21:28 Allan Mount Well, you know what, what this is making me thinking about is actually one of my in laws. His name's Reagan. So Reagan is the husband of my sister Charlene, who hopefully is watching, she watched the whole last time, the whole interview last time. But Reagan was, was a bishop before their ward merged and they, and then he was released after a few years. But just a few months after we talked about this last time, their son came out as gay. And my sister was the first to say, I can't support this church with what they teach about my son. And when I heard that, and she said that her husband was getting to a place to agree with her. I wanted to talk with him, so I called him. And on the phone, I just started gushing to him about church history, because I was in the rabbit hole at the time, reading and reading and reading. And I was just saying, reagan, this is so great. You're supporting your family. And how awesome is that? And have you read this? And have you read that? And have you listened to this? And there's an episode of this. And he just stopped me. I was just a million miles a minute, he just stopped me and said, allen, stop. All you need to know is that my family needs me right now. Your sister needs me, my son needs me. It's not even a question. I'm going to support them. And that was it. And for me, that was a beautiful, beautiful example of what matters most. And he's always been a great example for me. And in that moment, he was a good example to look at Kattie and say, what does she need most? I'm committed to her. And seeing from a very recently released bishop being able to put that in perspective. He clung to his family. And I feel like that's similar to what you just explained, Kattie. That's what Christ expects of us is to cling to our families.

23:22 John Dehlin Is that possible for a believer to put the spouse over their faith or the church? Or do you see it differently? But I can just see that as maybe a false paradigm, which is like, it's either the church or my spouse, and I'm sticking with the church first. Do you see it a different way?

23:45 Kattie Mount I do see it a different way. There are no guarantees in life. And I didn't think that this was the plan for me, but I would be foolish in thinking that the grass would be greener if I leave this situation we're in, there's no guarantee that down the road, when I marry another priesthood holder, did he quote that he won't leave the church, be a, quote,

24:08 John Dehlin porn addict or whatever it is, anything.

24:10 Kattie Mount And it was in the last interview we talked about our stake president a little bit, but he's the one that said, katie, I would never tell you to leave your spouse over something like this because, you know, in. In the sea of daffodils, there's the red flower, and this is the red flower. And that you're focusing on this one thing. He's a good man, he treats you well, he loves your family, he is committed to you and the kids. Why would you leave that?

24:36 Allan Mount He's very handsome. I think he said he was Very handsome.

24:38 Kattie Mount He also said you were very funny. No. So when you look at it that way, you step back and you look at it that way. It's hard for me to understand why someone would leave their spouse. Just purely based on church and religion.

24:57 John Dehlin Right. I love it. Okay, so acknowledge. You're not the only one hurting. Acknowledge their hurt. I love it.

25:03 Allan Mount Acknowledge their hurt.

25:04 John Dehlin It is very Christlike. How would Christ respond to a faith crisis?

25:08 Kattie Mount Right.

25:08 John Dehlin He would say, I'm so sorry, tell me more. I'm so sorry you're hurting. How can I help? So you're basically saying, be Christlike.

25:15 Kattie Mount And he would do what number three says. He'd be patient. And that's a really hard thing to do. And to be in this, in this process, I think that with, with most problems that happen, we didn't with anyone because we wanted a resolution before we told anyone. A lot of times you want an outcome and then you can go back and say, well, this was really hard and this is why. And this is the outcome that we came to. Well, with a faith crisis, there, there's really no resolution, there's no destination. And so in this marriage that we've been in, timing has had to do with a lot of that. And I feel like sometimes we try to rush to get where we're going, but you will lose of the important lessons learned in the process. It's the process that matters, not the destination, I guess is what I could say.

26:09 John Dehlin And we can be so destination minded.

26:12 Kattie Mount Absolutely.

26:13 John Dehlin Orthodox Mormons.

26:14 Kattie Mount Absolutely.

26:14 John Dehlin It's all about the social kingdom and getting there.

26:16 Kattie Mount Right? Right.

26:17 John Dehlin No, no empty chairs. Right?

26:19 Kattie Mount Right. And we have to be okay with knowing that this is going to be the process that you go through. And maybe there is no destination, but hopefully you take what you learn along the way and that you use that to help you Also.

26:32 John Dehlin Eternity is long, right.

26:35 Kattie Mount It's a long time.

26:36 John Dehlin Who knows what happens in the eternity, right? Why sabotage something that could be really good now when you have a whole eternity to work out whatever differences there are? So be patient. Be patient because eternity is long.

26:51 Kattie Mount Right. And this process can go quick for some and for others it can be years and decades long. And so just keep going. Be patient with what you have now.

27:03 Allan Mount Yeah, we have a listener that's in a bishopric just recently and hey, been in a mixed faith marriage for 12 years and nobody knows but my spouse and I'm looking at that and going, I couldn't get four months in without start making comments in Sunday school and I gotta tell my parents now and I gotta tell her parents now. And. And he's been in it for 12 years and now he's called into a bishopric and he's a full non believer. And it's just everyone has their own. Their own story, their own path, their own journey. And I know that's very cliche, but don't look at all of those around speaking specifically to the post Mormons. Don't look at everyone else around and feel like there's some barometer or some goal that you have to achieve. It's not a, oh, when did you try coffee the first time? Because now you've done that. Now you can try alcohol. Now you can try marijuana. Now you can. Or your memberships and records still on the church. You get to decide what. What's best for you in that case. And that's where the patience come. Comes in. In communication with your spouse.

28:05 John Dehlin I love it. Yeah, I love it.

28:07 Allan Mount Number four.

28:08 Kattie Mount All right. Number four, allow your spouse to respectfully speak their truth. I have a very vocal spouse, and some of some people don't, but I have a very vocal spouse. And this is a hard one for me because I am not one to stir the pot. I don't like to talk religion, politics, nothing, especially online and right now. I mean, that's what our. That's our world. Instagram, Facebook, sex, religion, politics. That's right. It's all on social media. Right. So Allan would post things. And, you know, it's hard for me because he's friends with a lot of my believing belief. He has believers on his side also, but specifically my believing family or my believing friends, my believing relatives. And when he posts things, it can be so hard because I don't want. He does so respectfully, but I just don't want to engage in that type of conversation. Conversation. It's just not for me.

29:10 Allan Mount That's why you prefer Instagram?

29:12 Kattie Mount That's why I prefer Instagram because it's, you know, it's a picture and a. And a little blurp. But I have a hard time with Facebook for that reason. And Allan had posted something and he had gone back and forth with someone that I cared for. And it was. It was like just. It made me angry. It did. I was really upset about it. And so I deleted my Facebook account. This was almost a year ago, and I deleted my Facebook account. And I decided that I could not be on Facebook because I couldn't read what he. He was posting because it's just hard for me to read. And like, again, he does it in a respectful way, but it's hard for me to see that you can block me.

29:57 Allan Mount You could still be on Facebook and just block me.

30:00 Kattie Mount It's also a huge time waster for me. So it's like the black hole I just get sucke in. Anyway, so I told Allan that he asked me why I, I deleted my account and he asked if it was because of him. And I told him, well, yeah, partly it is because of you. And he said something, he said, katie, if I can't say what I want to say, if I can't post my feelings, I will shrivel and die. And that really hit me hard. And I, I decided you're right. You should be able to have a platform to say what, what's in your heart or what you're thinking or feeling, despite how I feel about it. And so I didn't say anything after that. And I'm not, I'm still not on Facebook. But I think that that's a little

30:57 John Dehlin bit

31:00 Kattie Mount just, I think it's more helpful for me to not have that in my life right now. And that's okay. But allowing him to be able to speak up and speak his own truth is really, that's something he really values. And I recognize that.

31:17 John Dehlin And this, we're going to talk about children later, but that comes in not only in Facebook and social media and immediate and extended family and friends, it also is children. And I can just say that it's so natural in a mixed faith marriage for the believer to be able to say and do whatever they want, but the non believer to have to button it down, pack it down, stay quiet and not express themselves. And not only is that a surefire recipe that suppression, it's a surefire recipe for resentment and anger. It's also a surefire recipe for depression and anxiety and even physical ailments like autoimmune disorder or other types of physical manifestations of internalized stress. Nobody is meant to be inauthentic and to pack down what they're thinking and feeling. So it has to be with time, with patience, with tact, with diplomacy, with negotiation. It has to be that both sides get to speak their truth in life to each other, to children, to parents, to siblings, to believing family and friends on social media. It has to get to that point or else things are doomed, both for the individual health of the people involved and the relationship. And so the trick is how to, how to negotiate that. Right, Kattie, Is it, is it like, I'm just, I'm going through this and again, I'm thinking you Kind of are an A plus believer spouse in terms of the, the, a lot of the people that I work with because a lot of people just can't, A lot of believers just can't get past the fact that they've fallen, their disappointment, they, they broke the deal, they're sinning, they're dark, they're not following the path. And just this idea of not only is like being patient and looking at them with love and validating them and acknowledging that they're hurting too. All that's super hard for many believers that I work with to do, to let them speak openly and honestly. Like, I'm just thinking there's a lot of believers, how do we, how do we, how did you, how do they get to the point or they can not be just angry and viewing their spouses, non believing spouse as a huge disappointment. Like it's basically saying we need to, we need to look at them with humanity. But sometimes a believer is going to look at a non believer as lower than humanity, as like evil. Right?

