Creating a Family Culture

0:19 John Dehlin The topic is one that I'm really excited about. It's something we've talked about doing for a while and, and it's mostly my brilliant wife's brainchild. It's about creating a family culture, let's just say, during and after a religious transition. You know, so many parents worry that if they no longer remain orthodox or even religious, that somehow they'll not be able to raise healthy, happy kids or have a healthy, happy family. And, and to some extent, I think many high demand religions really encourage that fear by telling people, you can't raise happy, healthy kids outside the church. And, you know, no one's perfect, but we feel like we know many, many families who are raising amazing kids. And our kids aren't perfect by any stretch, neither are we. But we feel like we've created for us a special and a meaningful family culture. And so today we're going to talk about that. And Margie's going to be the primary lead in today's discussion. Okay, so Margie, I gave a little bit of an introduction on this topic, but I'd love you to introduce it in your way. Why do you think, why did you pick this topic for our audience specifically? What's the context sort of in a religious or Mormon transition? You know, either to liberal Mormonism, because we started all this way before we left the church.

1:49 Margi Dehlin I was going to say, the truth is we have always sort of. I feel like we've always felt for this and kind of done this. So I feel like it is super important and it also.

2:04 John Dehlin Why do people need it?

2:08 Margi Dehlin Well, here's the thing. You have it. You have it right now. So my view is why not be mindful and aware of the culture that you're cultivating in your home. And so that's more of where it stemmed for me. I remember in Seattle feeling like, oh, maybe I feel a little differently here than things I'm hearing on Sunday. So here's a way for me to actually cultivate and empower messages in our home or even emphasize messages from church too, that I just felt. So it's a great way to focus and it's so empowering. It's just one of those things. I'm all about things that are very practical, but I'm also about things that make you feel empowered and fulfilled. And so this is true of what we're discussing here.

3:00 John Dehlin And just to echo some of the comments I shared at the very beginning, you know, the church does a great job of filling your life up with culture. From family, home, evening to Family prayer, to church attendance, you know, to church activities, to church music, to, you know, church talks. Like you could literally, you know, Mormon, Mormon it up for 24 hours a day, seven days a week. But when you sort of unplug, you sort of take the red pill and unplug from that orthodox matrix. It can be really scary and disorienting. And I do think the church, like most high demand religions, prime you to be scared that you can't have a healthy family, a happy family, without orthodoxy and you can't have a healthy marriage and you can't raise healthy kids without the church's orthodox culture. And so what we want to just talk about is how to be mindful about that. And you're right, everyone's already doing it. And honestly, I think a lot of our listeners probably have rituals and values and traditions that we could all learn from. So before we even jump in, we're going to be talking about values and rituals and traditions that you can implement as a progressive or post Mormon. And we want to start now by asking our listeners if they want to type in the comments some of their values or rituals or traditions. We'll share them as we go in the program.

4:33 Margi Dehlin And can I give just a quick disclaimer before we begin? So naturally we're going to be sharing things from our home right today. And so I just wanted to be careful about it is there are a couple reasons why I chose to do that. Clearly it's what we know and that's why it's a pretty natural thing. But also it makes it more interesting. I am practical, so I don't love like discussing things at a high level without kind of bringing it down. And so that's another reason that I decided to go ahead and do that today. It is not because our family is perfect or because we think we're all that today and we'd just like to share it with you. That is not the reason why. It's more just for interest and also to kind of bring it down in a practical way, hopefully in a way that's helpful.

5:28 John Dehlin Not only does perfection not exist, but striving for perfection is one of the main enemies of joy and happiness and well being. So we are not gurus, we are

5:39 Margi Dehlin not role models, but we're all on the journey together.

5:43 John Dehlin Margie has been a master nurturer of a family culture that has really worked for us. So I think she's worth listening to.

5:53 Margi Dehlin Thanks. I really hope you feel the same way.

5:57 John Dehlin All right, let's dive in. Take it away Margie.

6:00 Margi Dehlin So the first thing I wanted to do was just sort of think about a visual and thinking about family culture as a tower. So we'll be laying out sort of these tiers, these levels of family culture, with the idea that as you build. Sorry, that as you build, there is more power with all these things together than if you did, if you just focused on one, for example. So we will start with that sort of idea that the cumulative effect would be. Is greater than sort of this sort of singular idea. So it begins. The foundation is values, of course. So the values are the foundational layer.

6:50 John Dehlin Okay. And we've talked about values before, but I want to make sure we define values. And it's even more tricky because we're defining family values. And I just will never forget growing up in Texas in the 80s. There was the Ralph Reed crowd with kind of the Christian Coalition, who took that term family values, and in my opinion, really bastardized it or damaged it. If you were to ask me growing up, you know, what do family values mean? I would have said, well, it means don't drink alcohol. It means don't take drugs. It means don't have premarital sex, don't get an abortion, you know, watch. Don't watch our movies, and don't cheat on your spouse. And that's. Those are family values. In other words, sort of orthodox, conservative, Christian don'ts are what we associate with family values. And I'm just gonna take another moment to do what I've done before and define what. What the word values means. The word value literally means, what do you value? And so in the context of family values, it literally means, what does your family value? Now, your family can value health, good health, and in that sense, maybe for your family, you know, moderate or no alcohol or drug use. That might be sort of a tactical decision you make in the spirit of living, your value of health. And of course, other people may drink alcohol responsively and also share the value of health. But the point is that the value is something like good health. It could be something like honesty. It could be something like kindness. It could be something like truth or education or learning. And our point, I think, at the beginning is that values do two really important things. They provide you with direction. If you want to go somewhere as a family, but you don't have a map. You don't know where to go. If you don't have your little Google Maps GPS device, you're going to just kind of wander around potentially, or you risk wandering around. So values provide you a direction you list out your family values, you know what direction your family's going. The second thing that values can do is motivate you. Because if you're ever down, if you're ever feeling lost or discouraged, you simply as a family or as a couple, you pull out your list of values and you say, well, what do we stand for? How are we doing on these things that we value? What are some activities that we can do and start pursuing that will move us in a direction and that will get us going and get us unstuck? And so that's just an introduction to the idea of values. Another just final point to make is that values can grow and change. And so you may have a set of values in year one of your relationship or marriage or family, or in year 10, but over time, those values can be refined. And so there's nothing wrong with every month or every six months or every year doing a re inventory of your values and taking away ones that you don't feel are necessary to note. Maybe adding some others that mean a lot to you. Having your values grow and change is a good thing.

10:16 Margi Dehlin Yeah, I think that's important to note. Just also because let's say you have young children, maybe your values at that point will reflect that. And we're going to kind of take you through a few examples of what our values were at different times in our life. So I thought I would start in Seattle. In Seattle, our children were younger. Our oldest children were probably preschool to kind of middle grade school, I would say. So younger, I would say like three to, well, newborn to probably seven or eight. And our values, I remember then John and I coming together and making out a list of values. And the values from that time were truth, beauty, beauty, meaning, like music, art, literature, plays, culture. So truth, beauty, love, excellence and joy.

11:22 John Dehlin Truth, beauty, love, excellence and joy.

11:26 Margi Dehlin And I remember I put those up on a bulletin board.