33:59 Kattie Mount Yeah. And that's so, that's really hard for me to understand. It's, I think like if you're going to practice what you preach, if you're going to want, if you're going to be like Christ is, you're going to allow space for your spouse to think differently, to speak differently, to act differently, you know, within reason. Right. But I think it goes back to our common core values. We talk about this, we talked about this in the beginning. What do you and I still value and we can come together on. And respect is one of those. Honesty is one of those. So I know that in his dealings with other people or, you know, to my family or whatever, whatever it may be, I know he'll do so in a way that would represent me as well. Hopefully, hopefully not always. I don't always agree with things he says. Right. But I don't, I don't know how else to put it.

35:01 John Dehlin Yeah, it's this term of differentiation within Mormonism. Sameness equals good. And what we know in the animal kingdom, genetics, whatever it is, that there's an argument even culturally, who wants to eat, you may love hamburgers. Who wants to eat hamburgers and fries every day? Spanish food, Italian food, Chinese food, you know, Vietnamese food. Diversity is the spice of life. Genetic diversity, biodiversity, you know, gastronomic diversity, whatever it is, diversity is good. And differentiation is this idea that we're different, but the differences that we bring to the marriage and to the family actually add to it. Maybe one's more Extroverted. Maybe one's more introverted, maybe one's more spiritually minded or faithful, maybe one's more scientific or analytical or logical, or maybe it's the reverse, who knows? But the point is, what if we can get in our marriage to a shift where we're seeing differences as healthy, not as a threat? And that's kind of what you're saying is you can represent faithfulness, he can represent something else. But somehow that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It can just be two different approaches that both bring something useful, right?

36:15 Kattie Mount Yeah. And the thought I have with this, I think of seek for understanding. All of us seek to be understood, but few of us seek to understand others. And I think that in your mixed faith marriage, when you seek to understand why they feel the way they do and where they're coming from, then you can move past your own fears and your own feelings of insecurity.

36:41 John Dehlin I love it.

36:43 Kattie Mount Okay, my next tip goes. These all are interconnected, right? So number five is to try to be flexible. And so to give a specific example about this, we have tried to have Sundays dedicated to Allen. We call them Allen Sundays. And then other Sundays, most Sundays, which I'm at church with the kids. And when we know that there's a difficult topic coming up, specifically this Sunday or the Sunday that this example is from, is when they were gonna be talking about the proclamation for the family, that's a really difficult subject for our family. And we decided, well, we're going to have Allan church that day. And so we decide, okay, this is what we're going to do. We are going to do some sort of service project. We'll do something as a family, something that will strengthen us during the time that we would be at church.

37:35 John Dehlin So you're willing to miss church?

37:37 Kattie Mount So. Well, let me, let me move on with the story. Okay, so this was, this was the first Sunday that we purposefully did, tried to plan something that was not related to church. So we decided there was a woman, older woman, who went to a care facility and she'd recently moved out. And we thought it would be nice to bring her flowers and cards and go and visit her. That would be a really good thing to do with our time. And then we thought, then we'll go for a hike afterward. So we had the kids write cards to her and we had some flowers and we drove out to West Jordan to see this woman. Well, during the entire card writing, the kids fought. They fought all morning. They fought in the car all the

38:27 Allan Mount way, cards out we had to pressure them into everything. I wanted bacon for breakfast, and we gave them cereal. It was just. Everything was a struggle that day.

38:34 Kattie Mount Everything was a struggle. It was such a struggle. And we get to the house and guess what? She's not home.

38:40 Allan Mount She's not home.

38:42 Kattie Mount And we thought, gosh, we endured all this whole morning thinking we were doing this great thing service wise, and she's not even home. We left the flowers and the cards on her doorstep. And then we turned around and we started to drive home. And Allan and I are just kind of fuming because it's been a bad morning. It's been a bad day. The kids have fought the whole time. And our oldest, who's 13, caught on. And he says to the other kids, you guys shut up. Because mom and dad will never let us stay home from church again if we keep fighting. I mean, he totally got it. And Allan and I, we had built up in our mind and we were hoping that this way of staying home from church and doing something else was gonna be so great that we would continue to maybe go back and forth on Sundays where we would stay home and do something. Allen wanted one Sunday, and then the next Sunday I would take the kids to Chur. And we thought that this was gonna be such, like the pinnacle experience. Well, it was a really crappy experience. And the kids fought and we sent them straight to their rooms. We said, well, let's see, that took up about an hour of church. And for the last hour of church, you will be sitting in your rooms and reading a book. And so they all went to their rooms and sat in their rooms. And Allan and I shook our heads and we said, well, what do we do here? Because we thought that this might be a good thing, and it wasn't. So how. How do we move forward with this? And. And we, I mean, we just sort of laughed about it and we said, well, you know, maybe we should just drop him off at church and then, you know, have.

40:24 Allan Mount Two of us can go do something.

40:25 Kattie Mount The two of us can go do something. But I think being I was flexible enough, I got to a place where I. I knew that something was going to be hard. I said, let's try something else out. It doesn't. It didn't work out, which is fine.

40:41 Allan Mount Doesn't always work.

40:42 Kattie Mount It doesn't always work. But church doesn't always work either. Sometimes it's hard, and sometimes I leave because. Or church. Church, right at Father's Day, you know, I knew Allan didn't want to be there. I wasn't gonna make him go on Father's Day. But I also knew it would be hard when my primary kids stood up and my own kids stood up to sing Father's Day songs and Allan wasn't there. And so we didn't go to the first hour of church, we went to the last hour of church. And so this is some of the embracing the gray. But you have to find what works for you and you don't. You can't be black and white about it. You have to be flexible. And I think at the point we are now, I'm flexible enough to know that I'm not going to put myself through something that's so difficult like sitting through a sacrament meeting, a Father's Day sacrament meeting. But I could go to the second hour and that would be just as, just, just as good for me. And some, some weeks we'll do Allen Church and we'll go to the rock church which we've been to or we'll go to Christian church. It's.

41:48 Allan Mount Yeah, it's called the well.

41:49 Kattie Mount The well, the movies.

41:50 Allan Mount Eight in Sandy. Yeah, a co worker of mine plays guitar there so we went and visited him once. I've been to Community of Christ and my, my daughter wanted to join me and she loved primary because they give her hot chocolate. Just little things like that. It just kind of experimenting and trying this and that and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and just kind of figure it out and that's.

42:08 Kattie Mount And that can be hard for the believing spouse because I think we feel like we're the ones now that have to. All of the teaching and all the spirituality now has to come from us and, and so we get stuck in these patterns of no, if we aren't at church every single week with our kids, they're going to learn, you know, they're not going to want to be there. Well, guess what? Our 13 year old Aldo ready doesn't want to be there. He doesn't. And you know, I can't force him to want to go. I can't force any of them to go.

42:38 John Dehlin Wait, we can't force people to choose the Lord's plan. What are you talking about?

42:43 Allan Mount Wait a minute.

42:44 Kattie Mount I think I've learned a few things.

42:46 John Dehlin Isn't there a story about that? My Mormon brain is reminding me about forcing one. No, no. But this is really sensitive because. And this is one of the most common issues that makes faith. Marriage comes to me as a coach and it's like, well it's a battle. It's like the believer is trying to get the kids to go to church, and the non believer is trying to get the kids to stay home. And the kids become this football where the parents are fighting back and forth. And the, the, you know, the believers often say, what kid's going to want to go to church? No kid wants to go to church. And so if I, if we let the kids decide, they're always going to choose to not go to church. And then the non believer wins and the kids leave the church. And then I'm the only one who's a believer. And I think it's important for my kids to have that. The moral influence, the spiritual influence, the cultural social influence. And so I've got to just make my kids go to church every week because if I give an inch, it's a slippery slope to them going to apostasy. That's the mindset that we're battling here. When you talk about flexibility around something like church.

43:53 Kattie Mount Yeah, yeah. And I thought that I was very orthodox and set my ways at the beginning of it, but Allan is really good at reassuring me. And he said, look, I do want the kids to go with you to church, but like our oldest, he will say things like, I'm tired. You know, he said, if it's things that, like being just lazy or tired, we'll have, you know, we can talk about it. But that's not a good enough reason for him to not go. If he says to us, well, something was said that I don't believe in, well, then we have a different conversation. And I'm flexible enough to say, recognize that if he feels that way in the future, I'm not going to make him go. Our youngest, our two youngest absolutely love church. And actually they get upset when we don't go, right?

44:44 Allan Mount Yeah, they do.

44:44 Kattie Mount Yeah. So I think that it depends on the child. It depends on the situation. Every child is so different. They handle things differently. But you have to be flexible. And you know, in your lifetime, the chances of your whole family staying in the church and your grandkids staying in the church and their posterity, it's likely not gonna happen. Right. And so my hope is that one day, if my kids. Kids decide that they are going to stay, you know, then we'll support them with that. If they decide they're going to go, we'll. We'll support them either way. They need to know that we will love them and support them however they decide.

45:24 John Dehlin Exactly.

45:25 Allan Mount That's the paradigm shift, right?

45:26 Kattie Mount That's the paradigm.