11:30 John Dehlin Were those part of our wedding vow?

11:32 Margi Dehlin Our. They may have been. Yeah, they may have been. And so for that, that was kind of like a couple thing. I felt like it brought us closer together, gave us an identity at that time with the children. I would add, if you came into our home in Seattle, what you would see was nature. Like I took the kids out for walks probably every day. And creativity. There's a lot of just painting, drawing, creative play, play. D'oh. And so those were. Would be the two things, I think, for the children that you would see a lot of as well. So that is the Seattle sort of young years. And then,

12:13 John Dehlin yeah, as the kids started Going to school. I. We always, you know, we always made them breakfast and sometimes we drive them to school or take him to the bus stop or whatever. And I felt like I wanted to develop little thing to say to them every time I said goodbye. I think that probably comes from my Mormon background, you know, the whole return with honor or don't forget who you are. But I wanted it to be something that wasn't sort of guilt inducing and simplistic and honestly oversaturated with Mormonism probably. So I developed five words that I wanted to tell the kids every day before, before I dropped them off. And so if I was driving them a car, if I was walking with them, I would say, hey, have a good day and remember the five things. And I would say, these are the five things. I'd say, be kind, learn, work hard, have fun. And then I would say, be obedient. And what I meant by obedient is if you're going to school, don't break the rules of school because you can get in trouble over time. Our kids told us they hated that value of be obedient. And I'm sure there's many post Mormons or, you know, liberal Mormons or questioning Mormons that agree that that's an awful value. So, you know, it worked for that. You can receive feedback and change as a parent over time. In my time in psychology, I learned that flexibility was actually a key to positive mental health. And so I added that as a sixth value. But once the kids. Being flexible.

13:58 Margi Dehlin Being flexible.

13:59 John Dehlin Yeah, being psychologically flexible. Open to what life brings, instead of trying to control what life brings, because that's, that's attachment, according to Buddhists, is suffering. So. So it got to the point where I would say that so much that I would stop saying it and I would say, what are the five things? As I would drop them off for school. And so they would go, be kind, learn, have fun, work hard, and be obedient. And then be flexible. And it wasn't me telling them, but it was them telling me. And some may call that brainwashing, but I think it's.

14:35 Margi Dehlin It was kind of focusing, actually, and playful.

14:37 John Dehlin Yeah. And one of the most, you know, meaningful gifts that I received as a dad was. Was this. So one of my daughter's. I think it was a Father's Day or a birthday of mine. My daughter Maya put together a storybook called Remember the Five Things. And she illustrated it, and in it she told these little stories, you know, about each of the, you know, each of the five things.

15:06 Margi Dehlin And there's coming to play in her life.

15:08 John Dehlin So there's be kind someone being kind with someone who has a disability. Here's, you know, work hard, and there's someone studying and working hard.

15:21 Margi Dehlin And it was kind of like she was faced with a predicament and then remembered the value and then kind of guided her. You should show them the little last page when she graduates.

15:30 John Dehlin Yeah. And the last page she draws herself graduating. I don't know how to make this look good. She draws herself graduating. What does that mean to you, the graduation picture?

15:41 Margi Dehlin Well, I just love that in the end, she says she named the girl in the story Claire, but she said that for the rest of her life, Claire was a better person because of those five things. They helped her make a lot of important choices, all thanks to one person, Claire's dad. She made a difference in the world one step at a time, and her dad was proud. But what I loved about this was just. It's the idea that they have power. I mean, the things that you choose to focus on actually can make a difference. So. And I was going to say, I would probably say that was the focus from when our children were probably around the ages of 3 to 12. So preteen. I feel like that was a great kind of centering, I don't know, ritual before the kids left for school. Now I did something little bit different to kind of capture what our current culture would be. I texted my children.

16:43 John Dehlin Because values change over time, right?

16:44 Margi Dehlin That's right. And I think we've made, amidst our transition and the excommunication, it has been less overt in our family life. So I was curious what our children would feel, what they feel. Our values are sort of in the past six years now. Our children now are 21, 19, 16, and 13. So I texted Anna, who's at college, still spends some time at home during breaks and things. I asked Anna what five values she feels in our home, what we emphasize or support and live on a daily basis. And they did not know what each other were writing. So that's interesting too, to see if anything. And this is kind of a great activity. Can I say, if you want a starting point, just to see, hey, what do our children feel like our family values are? You can do this. You can pull them aside, give them a sheet of paper and say, you know, if you. What do you feel from our family that our top five values would be? And it can be this really interesting sort of, I feel like information gathering session for yourself. Anyway, Anna said education, tradition, communication, Vulnerability and connection. So that's what our oldest daughter said. Maya gave me two Maya. So our 19 year old said honesty and vulnerability. And then the two youngest that are actually living at home now. So Claire is 16, said honesty, education, kindness, health and nature and communication. And then our youngest, Winston, said honesty, kindness, learning, have fun and health. So what's interesting to me about that is the overlap. It does feel like some things overlapped. And anyway, it was just a great way to sort of get in touch with are we living what we value?

18:52 John Dehlin And it's one thing to kind of tell your kids the values, it's another thing to have them reflect back what values they're just inherently experiencing in the home. So try that as parents. Try asking your kids, even if they're grown up, you know, what values do you see in our family lived out, or what values you remember being most emphasized growing up? And it can give you real sense of satisfaction or clarification or clarity to go through that experience.

19:24 Margi Dehlin Yeah, yeah,

19:27 John Dehlin yeah. So, yeah. So let's see. There are lots of values that you could have. You know, we've also considered other values in our family, like contribution. Obviously our work with the Open Stories foundation is sort of based on our value that not only do we just have a great life or try to live a great life, but also try and give back. So that's a value.

19:53 Margi Dehlin And our children have that in their lives too. I feel like.

19:55 John Dehlin Yeah, for sure. We focus on responsible media use. I think if you guys saw our home, you would feel like we're very, I don't want to say controlling, but yeah, we're very conscious of screen time, of mobile device time, of TV time, of computer time, because we just think that, you know, we should all live a balanced life and we all struggle with that at times, but that is definitely a value. But the most, I think the most important value that I see that came through here. We just really believe in emotional connection and emotional health. And so, you know, we talk a lot about vulnerability in our family and intimacy and emotional intimacy and connection. And this comes from our study of Shefali Saberry and her work in a book called the Conscious Parent. But in the religious paradigm, the structure is control and coercion and consequences. And we've realized that if you do with your kids, from that standpoint, basically what can happen is you just teach them to lie, to resent you, to hide from you, and to do whatever they want just in secret. That if you really want, you know, to have a constructive influence with your kids, it starts with emotional connection and intimacy where you talk to them and you love them and you make them feel good and you make them feel comfortable with you and you're vulnerable with them and you're open to their feedback and you explain the principles that behind the rules and you get their input and you get their buy in on, you know, rules and consequences and boundaries, et cetera. And it's difficult, it takes more time, but it's something we've really valued.

21:51 Margi Dehlin Yeah. I was thinking another value I might add to the kids list would be growth, which I think is super important. Coming from where we've come from, where perfection really was. I feel like something that was the end goal, that it was expected that because the idea is you will make mistakes. So let's talk about what you learned from it. Let's talk about what you do with what you experienced in a way that actually gives to you in your life. So growth would be another one really quickly.

22:24 John Dehlin Mike writes, one of our family values is discipline through love and uplifting words. Instead of no or stop, we just say no, thank you. Mike writes, words matter so much. The saying sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me is incorrect. Mike writes, words define us and shape our minds. So fill your kids minds with the right words.

22:50 Margi Dehlin I really love that, Mike. And you know, words oftentimes stick and stay. You know, oftentimes you can talk to adults that still can replay words from their childhood or things they were told. So. Such a good point.

23:06 John Dehlin Yeah. And if you want to share, if any of you have values that you want to share on the Facebook Live comment feed, or if you want to share it on the blog@mormonstories.org Once we post this or on YouTube, please go ahead and just share some of your values. That's a really good, positive thing.

23:22 Margi Dehlin Yeah. So to break it down a bit, I thought, you know, how do you get started, how do you get started in a values discussion with your spouse, with your children, with your family? So if your children are old enough, one thing you can do is brainstorm. Get together and brainstorm. If they're really small or if you think it's, it would be helpful, you can actually print out a list of, you know, 15 or so, maybe 20, 25 values and let them circle maybe their top five or list their top five. And then you have, you bring them all together and you put them in a master list. And then you kind of discuss as a family which ones feel the most important out of the cumulative. Everyone's Basic five that they kind of turn in, you choose from there, you vote, and then consider with what you vote those final five, or however many you choose values, find a way to display it somewhere so it can focus you and it can remind you all kind of around those values each day. You'll have a visual there.

24:39 John Dehlin And if you don't like New Year's resolutions because you find you. You violate them within three days of making them. What we did for many years was family values, where we would sit down and do a values inventory, and each child write down their own personal values that they wanted to live by. And so instead of like, saying, I want to lose 10 pounds, or I want to win some race or get straight A's or whatever it is, they're just every day looking at what are my values. It's learning, it's fitness, it's healthy, it's exercise, it's communication. That can be a really fun family exercise.

25:17 Margi Dehlin Really fun. And then they would write them on cards and decorate them, and I loved it because they were connecting with themselves in that activity. It came from them.

25:27 John Dehlin Lolly writes, empathy is a big one that I try to teach my little girl. Thanks, Lolly, for sharing another one of your values. If anybody else has a value they want to share, please do it. We'd love to hear. All right, what's next?

25:43 Margi Dehlin Second block.

25:44 John Dehlin All right, the second block is Embodiment, and this is one that Margie listed, but I'm. Yeah, and why don't you tell us what you mean by embodiment?

25:54 Margi Dehlin Yeah, what does embodiment mean? I think the idea is the living of the values, how people experience them in your presence, if they see them lived. And it sounds so simple, you know, but it's actually just practice what you preach.

26:11 John Dehlin Is that what you're saying?

26:12 Margi Dehlin Yeah, right. It's really. Actually living what you say. And I think your children really notice. They are looking to you to see, you know, how is Mom? How are mom and dad experiencing the values? Are they aware on a new level? And they're looking for integrity there? And so Embodiment, I think it's a great place to kind of start.

26:39 John Dehlin My dad sometimes in moments of desperation would say to us, do as I say, not as I do. And I, you know, he was kidding. And that was a, you know, an interesting and a fun thing that he would say to us. But, yeah, the truth is, it's one thing to have values, it's another thing to live them, and it's another thing to live them in the heat. Of the moment when your kids can be grouchy or disrespectful or just passions can be flaring, it's really important to model this stuff because maybe one of the worst things you could do is really emphasize values as parents and then not live up to them. And what's hard about that is you don't want to get defeated and beaten down because you're not perfect. Because we're not going to be perfect at living our values. Values are a direction. They're not a destination. And so with that, we're going to make mistakes. And then it's easy for a kid to just go, oh, my gosh. You say our value is this or that, and then you don't live it. And then all of a sudden you feel beat down and discouraged. And so living it is actually quite challenging.

27:48 Margi Dehlin And as a parent, if you're having a discussion, a connection discussion with your teen, let's say, say over media use, right? But I'm on my phone all the time, or they're trying to talk to me and I'm texting or I'm distracted. It matters. They see that discrepancy and it makes your conversation less potent, less. And we, our children, actually will at different times, give feedback around that or say, and we need to be open to it and say, you know what? I actually am a little bit. And it is addictive. I feel ya. So, you know, we're all on the same. We're, like, working toward it. But your strongest place is one where you're working to embody the values and then also showing compassion for yourself and your children when it gets a little rough.

28:42 John Dehlin So one example of this is when. So we have a value of vulnerability and healthy communication and intimacy. But what happens when maybe one of the kids has done something we're upset about or don't like? Or what if a kid's just rude or disrespectful? Again, how do you handle it? Well, if I sort of act instinctively, maybe I lose my temper, maybe I yell, or maybe I just say do what I say or obey me or, you know, apply some punishment or you avoid it. Yeah. And none of that, none of that is aligned with the values that we've been talking about. And so one of the challenges with values is sometimes they can make things more complicated or require more time. And in the case of how we deal with disagreements, if a kid's upset or two kids are upset with each other, if we're going to live our values of healthy communication, of intimacy, of connection. Well, that means we have to actually take the time to sit down with the kids. And believe me, if you've ever been in the Delhin home for more than three days, you will have witnessed somebody get upset. And us calling a little meeting, whether it's on the floor of our bedroom or the living room, and we're either moderating between two of the kids or between the parents and the kid, or between one parent and one kid, or another parent is a moderator.

30:12 Margi Dehlin And this would be when they can't clearly reconcile it on their own. That's clearly the first choice. But sometimes, especially in its teen years.

30:22 John Dehlin Yeah, sometimes I or you will get engaged with the teen and we start losing our grounding a little bit. And so sometimes the parent who's in a bit of a more stable place, and sometimes even one of the children who's in a bit more of a stable place will take the leadership role in helping to moderate or mediate a discussion where people can share how they feel, share why they're upset on both sides, talk about what our values are, talk about the behavior or the situation, and then, you know, apologize, if necessary, validate, validate each other, make sure both sides understand why the others were upset, and then hopefully come up with some sort of resolution. And it takes more time. It really does. And a lot of our time is spent talking through hurt feelings or boundaries or whatever.

31:23 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Or even processing tragic things that have happened to our kids or things that experiences that have left them feeling unsure. That takes a lot of time and energy to have those sort of one on one. Or maybe we take the child out for a walk and really try to help them work through and process some of those more challenging and complicated feelings in that way.

31:55 John Dehlin Yeah. And the other thing is, it's difficult and it's painful, but one of the things we've noticed is that one of the keys to human relationships is emotion regulation. And parents don't talk to their kids about emotion regulation a lot of the time. But more importantly, parents can lose control of their behavior because of their emotions. And so for us, modeling emotion regulation is essential. If I'm upset, if I've been hurt, if I've been offended, if I can pull it together and show them that even though I'm upset, I can choose my behavior while having feelings of being upset. It's the only way to help model and teach emotion regulation to our kids. And we're finding that if a kid goes out in the world without emotion regulation skills, they're going to have a Lot of trouble and a lot of self medicating, a lot of reckless behavior, unhealthy behavior comes from an inability to regulate emotions. But that begins with us.