45:28 Allan Mount My goal is not to get them out. And her goal is not to keep them in. Our goal is to make sure that they understand, no matter what they do, we're going to support them and love them and try to teach them good, healthy principles.

45:37 John Dehlin That's it. That's it. I always like to tell believers and non believers, mixed faith couples. Tell the believer, I have good news and bad news. Some of your kids may stay in the church, but some of your kids may leave the church. And I say non believers, I have good news and bad news. Some of your kids may stay in the church. Some of your kids may leave the church all the time. Couples leave a religion, take their kids with them. The kids don't get quite the upbringing that they want or need. And guess what? They become fodder for missionaries of other religious traditions or Mormons. Like, ultimately, in life, you know, 70, 80% of the developed world is religious or spiritual. If you think that you're ever, you know, non believers, if you think you're just going to take your kids out of the church and raise them secular, that's the end of their spiritual, religious story, you may have another thing coming. And believers, if you think that if you just hold on to that really orthodox, fundamentalist worldview that you're going to keep your kids in the church. 50% of all Mormons raised in the US have left the church. In these days, that number is increasing. We know about the rise of the nuns, where the largest and the fastest growing religious group right now is those who no longer affiliate with any religious tradition, and millennials even more so. And so what I like to do is reassure believers and non believers. Health for your kids is not about whether they stay or leave. So many non believers are like, the church is going to ruin my kids. Guess what? There are a lot of amazing people that were raised Mormon. One of them is you, by the way. You're amazing, and you were raised Mormon. Yes, there's pain in Mormonism, but guess what? There's pain in every religious tradition. And you know what else there are secular, you know, context where people are abused and hurt. Life has suffering. That's one of the teachings of Buddhism. You can't escape it. The easy answer isn't getting all your kids out of the church and that you could all leave the church and life can unravel. And the easy answer isn't keeping them all in the church, because how many Mormons are depressed or divorced or, you know, hooked on drugs or pornography or whatever? Like, there's pain and suffering. I've good and Bad news. There's pain and suffering anywhere you go. So take that issue off the table. Some kids are going to stay, some kids are going to leave. And believers and non believers, you're probably not going to be able to control that. Here's what you can control. Okay? Your kids health and well being is not directly correlated with being in or out of the church. But I will tell you something that their well being is directly correlated with, with. Okay, it's conflict in the home. Divorce doesn't wreck kids. But you know what wrecks kids? Parental conflict. So if you truly, if you're a believer and you truly care about your kids, what you're going to do is you're going to want to create a marriage that models health and unconditional love and the healthy handling of differences, of differentiation and the healthy handling of conflict. You want to wreck your kids, make your kids footballs in a holy war of religiosity versus secularism that will wreck your kids every time. And you nonbelievers, those of you think that I just need to fight with my spouse until I can get the kids out and that's going to save my kids, you're wrong. You can get your kids out of the church, but pay a huge price in the emotional turmoil and distress and damage that's caused by you causing so much conflict in the home. So what's the best model? You guys already said it. What if you modeled a home where it doesn't matter what you believe and you're loved and accepted? What if you model whether you're in or out of the church, you're loved or accepted and that becomes what your family is about. That is the healthiest environment. And then guess what? If the kids are religious, they're loved and accepted in the home and they're celebrated and if they're not religious, they're loved and accepted in the home regardless. And if they're somewhere in the middle, same thing. And all of a sudden you've got this vibrant, healthy family where differences are celebrated and everybody feels unconditionally loved. And ironically, it's the mixed faith marriage that provides the perfect soil for modeling unconditional love in the home.

50:04 Allan Mount Yep. Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah, yeah. We sometimes we say like, we wouldn't have chosen this to happen, but now that it has, we're very grateful for the things that we've been able to learn and that that paradigm shift and what is really important is finally taking, taking hold.

50:22 John Dehlin Love it.

50:23 Kattie Mount And hopefully that helps our kids be better people and the in the Future, you know, they. I think that that doesn't do anything but help them.

50:31 John Dehlin They're going to go to universities, they're going to go to workplaces, they're going to move out of state, foreign countries. Guess what they're going to have to deal with Mixed faith work environments, mixed faith educational environments, mixed faith marriages themselves in laws, neighbors. What you want is you want to build kids that are good with everybody.

50:50 Kattie Mount Yeah.

50:51 John Dehlin What a better way to practice that than having a home where everybody's good with everybody. Right.

50:55 Kattie Mount That's beautiful. Yeah. And they feel safe and it provides a really good environment. So. All right. The last thing I want to talk about is ask your spouse what they need to feel loved. So we talk about, like, the love languages, right. And everyone has their own set of love languages. But early on, it seemed to change for me all of a sudden. Where I liked having service before. I needed verbal validation from Allan. I need him to tell me constantly he loved me, he was staying with me, he was sticking with me, he was with the kids. And I would often tell him what I needed. What did I need to feel validated in my love? He did the same for me. What did Allan need to feel validated in my love for him? That I wasn't gonna leave him, I wasn't gonna take the kids and run. I wasn't going to. To talk poorly about him to my family, to the kids, to anyone else, to the ward members, to the neighbors who asked about him. So whatever that is, whatever that love language is, it changes. It changes in the process of a Christ, faith. Christ, Christ faith crisis. Thank you. A faith crisis. So you need to constantly talk about what is it that your spouse needs to feel validated in how they're feeling or in their love? Because there's like this constant uncertainty that you don't know if you're gonna stay together. Are we gonna be able to work through this? And if you decide right up front that this is something that you're willing to work through, that you have a good foundation and you want to build on that, you have to communicate what you need and when you need it. And there are times Allan has said, in difficult times, he said, I just need a hug. I need a hug today. And I'll hug him and validate and fulfill that need that he has. And so that's an important part of the puzzle. Just continue to validate and find ways to serve and love your spouse.

53:06 John Dehlin Love it.

53:07 Allan Mount I've asked. Kattie does really good with this. She expresses interest in things that I know she doesn't care about because she knows that I care about it. So two common things. One, she will, she'll say something about the Dodgers, about baseball. I asked her yesterday, hey, guess what? Four Dodgers made the all star team. You tell me who they are. She named all four of them John.

53:31 Kattie Mount What?

53:32 Allan Mount How many Mormon stories listeners know who Walker Bueller is? Because she does.

53:36 John Dehlin That's amazing.

53:39 Allan Mount I know. See, that's, that's what tells me our marriage is going to work is she knows who this 22 year old pitcher is for the Dodgers anyway. So that, that's one thing. The other is she'll ask me probably two or three times a week. So, Allan, what's, what's going on in social media, Mormon land. And she'll ask me like, what are people talking about? And she's, she's asking because she knows I care about that and she trusts that I'm not gonna say, oh, guess what President so and so said and what everyone else is saying about that. She knows that I'm gonna handle that respectfully. But she, she, I really appreciate that because she doesn't really care about all the things that I care about, but she cares that I'd care about it, so she'll ask me about those things. Makes me feel loved, John. Makes me feel loved.

54:23 John Dehlin And non believers need to do the same thing. What if non believers could get to the place of health where they could say, hey, what'd you like about church this Sunday? Would you value in Relief Society or Sunday school or you've been studying the scriptures? Share with me something that you've been reading or in your prayers, something that's meant a lot to you. Yeah. What if we could get to the place as non believers where we were confident enough in who we were but loving enough of our believing spouse to just show an interest because they care about it.

54:54 Allan Mount Right.

54:55 John Dehlin Not because it's true from our perspective.

54:57 Kattie Mount Yep. Again. Yeah. Works versus doesn't work. It works for me. So you're going to ask me about

55:03 Allan Mount more count what worked?

55:04 Kattie Mount What worked?

55:05 Allan Mount I ask you about ward council every single week. She doesn't share anything she shouldn't. But I'm interested. Like, how are things going with.

55:11 Kattie Mount He just wants to know if we've been talking about it again.

55:14 Allan Mount I know you won't talk anyway. It's fine. I like if you would talk about me in there, but.

55:23 Kattie Mount Shapes or society loves their shapes.

55:29 John Dehlin Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com.

56:00 Kattie Mount Our Imperfections but it doesn't matter now. It doesn't matter now. It's all just poison in disguise. Teacups for love, candy coding.

0:03 John Dehlin Shapes.

0:05 Kattie Mount Oh, society loves their shapes.

0:09 John Dehlin Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

1:02 Kattie Mount Okay, so let's see the next thing. When we talked about shared spiritual languages and we talked about this, defining our family values. So sitting down and talking with the kids about what we valued, our Common Core values, what's important versus not what's not important. We had a discussion with them on Martin Luther King Day, and we talked about what's, what is good about a person and what doesn't matter about a person. And so they wrote things down like tattoos don't matter, race doesn't matter, status, money, those things don't matter. But what do they value in a person? Well, are they honest? And we talked about, we just went through a list of Common Core values that's important to do both in your marriage together and with your kids, because then you have a frame of reference to move forward with a family, and they know the values of your home. And that's not an LDS thing. That's a. You're teaching your kids to be good, moral, moral adults. And so that's something that we've done. And if you can write it down and hang it up and it doesn't, you know, we've talked to a few different people that they've come together and they've written their own proclamation and, and that seems to be really helpful for them. And we've done the same thing. So that that's something that can bring you closer together as a family.

2:31 John Dehlin The Leah and Cody Young podcast talks about them doing that. This is something that I've been encouraging mixed faith couples to do for a few years now. Yeah, you may not see church doctrine or theology or history the same way, but there's still honesty, kindness, compassion, service, love, children, family, fun, joy, creativity, health, physical health, spiritual health, whatever. Spirituality. There's so many things you do have in common, and there are so many things you can base a family on. Get clear on your family values, get your kids involved in it, write it down, post it somewhere as your own family proclamation and live by that. And that allows you as a couple to focus on what you have in common. And it gives you a direction and motivation as a family to unite and pursue something instead of focusing on all the ways you disagree and the things you see differently. Because at the end of the day, you know, whether or not there were plates, whether or not the kinder plates, this or that, polyandry, whatever the issue is, you're not going to build a life around that. You want to build a life around kindness and service and fun and joy and learning and education. And so until you get clear on your values, you don't even know where you stand. And so it's a super important thing. Values. All right.

3:49 Allan Mount Okay, Absolutely. So be deliberate, taking action. That's where we're at, right?

3:55 Kattie Mount Yeah.

3:56 Allan Mount So really what I mean by this is you can't be passive and think that everything is going to work out best. You have to take an active role in the raising of your children, in the fostering of a healthy relationship with your spouse. I think we may have mentioned this in our last interview. We've never been more, I'll use the term on purpose religious about our family home evenings as a family, since my faith crisis, really we hold very steady family home evenings and we don't always sing the hymns that I'm not comfortable with. And it doesn't always have to have a prayer in it, but we have and it is on Monday still. We have family home evening. And whether it's a motivational video that I've. That I've seen YouTube.

4:42 John Dehlin Like a TED Talk.

4:43 Allan Mount Yeah, whether it's a TED talk or it can be scriptures as well. We really want to take an active role in teaching our kids what we believe. And if there are differences in that holding space for that, I mean, just

4:58 Kattie Mount this last Monday we moved into the new house and we have three, three bedrooms and so two of the kids have to share a bedroom. So our family home evening was they had to think of the reasons why they get their own room and then they'd have to present it in front of the whole group. And I mean, it's just, it's silly, but it's just one of those things that they're gonna learn something in the process and it's good for the family to hear out others ideas and why they deserve their own room so it doesn't again, you don't have to do it the exact same way that you did before.

5:31 John Dehlin I love it.

5:33 Allan Mount Trying new things. We talked a little bit about this with the flexibility, but really the trying new things is Try it. Just see how it feels. Kattie did this with the Thrive conference. I mean, the Thrive conference was not easy for the believing spouse. And she wasn't the only one there. There was a number of mixed faith couples there, but that was out of the comfort zone of thinking, why was

6:01 John Dehlin the thought of going to Thrive uncomfortable?

6:04 Kattie Mount So I'm really good like one on one interacting. It is very. It's not in my nature to like stand in front of a group of people and bare my soul about everything that's going on. So that's really hard for me. I didn't know what to expect because it's a conference for post Mormons and so I didn't know if I would feel uncomfortable. And I didn't really actually know about the conference until Allan told me like, like a month before. And I hadn't agreed to it and he had. I had already agreed to it.

6:41 Allan Mount So it wasn't quite that deceptive.

6:45 Kattie Mount It was, it was, it was fine. It's just, I'm not.

6:48 John Dehlin It was scary.

6:49 Kattie Mount It was scary. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know how what I had to say would be perceived by someone who was in the post Mormon.

6:56 John Dehlin Yeah. What are all these post Mormons gonna think about a believer be.

7:00 Kattie Mount Yeah. Right.

7:01 John Dehlin I feel out of place. How did you feel?

7:04 Kattie Mount I felt great. It was. Everyone was really wonderful. The people who attended our class were post Mormons, but a lot of them had spouses who were still in, still believing. And so I think what they were able to listen to and talk about was helpful for them. So that made me.

7:22 John Dehlin They were probably super grateful that you were there.

7:24 Kattie Mount Well, I was really impressed by the post Mormon spouse. The believing spouses who came to the whole conference with them. I mean, I give them major props and credit because that probably was a hard experience for them. Also we joked because at the dinner, there was a dinner for the people who presented and then some of the people who attended and I ended up in the hallway talking to a few other believing spouses. And Allan's like, it's like reverse congregation. All the, all the non believers. Sacrament meeting. All the non believers are inside doing karaoke and all the believers are in the outside chatting, chatting in the foyer. But it was a great experience. It's just. It was a new experience.

8:09 John Dehlin You did something new and you.

8:11 Kattie Mount Yeah.

8:11 John Dehlin You were kind of. Yeah.

8:12 Allan Mount And it goes the same way for the non believer. Our ward asked me to just last month asked me to be the. One of the coordinators for a day of service with. For the elders Quorum. And I thought, yeah, I can do that. And so going around asking people in the neighborhood, hey, do you have any weeds we can pull or trees that need to be chopped? And meeting with the leadership to. To coordinate all of that was something that I was willing to try, and it was great. And it was super easy prayer, you know, from a hopeful agnostic. How do you pray when the. Every single time you get around the dinner table, there's a prayer that's going to be said one day? I. I just said, can I say it? And this was in. Within the last six weeks or so. Can I say it? And Kattie looks at me like, what? I'm like, I'll say a prayer. So I tried. I tried to say a prayer. And it's really hard to say a prayer without directing it at anybody, but that's what I tried.

9:09 John Dehlin You just kind of start talking.

9:10 Allan Mount You just kind of start talking. Hey. Not hey, hey, yo. They've worked something like this, right?

9:17 John Dehlin We're grateful.

9:18 Allan Mount Yeah. We're so grateful that we're here today together as a family. This food. We're so grateful to have the time that we have together as a family. We're this house that we have. It's. You're saying all the same stuff that you say in a prayer. It's more just like a vocal. Vocal meditation. I don't even know what to call it, but. And then I pulled one from. From Leah Young, where I end in the name of unconditional love. And I think that's beautiful. And so I've done that a few times in our own family setting. We've had a few friends that have come over, and I said, hey, do you guys mind if I show you kind of what I'm playing around with as far as prayer goes? And they're sure haven't quite done it in front of, like, believing family yet. And we'll see how that goes. But again, it's just try stuff, see if it's comfortable, see if it's not. If I would have. I would have really regretted not going to Kattie's sister's mission farewell yesterday because of the bad experience I had at the baby blessing last month because I had a great experience at the mission farewell. We sang God be with you till we meet again in Tongan as a family. And it brought everyone, including myself. It brought tears to our eyes. It was a really beautiful moment, and I would have missed out if I wasn't willing to. To try.

10:28 John Dehlin Love it.

10:31 Kattie Mount Let's. Do you want to. No.

10:33 Allan Mount Did I Skip something.

10:33 Kattie Mount Yeah, you did. So double click. So I think the next slide is embracing the gray.

10:40 Allan Mount Yeah.

10:41 Kattie Mount And I feel like we've really talked about a lot of this already, so it's not going to be anything new for everyone. But we talk about acknowledging the good. Allan talked about that. When good things happen. When good things happen on my side too. Acknowledge that for your spouse. We talked about, well, disagree with your own side. So Allan and I have always defended each other, each other's position. So for example, when I'm talking to a family member and they say things like, oh well, you must be so sad, or you, how sad that he doesn't believe this anymore. I defend Allen and I say, you know, I, I understand why he feels the way he does. And, and so, or my husband's awesome. Yeah.

11:22 John Dehlin And I, we believe differently. But I, I respect him and love him and think the world of him.

11:28 Kattie Mount Right. And, and you know, I, I let people know, especially in the ward or the neighborhood, that Allan is still an active participant with our family and teaching our kids. I, I defend him and he vice versa. He defends me to. Really.

11:42 Allan Mount And the post Mormon.

11:43 Kattie Mount Post Mormon grower.

11:44 John Dehlin Yeah. So if they're disparaging believers, they're disparaging who?

11:47 Allan Mount You know, I, I just wrote a. Yeah, they're disparaging her. I don't want that. Yeah. There was a post in one of the groups I'm in about gullibility and they were saying the Mormons. It was a one sentence. Post Mormons are the most gullible group of people in the world. And I immediately took offense to that. Yeah, I was offended, Elder Bednar. I was offended because. What are you talking about? I was a Mormon for 35 years. I wouldn't classify myself as, as gullible. My wife's not gullible. She's not gullible. So my response, this was my response. Where is the line between gullible and indoctrinated? Now some of the language I use, imagine this is a post Mormon group that we're talking to. Is there a line there? I was raised in the church and taught to believe all of this by my parents from a very young age. I don't feel that makes me gullible. It makes me indoctrinated. When I see an 80 year old man bearing testimony about the church, the word gullible doesn't even come to mind. I think, man, poor dude doesn't even know how indoctrinated is. He is. Then I think that's super judgy. Of me. Homeboy seems pretty happy about things. So I even catch myself in using this, this, this term indoctrinated. I literally, I've seen these in our ward. It's, it's quite an older ward and I see these. I've caught myself thinking, with testimonies being born by these older folks, like, man, they've just been trapped in this their whole lives. Then I realize they're super happy. How, how idiotic of me is it to point at them and, and, you know, smirk and, and say that they're wrong or they're this or that. They seem very, very genuinely happy. So when I come across people that are trying to point out the other side, my wife's side, and attribute some things that aren't fair to that side, I, I try to be just as vocal about criticizing that than I do criticizing the church. If they do something that I feel is wrong as well, I love it.