33:03 Margi Dehlin It does. And emotional regulation can also look like, I really love you. And I can tell right now that we're really, you know, this is hurting both of us. So I'm going to go ahead, I think we should call it right now for five or ten minutes, know I

33:18 John Dehlin love you, or an hour or a

33:19 Margi Dehlin day, and we'll come back to it. That can be emotional regulation as well. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to, you know, have this external control when you're feeling really overloaded. So that would be another part of modeling emotional health in our family, as well as the discussions that we have with connection versus control. Yeah, that takes extra time too, versus just saying you were late for curfew.

33:50 John Dehlin Here's your punishment. You're grounded.

33:52 Margi Dehlin Right. Which is a complete disconnect. Usually your child just disconnects and is upset. It's more time, it's more energy to sit with the child and say, let's talk about curfew, shall we? Let's talk about why, where we're coming from. I'd love to hear what's happening with you when you're late, when you should be coming home, why you don't, what's stopping you from being on time.

34:14 John Dehlin And we tell them that our motives are their safety, their health and their well being, you know, and sometimes they'll say, well, but sometimes I want to stay after curfew. And we're in a healthy, safe place. And we've even moderated our curfew policy to allow for an extension based on them being in a really healthy, safe situation.

34:35 Margi Dehlin Mm.

34:36 John Dehlin So being close really quickly. David writes, being present in every moment is a value of his. It's so easy to get detached from what's currently right in front of us. Thank you, David, for sharing. Please keep those comments coming from those joining us through Facebook.

34:52 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Another value of ours is connection. And I was thinking it might be valuable to take you through the process of, let's say you do the value session with your family, with your spouse, and you have your list. Right. Where do you go from there? One thing I thought is just taking you through the basic process and the first step would be assessment. Right. So let's say we're looking at connection, which is one of our values as well. You would just honestly look at your family and say, you know, how are we connecting? And am I happy with the level of connection that we have and really just sort of assess. And then in those areas, maybe that you're less happy with the weaker areas. That's when you get to be creative and say, are there obstacles in that area that are affecting our ability to connect? And some obstacles could be in the area of connection that you're distracted, right? Maybe you're on your phone a lot when the kids are coming home, or you have a lot of things going on so you're distracted from it could also be that maybe your schedule is a little challenging and it's really, really busy and that's making it so the pace of life is such that it's so fast it's making it difficult to connect. Maybe it's. Could it be your reactivity, your kids actually are afraid of you or don't feel safe opening up? And so there's this avoidance thing going on in the home. These are all questions to kind of ask. And it's a good place to kind of sort of remedy. Like, how do. How would I go about having. Embodying this value that I feel like that we have chosen? How could I do that? And what would it look like on a daily basis? For example, one thing, John, do you want to talk about that? You do at Princeton?

36:51 John Dehlin So I was, you know, Margie's got this advantage over me, I think, in her role as, you know, kind of a stay at home mom in the sense that the kids come home from school around three or four, she can give them a little snack or whatever. And then sometimes just in the natural sort of space of that coming home period, you know, the kids will tell her about their day. But then, you know, I'm done with work at 6 o' clock and I come into dinner or whatever, or I see the kids and I'm like, tell me about your day. For some reason, sometimes when they're explicitly asked, how was your day? Like, my son Winston just told me, I hate, I hate it when you ask me how my day is. I'm like, what the crap? I would have thought you'd like it that I take an interest in you and care about what's going on.

37:41 Margi Dehlin He's often like, talk to mom. Yeah.

37:43 John Dehlin He's like, I already told Mom. Ask her. And I'm like, well, I kind of want to connect with you, but so, you know, Winston's been learning ultimate Frisbee and he really likes ultimate Frisbee and so he likes to play Frisbee. So instead of like trying to corner him at dinner, or, you know, ask him in a way that he hated. I just would say, hey, bud, let's go throw the Frisbee. And you know, whenever we can, we go out to the field kind of by our house and we play Frisbee golf or we throw the Frisbee and lo and behold, just through the natural course of kind of being together, doing something else, Winston sometimes will open up and talk about stuff. And that's really kind of special. So it's a way. And I think you're kind of talking about assessment. Don't be scared if the method that you're using to pursue your value isn't quite working. Be open to other ways to pursue the value by doing an assessment. This isn't working. Let me try something else. Because it isn't that Winston didn't want to connect. It's that for him, connection happens when he's feeling a certain way. And it's not when he's cornered by his super tall dad trying to force him to give an immediate response about his day.

39:04 Margi Dehlin And I actually remember reading in a Psychology Today article, even with partners or spouses, that when you go out to eat, to not always sit across from one another, that people actually just psychologically have a difficult time sometimes with that direct pressure of communication. And I found that a lot of people will talk about how their teens open up in the car because they're side by side. They're not necessarily. So. Yeah, I think you're totally right. That method totally matters. And to kind of rethink things if you're. If you feel like there's an obstacle kind of in the way or something's not working.

39:44 John Dehlin Excellent. So I guess we had is one more point to talk about a recent situation we had with Winston where we just actually, our daughter was home from college and she's like, you guys are always reminding your younger kids what to do. You're always telling them, wake up, get dressed, brush your teeth. Yeah. And it's been true with maybe all of our kids at one point or another where, you know, Margie, I support. And Margie really loves rituals. She loves bedtime ritual, morning ritual. She loves to make sure all the important things get done before and after school. And yeah, it put us to the point where our daughter sort of alerted to us that we were just reminding our kids all day long they weren't learning maturity in terms of self motivation, self governing, etc. So we decided in this case not to pick on Winston, but we decided to sit down with him and to talk to him about our values and how one of our values is that we're not always having to tell him what to do all the time and checking on him and nagging him.

40:53 Margi Dehlin Did he notice we were like nagging him all the time and saying those things?

40:57 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah. And he was super connected. He's like, yeah, I hate it when you guys do that. It almost demotivates me. And so what Margie had him do, she sat down with him and she had him make a list of the things he's supposed to do every morning and the list of things he's supposed to do every night. And we sort of put a timeline together of what needs to be done by what time. And we just sort of said, we're not going to nag you anymore. We're not going to remind you, we're not going to bug you. But there's certain parts of that ritual that he really enjoys, like getting a little nighttime tea or a little back scratch from Margie, or he likes his screen time, you know, with either, you know, his Sony PlayStation or his cell phone. And we sort of, we sort of tied some of those privileges to his ability to complete the list and to be self driven. And it's really fun to see Winston waking himself up and checking his list. And it makes him feel better about himself.

41:57 Margi Dehlin And not only that, but he like added to the list. So we did. We started with the basics where we were like, make your bed and do these things. And we were chronically stressed because he would be late. So a lot of it was just to be on time. But then all of a sudden he adds, I kind of want to make my own breakfast every morning. Yeah.

42:15 John Dehlin So now every morning, instead of us making Winston breakfast, he's up there making himself breakfast. He's waking up extra early. So that's the crazy thing. What we were doing was building resentment and demotivating him. And it wasn't effective and it was frustrating all of us. But by sitting down with him, getting in touch with values, and then sharing emotional intimacy and connecting with him, he ended up not only doing the things he needed to do, but adding to them in a really beautiful way. And so far, so good.