13:41 John Dehlin It's a very, you know, you're inching towards a very successful mixed faith marriage when you're less defending your own turf and they're less defending their own turf and instead you're fighting for their turf and they're fighting for yours. When a believing spouse says, you know what, Just stay home from church, it's not good for you, it's not healthy, and I want you to be healthy. When the nonbeliever sticks up for believers. When a kid says, I don't want to go to church, and the non believer knows it's important to the believing spouse and knows that at some level maybe it's good for the kid. The non believer tells the believing kid that they should go to church and respect their mom or vice versa, you know, if that arrogant missionary is speaking about their parent as a disappointment and the believing spouse says, you know what, your dad or your mom is a faithful, good, awesome person just because they're not in the church. When you're fighting to, to protect the other person's position, you know you're doing something really good. Yeah, I love it.

14:45 Kattie Mount Well, see, the last thing is basically don't be what you hate. Be flexible. And you know, when you, when you admit that you're wrong, when, I mean, there's many times where I've come to a conclusion that was wrong and I've had to apologize to Allan and it takes, it takes practice really. But again, that will just help you embrace some of that gray and realize that it's not just so black and white, especially for us orthodox members.

15:16 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah, don't be a Know it all. Jerk.

15:18 Allan Mount You know, that's right.

15:19 John Dehlin Believer or non believer, Right? Either way.

15:21 Allan Mount Yeah, absolutely. Trusting boundaries. So we're on to the. The next slide. Trusting boundaries. Take breaks from. So it's safe words. Take breaks from heavy topics. There's times.

15:34 John Dehlin What are the unsafe words?

15:36 Allan Mount Well, what we mean by this is

15:39 Kattie Mount if you have a code, if you need a code word, have one.

15:42 Allan Mount Yeah. And really, it's not an actual literal

15:45 John Dehlin word in our case. What do you mean, trusting boundaries?

15:48 Allan Mount What do you mean? What we mean is set boundaries and trust them. So between us, our marriage is a lot more than just a mixed faith marriage. That doesn't define us.

15:57 John Dehlin Right.

15:57 Allan Mount It's something that, especially with a podcast and talking with people about it and a lot of the date nights we go on or with couples from the podcast, it can feel very overwhelming. So many times we'll say we're going to a dinner, then we're going to a movie, and we're not allowed to talk about. We're going to focus on our relationship outside of our religious.

16:14 John Dehlin Don't talk Mormonism.

16:17 Allan Mount I'm not going to be checking Facebook and seeing social media. Yeah, exactly. I'm not going to be checking Reddit. I'm not going to be checking any of this. You're not gonna be checking Instagram and listeners that are. That are texting you. We're gonna focus on us. So take breaks when you need them. That's why, I mean, it's July 1st, so we're almost breaking the rule now, but we're basically taking July off. We're heading to Georgia next week, and we're taking July off. We're gonna enjoy our time with my family and. And our podcast and religion is gonna play a very, very minimal role as. As little as we can, we can make it.

16:52 Kattie Mount But in the beginning, too, when your spouse wants to tell you everything they've learned and it's like a. It's a word vomit. Right. Of things that they've heard and they want to discuss it. For the believing spouse, that can become overwhelming so quickly. And so there have been times where I've said to Allan, I will give you 15 minutes to say whatever you want to tell me and give me the 15 minutes and then just let me decompress and think about what you've said and then give me time to respond to you. And that has seemed to really be helpful for me to just be able to, you know, have these, like, small, small chunks at a time, because all at once can be really overwhelming.

17:37 John Dehlin I love it.

17:38 Allan Mount Yeah, I've gotten to a place where I can wait for her to ask, where I don't feel like I need to go to her with, oh my gosh, guess what I learned, or oh my goodness, guess what President Oak said, or whatever it may be, I'll wait for her to ask me of, like, hey, what's been going on recently? And I can. It really is on her. She learns at her own pace based on what she wants to do.

18:01 John Dehlin Yeah, I love that idea of you're more than a mixed faith marriage. Not letting that define your marriage. I love that.

18:07 Kattie Mount Right. Well, and then the last slide we have that we wanted to talk about is teaching children. And we've gone through this with, I mean, we just talked about this. But one of the things that couples say all the time is how do we introduce this to our marriage? How do we tell the kids that dad doesn't believe anymore or mom doesn't believe anymore and the other one still does. And this is a, this is a really, can be a really rocky place to navigate it, especially with your children. So Allan and I laid the groundwork and in the beginning we talked a lot about agency. So we would bring up super superficial examples. Like we talked first about horror movies. I hate horror movies. I don't like the way they make me feel. Can't stand them. Allan loves horror movies. He thinks that they're fun. So we said to the kids, you know this new movie, it coming out, you know, dad saw it and he liked it, but mom doesn't want to see it because she doesn't like stuff like that.

19:09 Allan Mount And we called it out. It's a rated R movie.

19:11 Kattie Mount Yeah, we called it out.

19:12 Allan Mount At the time, he was 10. He was like, isn't that rated R? And we went, it is, but I liked it. I thought it was great.

19:18 Kattie Mount And I said that I didn't like horror movies. I don't like the way it makes

19:21 Allan Mount you feel good when I, when I watch them.

19:23 Kattie Mount And then we said to the kids, who's right in the situation? Is dad right or I'm right? And it was our six year old at the time that said, well, neither of you are right. And I said, why? And she said, because it's your opinion. And we said, that's, that's what we want you to know.

19:39 Allan Mount Very public school system.

19:41 John Dehlin Good.

19:42 Kattie Mount So we've, we've taught the kids early on that everyone has their agency, everyone can choose for themselves. And if it doesn't hurt yourself or someone else, you get to decide. It's your Opinion. And. And that really laid the framework for us telling them that Allan no longer believed. And we thought it was going to be this big event. And when we told them, they said, all right, is there anything else?

20:08 Allan Mount I mean, can I go back to my room now?

20:09 Kattie Mount It was a non event.

20:10 Allan Mount It was, okay, cool, whatever.

20:11 John Dehlin Play Xbox down.

20:12 Allan Mount Yeah. Because it wasn't a big shock. And now every family dynamic is different. Our kids are 5 to 13, so older kids, that can be a little more difficult. We have to lean on people that went through that because we have not been through that with older kids. I have to tell this story. I have to. So we were at a family reunion of hers last summer, and we met one of her cousins who ended up after this little family reunion, sending her an email to our marriage on a tightrope email address saying, I found your podcast and I absolutely love it. My husband has never been a member of the church. He's Methodist, and we saw him at the reunion, but he was kind of to the side with a few of his kids. Big Polynesian guy, just tatted up, backwards hat.

20:58 John Dehlin Looks.

20:58 Allan Mount Looks like this tough guy that, like, I honestly, I didn't want to really converse with him. And. And shame on me for having that reaction. But then she talks to us and reveals all this stuff in this email, and we're like, we gotta have you over for dinner. So I invite them over for dinner, or we invite them over for dinner, and they come with their four kids. Four kids, was that. No, six kids.

21:19 Kattie Mount They have seven kids.

21:20 Allan Mount Seven kids, yeah.

21:21 John Dehlin It's been a while.

21:21 Allan Mount So they come over with their seven kids, and as soon as the door opens, it's this big Tongan man who could just destroy me if he wanted to. And that doesn't say much. I'm pretty.

21:32 John Dehlin You're not small.

21:33 Allan Mount Well, I'm not, but I'm a really big wuss. Ask anybody who knows me well. But he. He stands at the door and he goes, kids, these are your cousins. Let's get inside and get on the couch. Everybody on the couch. We're gonna take a picture. He's this big teddy bear. And the entire night he was teaching me about Sadhguru YouTube channel and all this wisdom. And I listened to this Buddhist podcast, and he has this. Not hair salon. Barbershop. He has this barbershop, and he goes. Takes his two oldest kids to downtown Salt Lake twice a month to cut the hair of the homeless people. And he's telling me all this stuff, and I was just. I just. I was blown away. It was, it was like man, these, these people, this man is one of the most kind, thoughtful people I've ever met. And the next day was family home evening.

22:22 Kattie Mount And it was while you were gone.

22:24 Allan Mount Oh did you the Martin Luther King Day.

22:26 Kattie Mount Martin Luther King Day.

22:26 Allan Mount Well that's, that's what spawned it. And that's what spawned it was the day before we taught this, this lesson of Martin Luther King of what makes you a good person versus what doesn't matter if, if you're, you're good or bad. Tattoos is on that list. What religion you are is on that list. What is good is how you treat people who you serve, what you give back. And it was all because of this wonderful man that I didn't want to get near at a family reunion just because of what he looked like. And I was really, really important lesson for me to learn.

23:00 John Dehlin That's a great story.