42:45 Margi Dehlin Yeah. And I would just say the key to that is being consistent and being willing to honestly have the natural consequences spelled out. And if, if it isn't met or if things go awry, then you honestly have to. That's where the rubber hits the road, where you have to say, oh, I'm sorry, you know, do you remember last night? And it didn't quite work out, you know, but let's try again. And you're doing really great on this one. And, you know, so anyway, love it.

43:15 John Dehlin All right, so before we get to ritual, which is our next thing, Patricia writes, knowing that each of our children are different and how we approach them and teach them will be different. So she's basically just saying not all of our kids are going to respond to the same approach in the same way. And knowing that kids are different and sometimes isn't that the truth. Require different responses is a really key.

43:41 Margi Dehlin I know sometimes you get that, you know, rhythm and structure, and not only that, but something that works for a child at a certain time. All of a sudden, you realize it's not working anymore. So parenting, it just really keeps you on your. On your toes.

43:57 John Dehlin Mike writes 70% of communication is body language. So learn effective body language. Speak your truth through your body language. I love that. Rachel says we need to write a book. I agree. Can we write a book, please? Will you write a book with me?

44:13 Margi Dehlin Yes, I'll write a book.

44:14 John Dehlin Margie's gonna write a book with me. You heard it first. You guys hold her to that and hold me to that. All right, let's see. All right, Margie, so now it is time to talk about ritual.

44:27 Margi Dehlin I love ritual.

44:28 John Dehlin And if you're. If those of you are still tuned in, there's 56 of you tuned in. Please start writing in the Facebook comments some of your family rituals, because we will share them with the listening audience. And we know that many of you have way better or way cool rituals that are just as good or better than ours. But Margie does an amazing, masterful job at ritual. So I'm going to shut up and let you tell us about the rituals you've shared in our family.

44:53 Margi Dehlin Thank you, bae. Here's the thing about ritual. You know how we were talking about embodiment and kind of reviewing some of those values, and the first step was

45:03 John Dehlin just values and then embodiment and ritual.

45:07 Margi Dehlin Ritual. This is such a great place to start if you pick a value that you can't really see, right? And so you're looking through and you've taken care of sort of your part of saying, what would it look like if I embodied this value? But what if in your family life, you don't really have spaces for it to live and breathe that value? Ritual is a perfect place to begin to have it sort of. This is where your value show up in your daily life. It's where your children will feel it in Your schedule, they'll feel it from your embodiment, they'll feel it from your person. But this is where you actually create space to say, this is important and it will happen. So I love them. I think they're grounding. I find them really connecting, and they're really fulfilling. Really simple things go a really long way. So what are some examples of rituals from our home?

46:06 John Dehlin Do you want to start?

46:08 Margi Dehlin Sure. One thing that I would say is just we treat morning and evening as special times, so when our children wake up, they'll get a good morning. We normally make a meal for them before they go to school. Then we also end their days with usually reading time. And I normally make tea, and I usually end sort of as they're going to sleep with a massage or I'll, you know, tickle their back or do something soothing and connecting with them. But morning and evening, we slow down time and we show up to connect with them.

46:48 John Dehlin And I love that Margie has this amazing ritual where she goes to the library every week and buys cool books for the kids to read. So every night before they go to bed, they can just run to the book bag and grab a book that either they requested or that Margie thought they'd like, and they always have something to read. For those of you who want your kids to become readers, that is a masterful ritual that Margie implemented. And our kids are all. Were all readers growing up, which is something I wasn't. So I'm really thrilled that you implemented that ritual.

47:25 Margi Dehlin Thanks, honey. Other ideas? So we could start with daily. You can also do weekly rituals, but some other daily ones would be dinner together. We try to do that most evenings where we sit down definitely five or

47:43 John Dehlin six times a week. We have a family dinner.

47:46 Margi Dehlin I try to make a fresh, relatively healthy, very tasty meal. And we do gratitude. Now we share gratitude in lieu of a prayer because that kind of makes everyone feel great.

48:04 John Dehlin Another ritual, when we stopped going to church, during different phases of our journey, we were really conditioned to think that you had to have structure on Sunday or you couldn't have thoughtful, spiritual, moral kids. We've relaxed on that a little bit, but we have several Sunday rituals that have been really rewarding for us. So we wake up in the morning and we usually try and make some type of big breakfast. You know, eggs, bacon, hash browns, waffles, pancakes, whatever it is. And for me, one of the most magical parenting times of our entire married life. And by the way, you can do rituals. If you're single, you can do rituals if you're a couple without kids, this is. You know, we talk about kids because we have them, but this applies to everyone. But one of the most sacred times for me is that moment Sunday morning. The kids have kind of rolled out of bed, we've eaten this big breakfast, and then we're just sitting around the living room, and conversation just erupts, whether it's someone's date the night before or something that they've been thinking about or something they read. And sometimes the, you know, four or five or six of us will just get into this really thoughtful, loving, intense, passionate, intimate conversation that only happens once. You've got this ritual that provides the structure and the soil for the intimacy to grow. And so that combination of, you know, morning breakfast, space for conversation. Margie just loves Sunday hikes. So sometimes we. Pretty much always on a Sunday, we'll pick a trail and go hiking. Those are just amazing times for intimacy. And it all happens because of the structure of the ritual.

50:00 Margi Dehlin Yeah, we did do a. Redefine our Sabbath kind of thing, just to look at the values of a Sunday with new eyes that reflected our family, I think, at the time. So at different times, we've done Super Soul Sunday.

50:17 John Dehlin What is that?

50:18 Margi Dehlin Which is like an Oprah program that still is. Is quite. What would you say, spiritual in nature. She brings on a guest of sorts of. But we have stopped doing that. And I think the culture in our family has shifted a little bit. And the kids really love a newstime show.

50:37 John Dehlin So we'll watch 60 Minutes as a family on Sunday morning or early afternoon. 60 Minutes has a good variety. Like, you know, last week, I'm thinking it was like someone who. A lawyer from the Nuremberg trials. But then they had a segment on, like, the Boston Red Sox. And it gives personal interest stories and news items that have broad appeal. And us sitting down to watch 60 Minutes as a family and then talk about what we saw, that has provided some really powerful moments. And it's just, you know, it's like, up. It's Sunday news time, and we'll go down and watch the news.

51:17 Margi Dehlin And having said that, sometimes they don't want to do it, and so we don't. Or they want a shorter version. So we'll say, how about a TED Talk? Do you guys want to. You guys can pick it. Any topic you want. I think it's important to be flexible and to allow. We don't like forcing our kids to do things they don't want to do. So having a lot of options. What are some other things to do.

51:41 John Dehlin Some of the listeners have added. We'll just mention a few, and then you can mention others as well. Alicia writes, I'm always excited to see my kids. I make sure they know it. Hugs after school, meet them at the door. After work or being with friends, I always find a way to show them that I'm happy to see them. Thank you, Alicia.

51:59 Margi Dehlin I bet they feel that, too. Alicia.