23:01 Kattie Mount Yeah. And as we talk through some of these things, you know, especially with what to do with the kids, we always discuss it as a couple first but we don't always agree. So if we come to a, we don't come to a conclusion, we come to a conclusion that we don't agree and then we'll go to the kids and we'll put up the united front. We'll sit together and we'll say okay, this is what we think. This is what mom thinks, this is what dad thinks. We actually disagree on this. Tell me what you think.

23:34 John Dehlin Yep.

23:35 Kattie Mount And, and then the kids will be able to voice their own opinion. And it has, I mean it has completely transformed how we, how we parent our children.

23:46 John Dehlin And that's the formula Natasha and I have been espousing in our retreats for a few years now. Mommy believes X Daddy believes. Why? What do you believe? It's such a healthy thing. And believers can share what they believe, non believers can share what they believe. But most importantly neither are. Because the kids don't want to feel like they're being pressured. Like they have to choose what a kid should feel is they're being, you know, it's again, it's Satan's plan, right in the pre existence should the believing parent want to force the kids to believe something that actually is against your religion to force belief. And again, non believers, you're a jerk if you're trying to make your kids. How are you any better than a church that you feel is controlling and oppressive if you're trying to force your non beliefs on your kids? Kids. And guess what? I have bad news for both of you kids. Are going to do whatever they want to do, period. Right? So take that off the table. It's really beautiful. Mommy believes X Daddy believes. Why? What do you believe? And then the kids are going to believe different things. And again, at the end of the day, what that models is a family where it doesn't matter what you believe, it doesn't matter. Your politics doesn't matter, your religion doesn't matter, your sexuality, you're embraced and loved and accepted here. It's a great formula.

25:01 Allan Mount And be prepared for life not to play that structured because sometimes you're alone with a kid and he asks you a question or she asks you a question and your spouse isn't there to provide their side of the story. You have to provide some of their story or recommend that they ask your parent. It was less than a month ago, I was with all four kids in the car and they asked me, dad, have you ever tried alcohol? Because one of the songs on the radio said the word liquor in it and I all of a sudden found myself in the car without Kattie to tell what she thought about alcohol. But I felt like I'm going to answer this question, I'm not going to just say, hold on a second. So I told him what I felt, actually asked them like, why do you think I didn't try alcohol until just a few months ago? And my 11 year old said, well, because you thought you no longer feel like it's against your religion. And I said that's right, I no longer do. That's why I have now tried it. But guess what, you can't try it. You're a child and you need to be older to be able to make that decision. Your mom doesn't agree with me. You really should ask your mother about this when we get home. It's those types of things that again you can't control. I can't control when they're going to ask certain questions. But be ready to represent your spouse and then recommend that they talk to them when it happens.

26:19 John Dehlin And by all means avoid this tendency where the believer's trying to sneak off and get the kids to believe and the non believers trying to have these secret conversations to undermine the belief and then the other spouse is finding out about it and the kids are again footballs in a war of contention between believer, non believer. You're going to wreck your kids and you're going to wreck your family.

26:39 Allan Mount Right?

26:40 John Dehlin Just bring it all out into the sunshine. Believers get to share what they believe, non believers get to share. People in the middle get to Share, but do it as a united front, just like you said, discuss it as a couple first. Don't go behind your partner's back. Don't undermine that trust even further. Do it all together as a united front and do it happily. Where you're not scared about letting kids figure out what they think, where you're basically excited about letting them become who they are and figure out what is true for them because they're going to do it anyway. You may as well do it joyfully as a family because they're going to believe what they want to believe anyway. You know they are.

27:21 Allan Mount Do you want to talk about that last one to explain appropriately to their level?

27:24 Kattie Mount Yeah, we've tried to let the kids talk, just let conversations happen organically. So we are not going to bring up heavy topics if they don't one, if they don't ask, but two, if it's not to their knowledge or not appropriate for their level. So you know, I'm going to talk to my 5 year old much differently than I'll talk to my 13 year old and they're going to have different questions. And so we just tailor make it to whatever kid we're talking to and if it's something that they bring up on their own and they ask us questions, well then we'll talk about it. But our 11 year old is the one that's really more thoughtful and so he'll come up with better questions and we'll talk about it very openly with him. But you know, in no sense have we tried to push or force anything, any information on for them. We just want to speak to where they're at in their own development because that can just be damaging for them.

28:17 John Dehlin I remember wanting to explain multiple versions of the first vision or you know, hieroglyphics and you know, Rosetta Stone and Kinderhook plates. And my kids were just like they were too young and they didn't care. That's stuff that we care about because we were raised in a Bruce R. McConkey World with truth claims are really important. A lot of kids just don't care about that stuff or they'll care someday but they don't care when they're six about who Fanny Alger is. So keep it age appropriate. That's so important. But what do you think Kattie, should a non believer be able to explain the fundamentals about church history prior to, let's say a kid deciding if they're going to go on a mission or not or get temple married at some point? Does the Non believing spouse have the right to make sure their kid knows the facts or the truth about Mormon history.

29:15 Kattie Mount What do you think?

29:15 John Dehlin Yes.

29:15 Kattie Mount Yes. You think so? I do.

29:17 John Dehlin I think, what if they stop believing? What if they lose their faith?

29:20 Kattie Mount So Allan and I have decided that as they get older and as they ask questions and as we talk about things, if they decide to take seminary, a lot of times when they come home from church, Allan will ask them right off the bat. What did you learn today? Well, I learned about Noah. Okay, well, what do you think about Noah? Nah, there's no way that happened. I mean, our, our, our 12 year

29:45 Allan Mount old, 12 at the time.

29:46 Kattie Mount He was 12 at the time, said to us, there is no way that story is true.

29:51 Allan Mount Where would he put the whales, John? That's what he said.

29:54 Kattie Mount I'm like, well, they're already in the water.

29:56 Allan Mount I don't think the whales need to be on the ark.

29:58 Kattie Mount And Allan, and Allan said to him, all right, well, let's say it's not true. Let's say that it's, it's just a nice story. What do we learn from the story? What is it that you get out of the story? And, and he said, well, that you can do hard things. And Allan says, yeah, if you believe in something and, and you can do a hard something, that's really hard. And so I think that, that also don't disobey God.

30:21 Allan Mount Well, see, if you would have gone there, if you would have gone there, I could have had.

30:25 John Dehlin Don't get on the wrong side of God.

30:27 Kattie Mount Right.

30:28 Allan Mount I could have addressed that. But he didn't come up with that. He came up with, if it's really hard, but you feel like you should do it, do it, as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And technically, Noah didn't hurt anybody.

30:38 Kattie Mount Well, some of the others did, but. So I think that that's the philosophy moving forward that we're going to have, is that if they want to come up with their own conclusions, they want to talk about it. We're going to talk about, well, why would we tell the story? What's important about the story? I think that that goes with everything to do with the church. So if our kids come home from seminary and say, I just don't believe this is what they're telling us. Allan has every right to say, well, I've done some research and this is what I found. It's, I think we've learned, everyone has learned that keeping things secret or not telling them about it does damage. And so he has every Right. To say things to them. I have every right to give my point of view to them. And we're going to let them decide where to move on because, you know, maybe it works for them and maybe it doesn't.

31:33 John Dehlin Okay, a couple final questions. So, Kattie. Yeah, I. I can see an orthodox believer, and I, you know, I know that there are some in the church that don't. That are even worried about your podcast. They're like, oh, but it's a slippery slope because they're normalizing and making it okay to be in a mixed faith marriage. They're glamorizing a mixed faith marriage, and that's a slippery slope to apostasy. Right. But also, I can just see their orthodox believers are out there. They're like, wow, Kattie's really flexible. Kattie's really reasonable. Kattie's really working in the gray instead of the black and white or in the multicolor spectrum. But, man, if I do that, it may be that my kids leave the church. It may be that I will leave the church. Like, believers may feel that way. There are probably some people saying, man, if I like Kattie's mojo. But I'm just worried that if I become too flexible, it's just gonna. Everything's gonna fall apart and everyone's gonna leave and my eternal family's gonna be destroyed. What can you say to a believer that's scared to take a more middle, flexible, compassionate, empathetic approach, a more reasonable approach? What would you say to an orthodox believer that's afraid that it's gonna lead to a slippery slope of everything unraveling if they're more flexible?

32:48 Kattie Mount Okay, I actually don't know if you remember this, but you remember, you came to, you came to our house last summer, and of course I remember that.

32:58 John Dehlin You made taco salad.

32:59 Kattie Mount You made taco salad. You had a phone call and you

33:03 John Dehlin came to saw Curveball around with Rob Reynolds. Dan Reynolds brother.

33:07 Kattie Mount Dan Reynolds brother. So you came in and we talked about doing the podcast, and we talked about actually a lot of things. But towards the end, I asked you a question. I said, what do you most commonly see happening in our case? Do you remember what you said? Yeah, you said, you said, well, generally what I see is that one spouse will eventually realize that their. Their spouse was, you know, they, they go down the same spouse. They're the same path as their spouse.

33:41 Allan Mount At the time, I was still attending. And so you kind of walked through the timeline of, yeah, eventually that stops working for you. You have to stop attending the wife or the spouse tries to hold on it's very, very difficult. And they end up stepping away as well. The most common. You can say it in your words. The most. The most common.

33:59 John Dehlin But I also hope that I was careful to say that that doesn't have to be the case.

34:04 Allan Mount You were, you were. You said you've seen every single possible outcome.

34:07 Kattie Mount Yes.

34:08 John Dehlin Right.

34:09 Allan Mount Yeah.

34:09 John Dehlin And that. Does that.

34:10 Allan Mount Does that happen? Most common.

34:11 Kattie Mount That was the most common.

34:13 John Dehlin Because it's hard to stay in the church, in this church as a believer, and it makes faith home because every Sunday is a reminder that your family's a failure, that your family's not in the plan. And over time. And it's hard to have your spouse not be there. And over time, that can wear a believer down. Yeah, but it doesn't have to. So keep going.

34:32 Kattie Mount It doesn't have to. And you gave a few other scenarios. You've seen people who. It just didn't work, and so they divorced. And anyway, so you gave a few examples. And the second you left, I had a meltdown. I cried and cried and cried. And I said to Ellen, I don't want that to be our story. I don't want to leave something that I love. I don't want down the road to see that, like, I'm gonna completely. We're gonna be divorced or, you know, all these other outcomes we had talked about. And it was really hard for me to listen to, like, to your, you know, your experience. That was hard for me. And at the time, it gave me a little more determination, like, okay, we're going to figure this out. We're going to make it work. But I know that, like, me a year ago, which is so many of the believing spouses would feel the same way. Right. Would feel like, I don't want my story to be that I'm just going to leave also, or that I'm. We're going to end up in divorce. So we got to find a way to work through these things. And so my advice to you would be to find. First of all, we talked about this, but your story is your story. You don't have to follow anyone else's. Allan and I, our experience is completely independent and different from so many people, you know, and so don't feel like you have to model your behavior or your marriage after something that we are doing. You do what works best for you. And that's what Allan and I have stayed true to, is what works best for us. And right now, this is where we're at. And it works well for us, but it doesn't work well for everyone. And that's okay. So find and decide, you know, after, after time, you'll see, you'll naturally feel where you're supposed to be, where your heart's at and wherever that is, let it just lead you down that path because that's where that's what was supposed to happen in your life and in your journey. It's everyone, everyone has their own journey. So I would say embrace the fact that you'll have a journey and that it'll look different from ours. So just because you listen or just because you, you relent, I think you embrace some of that gray, doesn't mean that it's gonna look the same as us.

37:10 John Dehlin And for you, what's been the benefit of walking on the tightrope versus, you know, ending the marriage and not jumping on the tightrope?

37:18 Kattie Mount Yeah, the paradigm shift.

37:20 John Dehlin What's been good about it? What's been.

37:21 Kattie Mount Yeah, I mean, yeah, the communication, the tools that we've talked about that we gain because we can, we're better equipped to deal with different ideas that are now brought into the marriage, how we raise the kids. All of that has helped me grow as a person and grow in our devotion and love for each other in our marriage. And I wouldn't change that.

37:46 John Dehlin Has it been good for a lot of people say, oh, the kids will be confused. How has it been for the kids to have to have these open discussions?

37:52 Kattie Mount Yeah, that's a good question. We did an episode with our 13 year old and asked him these questions and said, how do you feel that dad's out? Does it make you sad? Does it make you happy? And we talked through some of those things and you know, we were really worried about the kids being confused and so far it doesn't even seem to faze them. They have questions, they ask, we talk about it pretty openly and just move on.

38:20 John Dehlin I think it can make kids healthier, more sophisticated, more empathetic, more wise because they have to deal with all the different ideas and perspectives and they learn empathy and tolerance and compassion and unconditional love. And it really prepares them for the workplace that's going to have diversity of belief and non belief and all sorts of diversity. Where better to learn how to deal with a diverse world than living in a diverse home?

38:47 Kattie Mount Certainly.

38:47 Allan Mount We were at the dinner table probably two months ago. I was telling Kattie a story of an email from a customer that I received that she was at home. A neighbor knocked on her door and disinvited her 8 year old daughter to her daughter's birthday party because this mother had stepped away from the church and didn't want her daughter. Her daughter's bad influence at that birthday party seemed like the most ridiculous thing in the world. So I'm telling Kattie, an eight year old's being excluded because they're no longer going to church. And I didn't know that our seven year old was actually really paying attention, but our seven year old daughter said, that is so ridiculous. And I'm like, oh, okay, why is that said? That's like me not being able to play with Dakota, one of her best friends, because he doesn't go to church. He doesn't even pray, dad. He doesn't even pray, but I wouldn't be able to play with him. That's just silly. I'm like, we agree with you. And it's those types of situations that you find yourselves in that I'm like, I think our kid's gonna be just okay because they're learning that some things, they just don't matter. They don't have to matter.

39:53 John Dehlin So, Allan, I'm asking you a similar question that I asked Kattie. A lot of the non believers are like, and we should have added a tip, don't use charged language. So words like cult, words like fraud, words like pedophile, you may, they may or may not be accurate. You may or may not like those words. Using them in a mixed face scenario, not usually useful. Having said that, I'm about to use them, but in a respectful way. So there are some non believers that, in their mind, they're like, I don't want my kid raised in a cult. Or I don't want my kid to be taught things that are sexually shaming. I don't want my kid to, you know, be exposed to the brainwashing, which is another bad word you never use. But these are people's internal thoughts. I don't want. What if they go on a mission? I don't want them to go on a mission. What if they end up marrying the temple? Then I'm excluded. Like, they've got all these fears that their kids are going to be destroyed if they're continued to be allowed to have exposure to the church. How do you deal with those? Do you have those fears? And then how do you cope with them?

40:57 Allan Mount Not in the same, not as visceral as the examples that you just gave. There's my only, I think the baseline of my fears are that my kids won't. No, that fear's even gone. I'm struggling to come up with the fear, like I really want them to choose what's best for them. And when I look at my upbringing, I'm super grateful. This is something Bill real talks about like the LDS Church saved him when he was, he was a convert at about the age of 17. He was doing drugs. He was doing all this and he, it really helped him a lot. The church really helped me a lot. And I will not deny that a lot of people look at their mission as two years of the church had me lying for them and I was just a salesman for a corporation selling Jesus. And I look back at my mission and I absolutely loved it. I have zero regrets. I thought it was an awesome formative time.

41:47 John Dehlin You met Kattie.

41:48 Allan Mount I met Kattie. That helped. That helped quite a bit.

41:51 John Dehlin Yeah.

41:51 Allan Mount But I look at my upbringing, I'm like, I, I, Yes. Were there things that I, that I now look back on and say, ugh, oh my goodness. We talked about in our, our first interview. Yes, there are those moments, but I'm conscious to those now. I talk to my kids. We've already actually, you know, put a stop to one on one interviews with our family. And so that's not a concern. A lot of the things in the church that, honestly I don't want to assign a percentage to it because that opens everyone to argue with it. But I would say there is a lot more good, healthy things about being in the church than there are harmful things.

42:29 John Dehlin It's. And it's even better now that Nelson's making all these changes. He's making all these changes that's making the church actually a healthier place.

42:35 Allan Mount Right. We were celebrating when he said, we want this to be more home centered and let's study in the home. Because we're like, this is playing into what we want anyway. It was perfect because we want to be the ones delivering the message.

42:47 John Dehlin Yeah.

42:47 Allan Mount And so that's why. And Natasha talks about this too. And we had, at our presentation at Thrive, we had a mother just with a trans, a trans daughter talking about how, I will not let this, this my daughter go to church and hear all this hate speech and all this thing. And we looked at each other like, we should have Natasha answer this. And so we did. We had Natasha answer the question. She talks about that. She's just like, look, is, I don't want to put words in Natasha's mouth. That is a bad idea. But she talks about basically all the stuff that I just talked about. If you, you are not trying to protect your kid from everything they learn at school or everything that they learned online. Why are you so caught up in worrying about every little thing that they're going to learn at church? Because if you are, you're going to deprive them of all the good things they can learn if they decide not to go. I want to make sure that they are learning the good things they would have learned at church, at home, or that they are putting those things into practice when they go to school. It's. I don't know how else to explain it. It's just, I can't protect them from every single angle. I just have to make sure that we can teach them how we want them to value things.

44:00 Kattie Mount We give them the tools.

44:01 John Dehlin Yeah, I've heard Native Americans have sort of this allegory, you can't wrap the world in leather to protect your kids feet, but you can put leather on your kids feet moccasins. We're not trying to make the world safe for our kids, we're trying to make our kids safe for the world. And that involves having them be exposed to different ideas, different thoughts, different perspectives. And that's how, especially if they come home and discuss it and unconditional love is shown, that's how they learn to be sophisticated and wise and to figure out what they think and feel and how to sift through good and bad. And so whether it's public schools, religion, secular stuff, sports clubs, workplaces, what you want, your kids are exposed to lots of environments and your kids have an active minds figuring out what they think and feel, coming home to you, talking about it and having a family culture where things can be discussed, they can make up their own decisions and then they know their love no matter what. And that's what I hear you saying.

45:03 Allan Mount Yeah.

45:04 John Dehlin And if they become, if they become missionaries and temple married, what are your thoughts on that?

45:09 Allan Mount Hey, we can have a civil ceremony outside, right?