52:01 John Dehlin Jacob writes, communication with my kids is so essential. At dinner, we always talk about the day with them. No matter what happened the day no one is in trouble, we have to keep that communication open so we know where they are at. Life. It is amazing that we talk about. It's amazing what we talk about and how they feel safe telling us what is going on in their lives. And it sounds, Jacob, like you're modeling this idea of connection and intimacy where even if the kid tells you, I skipped school or I punched a kid in the face, instead of destroying the family experience by getting mad and punishing them, you're basically saying getting in trouble's off limits.

52:43 Margi Dehlin Not to say, Jacob, that your children are saying that as the dinner meal,

52:47 John Dehlin but you're basically saying connection over control and manipulation. Alicia writes, we also have a dance party.

52:55 Margi Dehlin Dance parties are the best.

52:57 John Dehlin While we do chores together, makes it fun and enforces my favorite value, cleanliness.

53:03 Margi Dehlin Great.

53:05 John Dehlin Yeah. And then Patricia writes, we talk about our day at dinner also. However, for one, for every one negative thing, we also have them tell us two positive things if they want. Hugs, kisses, and I love you is always before they leave the house when they come home. And I love that of like, just going around the table. Maybe you don't have a prayer anymore, but what's wrong with going around the table and saying a few things you're grateful for and a few things that went wrong that's really positive. So thank you, Patricia and Alicia and Jacob and others for sharing some of your rituals. Were there others you wanted to add?

53:40 Margi Dehlin You know, the only other thing I'd say is you can. So as a couple, you can have rituals. One thing that John and I do regularly is we try to walk together, we run together, and we've recently started doing CrossFit together. And those are always. I mean, they're just times where you kind of reach for one another in your days. And I just think it's a beautiful thing. And it. I always feel better on those days that we do that, so. And then recently, Clara and I have been attacking parenthood together.

54:11 John Dehlin Okay, so there's a TV show that if you haven't seen it. It is probably the best TV show Margie and I have ever experienced. And all throughout our 20, whatever, three, four years of marriage, depending on how you count. We've always watched TV shows, and Parenthood by far is the best.

54:29 Margi Dehlin And it's great to watch with teens, like, older, kind of 14 to 18. I find it brings out and it reflects our values. We kind of look at it and think, you know, we really appreciate the values it portrays there and the way it portrays family not being perfect, but working through difficulty, being there for one another. And it really doesn't dance around difficult topics.

54:56 John Dehlin And our teens love it. So if you've not checked out the Parenthood TV show, check it out. It's outstanding.

55:04 Margi Dehlin Yeah. So just a final thing around rituals. Be creative. Allow it.

55:11 John Dehlin Julie writes this Is Us. Oh, yeah, That's a great show, too. We love this Is Us. So thanks for the tip, Julie.

55:17 Margi Dehlin We're on the same page.

55:18 John Dehlin This Is Us is also a fantastic show.

55:21 Margi Dehlin Absolutely. Anyway, be creative, start small and stay simple. There's no need to, like, be the overachiever here. A little goes a long way. And don't forget the daily versus the weekly. You can have weekly rituals and daily.

55:40 John Dehlin All right, moving on the next topic. So we've got. Let's see if I get this right. Values. And then on top of that, embodiment living, you know, practicing what you preach, walking the. Walking the talk. And then on top of that, you've got rituals. This is the Margi pyramid, which is sort of the Margi family pyramid.

56:02 Margi Dehlin Yeah. It's the structure with which your values,

56:05 John Dehlin rituals, your life are the sort of like, daily or weekly time structure that. That acts as the vessel to deliver the behavior that's based on the values.

56:18 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

56:18 John Dehlin Margie's next sort of level is tradition, which is a little bit like values or a little bit like ritual, but it's actually a little bit different because it's sort of seasonal and it's slightly different than ritual and maybe in different ways. So, Margie, talk about why you think tradition is an important level in your pyramid of family connection.

56:43 Margi Dehlin Well, here's the deal. Here's why I differentiate. Tradition happens. Can happen a little less frequently. Right. Than rituals. But I don't know, when I look back in my life, I don't know if you all are the same way. There's sort of an emotional impact around traditions. So that would be like holidays, like birthdays, like, there's emotional impact there that makes it memorable. So I just wanted to harness that A little bit. They may happen less frequently, but the emotional impact oftentimes is considerable. So these can be anything from birthdays, holidays, vacations, celebrating the first day of school. I think it's important to note you can create your own tradition, your own holiday. It could be the last. The last day of school. It can be a coming of age, some sort of age you want to celebrate with your children. It can be around seasons, the first day of fall, winter solstice. So you. You can actually create your own as well. So an example from our home that I chose as. Yeah, just to focus on our birthdays. So when our children were little, I started to reflect on how I wanted to celebrate their birth, their entrance into the world, and what I felt like would be important. So taking our values into consideration, it would be. Be like connection and, you know, having them feel really, really loved and safe and. And so. And sometimes those things get lost in parties. Sometimes they're there, but not always. And sometimes with gifts, they're not there. They can be, but they're not always. And so I wanted to create these traditions that would make sure that our children felt celebrated. And so a couple of things that I thought I would share. We started doing a tradition of writing our kids a letter. So John and I alternate. And once a year on their birthday. I'll show you. This is Clara's book. So they get a book, but you don't have to have a book. You can start anytime. You can start when they're five, six. So we alternate writing a letter around their birthday and sharing what kind of person they are, how the years been, their achievements, things that have been hard, joys that we, you know, we share with them. And so here is Winston's. This is what Winston's looks like as well. And so each of our children have these letters, and we read them out loud after we have their dinner.

59:16 John Dehlin Birthday dinner.

59:17 Margi Dehlin Yeah. So they choose their meals for the. For the day.

59:20 John Dehlin Breakfast, lunch and dinner.

59:22 Margi Dehlin And after the dinner, cake and ice cream. We get them all nice and sweetened up and satisfied. They can open their gifts. Whoever wrote the letter that year reads the letter. And it's this place to just sort of bask in them and celebrate them. And, you know, a lot of it may feel redundant to them because it's that year, but I'll tell you, they go back just, you know, Anna and Maya will go back when they're five and read their fifth. And you know what you don't remember? You don't remember what your favorite songs were, what you were like. And they've really, really.

59:54 John Dehlin Things that were hard that year for things that, you know, your accomplishments. What these, what these birthday letter journals end up being is sort of a chronicle of the highlights and lowlights and areas of growth of their. Of their 18 years at home, basically.

1:00:11 Margi Dehlin Yeah. And one thing that I was reflecting on as I was writing, thinking about Clara's letter this year was, you know, I lost my dad in November, and. And there's this piece where you just. You miss them. You miss their voice. You miss how they loved you or how they. Especially with a parent that, you know, you really felt connected to. And one thing I thought about with these letters and I've told the kids, this is when we're gone, you can still hear me because I'm right here. And you can know the things I loved about you. And you can get this sense, my love, through these letters, each year that you lived. And so that's something that came to me recently. Another thing we do with birthdays is we do a trivia game around the table. So this is an example of, like, Clara's is here note, like, not super fancy. It's, like done on white paper colored by a child, where we ask things about the kid, the child, the birthday child.

1:01:18 John Dehlin So I'll read an example.