45:12 John Dehlin But are you. No. But are you disappointed if they choose Mormonism?

45:15 Allan Mount I don't think disappointed is the right word for it. Like Kattie mentioned before with our 13 year old, if he comes to me and says, dad, I don't want to serve a mission, my question, I'm not going to say like, oh, thank goodness, awesome, that's great. I was hoping you would say that. The question's going to be why, why do you feel that way? If he says it's going to be super hard and I'm, and I'm really worried about being away from home for two years, I'll. I'll say, hey, that's a different. I had the same Concerns. And guess what? I got over it. And let me tell you how. But if you can. And I'll absolutely encourage him to go, if he comes to me. But I will have the conversation about the research and things like that, that's important. But if he comes to me and says, dad, I've also done some of the research you have, I don't want to go on a mission. I don't believe it. I'm also going to be saying, well, you shouldn't be going on a mission if you don't believe it. So for me, it's all about what they value. Laziness is something that I hate, and I don't want them to exhibit it, even if it means that they will exhibit the same behaviors that I will. Meaning I'm going to stop going to church because I'm lazy. I don't think that's a good reason. I'm not going to go on a mission because I'm lazy. I don't think that's a good reason. If they believe it, I'll help them overcome some of that stuff because I was there, too.

46:31 John Dehlin I love it. And, Kattie, if your kids leave the church and spend their lives as non believers, how do you feel good about that? Or how do you piece that together with your theology in the afterlife?

46:45 Kattie Mount I mean, the same way I've done with Allan. Allan doesn't believe anymore. He doesn't know what's going to happen. I happen to think and believe that we will be together no matter what happens. A loving God isn't going to tear families apart in the afterlife. So I believe that we'll still be together.

47:03 John Dehlin And your kids. What about their souls?

47:05 Kattie Mount And their souls will be with us. I just. I. That's. I think, one part of Mormon theology that I. I can't bite into anymore. Is that sad heaven is the way, right? Sad heaven? No, I. A loving heavenly father wouldn't do that. So.

47:22 John Dehlin So you have faith, no matter what happens in this life, that we'll be together, that things are going to be okay?

47:26 Kattie Mount Absolutely. And I think I listened to a podcast. It's called. What was it called?

47:31 Allan Mount Which one?

47:32 Kattie Mount It's like if. Oh, I can't even remember. Anyway. Okay, well, it doesn't matter. But all I'm saying is that I still think that whether you believe or not, in whatever religion, you're going to be with your loved one.

47:48 John Dehlin I love it. Well, you guys are awesome, and I appreciate you letting me keep you a little longer than you planned.

47:53 Kattie Mount Thank you.

47:54 John Dehlin How do people listen to your Podcast

47:56 Kattie Mount so they can listen to us on Marriage on a Tightrope in the podcast dot org.

48:02 Allan Mount Yeah. Marriage on a tightrope dot org is the website. Any. Any podcast app will. Will get you there.

48:07 Kattie Mount Podcast app will get there. And then we're on Instagram at Marriage on a Tightrope. I run that. Allan runs the Facebook side.

48:12 Allan Mount Yep. Marriage on a Tightrope podcast group.

48:15 Kattie Mount And then you can email at us@marijanatite rope gmail.com.

48:19 John Dehlin and how do they support you?

48:21 Allan Mount High fives. As they see us in the street.

48:23 John Dehlin I mean, with the money.

48:25 Allan Mount Yeah. Marriageanatightrope.org, there's a donate button about halfway down the page. You can click there. It can be recurring. It be one time. Anything helps. And we literally are putting that all back into our effort when we get back from our break to create some local groups of mixed faith marriage couples. Because it's good not to feel alone locally.

48:45 John Dehlin I love it. All right, well, Kattie and Allan, I really appreciate you spending seven hours with us on Mormon stories.

48:54 Kattie Mount Wait, is that the record? Who's the record?

48:56 John Dehlin Ten and a half is the record.

48:58 Kattie Mount Dang.

48:58 Allan Mount Who was that?

48:59 John Dehlin Roger. Roger Hendricks.

49:03 Kattie Mount Was that in one sitting?

49:04 John Dehlin No, it was in two. Over two days. Oh, two.

49:06 Kattie Mount Okay.

49:06 Allan Mount But we're up there with Dan Vogel

49:09 John Dehlin if you want to stay a little longer. No, no. You guys are awesome. Thank you for coming. Thank you for your work. Thank you for being a beacon of hope. Thank you for supporting people, for following your passion, for your sacrifices, for your effectiveness, and for being willing to share in this little community of ours that has so much pain, but there's so much promise. You guys are a light of hope and a kind of like a lifeline that exists for couples that need help. And you're doing it, and we love you and we're grateful for you and we hope you'll let us know if we can ever help with anything. You're doing awesome. What's in the future for Marriage on the Tightrope other than communities? Anything else? You're going to keep doing it?

49:55 Allan Mount I mean, honestly, we've. One last thing I would say is we have talked about having couples come on for more than just an interview. We actually are very open. Other hosts. Yeah, other hosts. We're very open to other hosts.

50:06 John Dehlin Because you're getting tired or.

50:08 Allan Mount No, it's. I mean, I think that a lot.

50:11 Kattie Mount I won't say anything.

50:12 Allan Mount No, I. I think that a lot of the. The value that is added is telling the story as it happens.

50:17 John Dehlin Yeah.

50:18 Allan Mount And as we kind of fit into a place where we are comfortable and there's not as much change happening on a week to week basis that it would be very helpful for our listeners to have another couple's journey to listen to and another perspective. So if there are other. I'll just look directly at the camera. If there are other couples that would like to tell their story on a more long term basis, let's talk, message us and we'll talk about it.

50:44 John Dehlin And I guess there are people who lose their faith in the church or leave it, who come back and get rebaptized and there are people who believe who leave. I know mixed faith couples that have swapped where at one point the husband didn't believe and the wife did, and then later the husband comes back to church and then the wife stops believing. Like both return to church, both leave. So any of those, I guess with you guys, any of those things are possible, right?

51:11 Allan Mount Yeah, everything's possible. We don't, again, the destination is not written and we're both open to either of those possibilities.

51:17 John Dehlin So, Allan, if you come back to church, or Kattie, if you stop believing, does that mean you'll have to stop being hosts?

51:23 Allan Mount No. And honestly, I don't want to paint a picture, no.

51:26 John Dehlin Doesn't this podcast need to be led by a mixed faith couple for it to be effective?

51:30 Allan Mount I think everyone's in a mixed faith, John. I think everybody is. And, and honestly, we don't have any plans to stop the podcast. We our own personal recordings of it. We don't want to belabor any. We don't need to go back to talk about the same issues over and over and over and over again. So we won't be repetitive on things. But again, I'll just circle back to, to that other, other voices are very valuable. So we love interviewing other people, we love meeting other people. We would love another, another couple to tell those story. Doesn't mean that when they start their story, we stop ours, but I think there's great value in it.

52:07 John Dehlin And Kattie, do you ever feel that pressure that you got to keep believing, you got to stay because you're filling that role in the podcast?

52:13 Kattie Mount Oh, that's a good question. At first I did, but now I've kind of settled into our new reality and so I don't feel, I don't feel pressured to do anything. That's a really nice place to be.

52:25 John Dehlin So you're just taking it day by day?

52:27 Kattie Mount Yeah, right.

52:28 John Dehlin All right, this is Kattie and Allan Mount, everybody. The podcast is Marriage on a tightrope. Marriageontatite.org please support them. Thanks to Bill Real for finding this lovely couple and sharing them with us and Mormon Discussions podcast and all the great people over there and you guys, please stay tuned. Support them. If you value if you're a mixed faith couple and you want us to interview you, if you're a successful mixed faith marriage couple, we want to interview you. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you've reached out to me to be interviewed in this series, reach out to me again because I need to collect those names and make sure we line up those interviews. So look forward to several couples being interviewed on Mormon Stories and we'll mention you guys every time because we want to promote that good work. So please do reach out and we'll be doing more retreats and workshops for mixed faith couples and for couples and individuals. Check out mormonfaithcrisis.com for more information on those events. You can go to slash Events, but look for upcoming workshops and retreats. We're thinking about Chicago, thinking about Southern California. We're thinking about St. George. We're thinking about Southern Alberta. And if you want us to come to your area, please let us know. We would love to bring a workshop or retreat to where you are to help you in whatever you're doing. Hopefully we'll do some more mixed faith marriage retreats in the coming. Maybe we'll do something together. Yeah, that'd be super fun with Natasha

53:54 Kattie Mount and oh yeah, that'd be great.

53:55 John Dehlin Or Julia de Azevedo Hanks. Or all of us. Or Margi. We'll be thinking about that. Please support Mormon Stories. If you value this content, go to mormonstories.org top right. You can click on the donate button. 1050, 100 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. It's all tax deductible. We're transparent in our finances and all the money goes to keeping the podcast alive and towards providing communities of support and resources for people like you. Thanks for your support and love you guys and we'll see you guys soon on another episode of Mom's Stories Podcast. Thanks to Cody Layton for the production and thanks to all our listeners who shared their comments and perspective. We really appreciate you guys and please spread the word. Take care everybody.