1:01:19 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:01:20 John Dehlin So this one says, what is Claire's favorite childhood soundtrack? Celine Dion's miracle cd? Raffi, Innocence Mission or Nicolette Larson? And we'll have different trivia questions, and each person at the table will have to read, and then everyone will give their best guess. We try and pick things that not everyone knows or that aren't always obvious.

1:01:44 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:01:45 John Dehlin And the purpose.

1:01:47 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Is to get to know the child and have the child. And it's fun. I mean, here's. Who is Clara's favorite Parenthood character? You know, I mean, it's just kind of a fun way.

1:01:57 John Dehlin Is it Sarah, Julia, Amber or Max? For those of you who watch Parenthood, I want to hear what your favorite

1:02:06 Margi Dehlin can see if you're right.

1:02:07 John Dehlin Parenthood character is.

1:02:08 Margi Dehlin Anyways, so those are some things we do. Another thing that we do is we have photos of the child on the table around when we're eating the dinner. It's decorated with them from all ages. And we also open scrapbooks. So you know how if you order, organize. I did that for a bit. I haven't done that for a while. But we take those out and open them up and they can go through those for the day. We watch videos of them when they were younger. Oftentimes after the meal. It really is just this way to connect with the fact that they are loved, they are treasured, that we, that we look at their life and we marvel at them. Right. That's birthdays.

1:02:55 John Dehlin And that happens every single birthday, every single year. And it's a lot of work. Margie puts a lot of work and love into it, but I know the kids really treasure it. There are a few more rituals and or traditions that people are sharing. Kimberly writes, for years we would bond over making Irish stew and we would include a Guinness stout beer at the very end of putting all the ingredients into the pot. Pouring the beer in took an interesting ritualistic aspect. And I would always save a swig at the very end. Shame on you, Kimberly. Just kidding. After drinking the last drink. No shame. We're anti shame. After drinking the last drink, I'd say to the kids, all things in moderation. That's actually the opposite of shame. That's really powerful. I think they would get the subtle hint that it's okay to live an ethical life rather than a rule bound life. Wow, Kimberly. The hair on my arm is standing up. That was really beautiful. And then Patricia writes, we have family game nights and spouse date night. Those are great rituals. Those are a few weekly things. Daily we have dinner together every night, except sometimes if my husband and I eat out on a date. Then there are holidays with family traditions that have been handed down with each generation. Love the sharing. Kimberly and Patricia. Everyone else. Jennifer says, margie, I wish I was your neighbor. I would want to hang out with you every day.

1:04:28 Margi Dehlin Me too.

1:04:29 John Dehlin Ann says, I do the trivia thing too, but the letters are so great. Remembering the love and treasures year after year. I love it. Lolly says Crosby or Adam are her favorite parenthood character. Good choice, Lolly. Julie says she picks Max. Yeah. No, no, no. She says, I bet she picked Max. But Julie loves Julia.

1:04:52 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:04:52 John Dehlin That's amazing. All right, so we have a few Parenthood fans and Lolly writes, Sunday night, movie night. What a great tradition. Popcorn and juice. Yeah.

1:05:03 Margi Dehlin Sometimes we go on the news and we're like, let's just watch something fun. Popcorn treats. Love that.

1:05:10 John Dehlin Our own Amy Grubbs. I'm excited to have a comment from Amy. She writes, years ago, we created a kids Day. Our daughter asked us why there was a Mother's Day and a Father's Day and why we didn't have a day celebrating children. We've done that. We did that in Seattle. We had a Kids Day. So we decided years ago to add a kid's Day that falls in between mothers and Father's Day. So kind of late May, I'm guessing.

1:05:33 Margi Dehlin I love that you schedule it too.

1:05:35 John Dehlin Yeah, that's probably crucial.

1:05:37 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Because otherwise tying it to the calendar.

1:05:40 John Dehlin So they have a kids day between Mother's Day and Father's Day. And we let our daughter choose however she wants to spend this day. And we celebrate being a kid.

1:05:48 Margi Dehlin Really Brilliant.

1:05:49 John Dehlin Yeah. They get the whole day right. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, like activities.

1:05:55 Margi Dehlin Creating a tradition for yourself that matches your. I love that too.

1:05:59 John Dehlin And they spend the day celebrating their kid. She is now 16. Shout out to Mikayla. But now she still loves it. And we all look forward to it.

1:06:08 Margi Dehlin I love it.

1:06:08 John Dehlin I love it.

1:06:09 Margi Dehlin And again, no need to make it complicated. So the birthday one is a little involved. I'll say. But I do love this too. With Christmas time, you know, a lot of times it. Things get, like, very stressful very quickly. Where you end up more is you're doing more and more and more. And I love the values conversation as a place to start. Like, what do we value? And then you build traditions in around those holidays that actually reflect that versus racing through and having, like, the culture, our culture, sort of determine what your Christmas feels like or. So there you go. I empower you to create traditions that reflect you and make you really happy.

1:06:54 John Dehlin That's nice of you to empower them.

1:06:55 Margi Dehlin I know you don't need that, but it was encouraging. Right.

1:07:00 John Dehlin I'll take some Margie. Empowerment.

1:07:02 Margi Dehlin So anyway. Okay, we're on the final block, y', all, so thanks for hanging in there.

1:07:07 John Dehlin Block number five.

1:07:09 Margi Dehlin That's right. And it's actually one of my favorite blocks.

1:07:12 John Dehlin Yeah. And you can see a little bit of it right above us here. So tell us.

1:07:16 Margi Dehlin Some years ago, though.

1:07:17 John Dehlin Tell us about it.

1:07:18 Margi Dehlin It has the Mormon vibe still. So it's downstairs. I wouldn't say that's totally, but that was Seattle. That was a Seattle.

1:07:25 John Dehlin Those listening have no idea what we're talking about. So tell us. Tell us what.

1:07:29 Margi Dehlin So the final block in building a family culture would be your home environment. Makes sense. Right? But the way I would say it is, like, what's your home vibe? What's the vibe of your home? And the idea behind this is sort of how can your home reflect what you value? How can you get those values, like, to be felt when people are in your home? And so you can consider ways to convey your values in your home environment. So we'll give you a couple examples of values that we have and then how our home would reflect the values, just to give you, again, something practical.

1:08:09 John Dehlin And so in all our main rooms of our house, so we have a value of learning and of education and of reading, frankly. And in all of the main rooms of our house, so the home teacher room. I don't know what to call it. We've got it. When you rock right in the door, turn right. There's a home teacher room. And then in the main living room, and then in each of the kids bedrooms, there's a shelf, a bookshelf. And on those bookshelves, we don't try and have every book, but we try and include books that represent important historical figures or important, you know, themes or concepts. So my Kaim Potok books, you know, my name is Asher Lev, or David's Harp or the Chosen or the Promise

1:08:52 Margi Dehlin are there, frankly, like our favorite books. Yeah.

1:08:56 John Dehlin You know, biographies of Winston Churchill or Franklin D. Roosevelt and Eleanor Roosevelt or Harry Truman or.

1:09:05 Margi Dehlin I have more fiction.

1:09:07 John Dehlin Harry Potter or some of your classic favorites. What are some of yours?

1:09:12 Margi Dehlin I kind of run the gamut with things, but I have, like, Steinbeck or I have Edith Wharton or I have. Who else do I love? Wallace Stegner or. But we're in there.

1:09:24 John Dehlin And these bookshelves, really, we don't read those books anymore. But they represent and reflect our values of learning and of heroes and of character and of virtues.

1:09:34 Margi Dehlin And our children have them, too.

1:09:36 John Dehlin Yeah.

1:09:37 Margi Dehlin Yep, they have their own. So I've kept the kids books that they most love. They've gone through them and saved. Because I'm a bit of a minimalist. Like, I love everything to sort of have value, if possible, in our home. And so they've gone through and picked their favorites. And then they have theirs from their teen years growing up. They keep kind of their favorites, the ones that they feel like were really formative or special to them.

1:10:01 John Dehlin And the point here is that the physical surroundings of your home be designed in a way that they reflect and reinforce your values.

1:10:10 Margi Dehlin You want them to read, so you have books.

1:10:12 John Dehlin So having our favorite books kept invisible places in the bookshelves of our main rooms of our home is one way that our whole family is continually reminded of that value of learning and of character and of integrity.

1:10:28 Margi Dehlin Another thing we do is that we have subscriptions to magazines that sort of reflect our children's interests. So for Claire and Winston, for example, right now they're really into this magazine, Pool Muse, which is like a science magazine. And they really love that it's been different at different times. So that's another thing. It Comes in the mail. It kind of feels like a present, feels exciting. So sometimes we give those as stocking stuffers, a magazine subscription. That's kind of. What else do we do?

1:11:01 John Dehlin We sometimes watch documentaries together as a family. We listen to podcasts. Sometimes when we're traveling, we'll put a podcast on.

1:11:08 Margi Dehlin Or when I'm cooking.

1:11:10 John Dehlin Orange is cooking.

1:11:10 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:11:11 John Dehlin And we'll listen to it. We try and listen to classical music. I already mentioned our news time on Sunday mornings. But we take every chance we can to talk about what we've read or talk about what we've learned.

1:11:21 Margi Dehlin We like to share.

1:11:23 John Dehlin And it reinforces that value of learning.

1:11:24 Margi Dehlin Oh, the other thing is one of. I have a magazine subscription to Psychology Today, which is totally nerdy.

1:11:31 John Dehlin It's a great magazine.

1:11:32 Margi Dehlin It's totally dirty. But I.

1:11:34 John Dehlin She knows more about psychology than I do, by the way.

1:11:36 Margi Dehlin I really, really love it. So I'll, like, for dinner discuss an article or we'll kind of debate sort of an idea to something and it's super fun. So. But you can use whatever your interest is, you know, Anyway, so another example of having a value be reflected in your home environment. Let's say the value was sharing vulnerability. So the kind of deeper layer underneath that is safety, Right? You want your children to sort of feel safe in the environment. So to me, that manifests in like soft blankets, candles, warm drinks on hand, good food, nice music in the background, bird feeder outside the window, like calming. And then the fact that each child. We've worked hard, we don't, we're not super fancy people, but each child has a room that reflects them, that they can sort of retreat to and feel safe and feel similar comforts in their own rooms. And I was just going to say, you know, clearly the emotional climate of the home of safety you would want to, you know, look at as well to match the physical. But that's an example of looking at vulnerability and feeling like, what does this like a safe, peaceful, calm environment. If we want people to share and feel safe, to do so, what would that look like, feel like, smell like? So that is another way to do that.

1:13:15 John Dehlin And then the final example of how Margie's tried to have our surroundings reflect our values is in there's probably five or six places in our home where Margie's put up little signs. And so those of you watching right now, you can see a little sign that's right above our heads. And it's a sort of a Buddhist inspired quote that says, nothing is worth more than this day. And that's sort of the, you know, the Buddhist philosophy that if you focus on the past, you can't change it. If you focus on the future, you may not get it. So what's most important is now. And so we have a sign reflecting that. There's another Gandhi quote that says, be the change you wish to see in the world. That's a reminder to our whole family that we need to live into the thing, not just complain about the thing. Mary Oliver, there's a quote in my office that says something to the effect of, tell me, what is it that you plan to do with this one? Wild and precious life or ride life. Yeah. And it's just about making the most of every moment and seizing the day. Carpe diem sort of stuff.

1:14:24 Margi Dehlin Right. And above where we eat, we have a quote by George Eliot that says, what is it that we live for if it is not to make life less difficult for each other? So that's another very physical way that you can think about putting your values literally on the walls and have them reflected there and be reminded of them. So just some ideas.

1:14:50 John Dehlin I love it really quickly. To check in with our listeners, Shirley writes, at Christmas, we hang out kids baby shoes on the tree. When they grow up and leave home, they get one shoe of the pair as a symbol of our continuing connection and the joy we experience because they are our children. Wow. That's a beautiful thing.

1:15:13 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:15:14 John Dehlin Shannon writes, I think adopting or buying a dog or a cat is a great way to teach a child responsibility. I love that.

1:15:21 Margi Dehlin It can also really add to just sort of a really nice cozy family vibe. People really love their pets.

1:15:28 John Dehlin Some pets. Not all pets.

1:15:30 Margi Dehlin Not all pets.

1:15:31 John Dehlin Patricia writes, we have tons of books as well and a diverse collection. We have had to replace well loved books many times. Music and movies and shows are all great.

1:15:39 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:15:40 John Dehlin Gosh, this has been a great discussion. Wow, that's so nice. Thank you, Patricia. Let's see. Yeah. Michelle writes, this is just a lovely discussion. I've been laughing, I've gotten tearful and I'm feeling inspired. Thank you. So thank you, Michelle. We're glad you like it.

1:15:59 Margi Dehlin All right, well, so that's kind of what we, we have today is just sort of, if it's interested you at all, this idea of creating a family culture, then we do have this idea of like a weekly challenge where we leave you with like something to sort of focus you or challenge you in the next week. And if you like to, and if that feels good to you, one thing I would challenge you to do is sit down and have that values discussion and see what your partner and you can come up with or what your kids and you come up with. And then begin from there to do the embodiment and then the rituals and traditions and lastly your home environment, how all those can build to this hopefully magnificent space that you all create together.

1:16:52 John Dehlin And I'm sure most of you or all of you are already doing a lot of this. So it's just fun kind of sharing that with you. Hasn't it been great to get listeners share their rituals?

1:17:04 Margi Dehlin Thanks so much for participating.

1:17:06 John Dehlin And those of you who are listening asynchronously, you know, just to the podcast, you know, go up to Mormon Stories and share your rituals or your traditions on the comments page of MormonStories.org or if you're on YouTube and you're watching this on YouTube after we posted it, go share it there. What's wrong with filling up YouTube and blog comments instead of with vitriol and negativity, filling it with positivity and with ideas.

1:17:32 Margi Dehlin And we really do benefit from hearing one another, from hearing from, sharing ideas. So we really appreciate it.

1:17:40 John Dehlin So, Margie, thank you for planning today's episode. I think it was lovely.

1:17:44 Margi Dehlin Well, thanks. A humble offering. So hopefully, I mean, you found one or two things that, you know, resonated or so.