Must-Have Resources for Navigating a Mormon Faith Crisis

0:20 John Dehlin Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. I am one of your three co hosts. My name is John Delin. What is your name?

0:30 Margi Dehlin My name is Margie Delyn. Hello, everyone.

0:34 Natasha Helfer And I am Natasha Helfer Parker. Hello.

0:38 John Dehlin Hi, Natasha. Thanks for joining me.

0:40 Natasha Helfer Hello, Delins. Nice to see you again.

0:44 John Dehlin We love you. Okay, so we have a kind of a special episode today. And the way that it's special in a weird sense is that it's different than anything we've done so far. And let me explain what I mean by that. So far on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast, we have been discussing different topics. And, you know, we just got done with a really good series on topics for women, special topics for women navigating Mormon faith Crisis. We've covered communicating with believing, family and friends. We've covered healthy marriages, sexuality. We've talked about grieving and how to handle your emotions. We've talked about how to deal with priesthood leadership, et cetera, et cetera. Lots of different things. This episode's a little bit different. What we have always envisioned for our website, MormonFaithCrisis.com is that it have a consolidated list of resources that people can consult when having a Mormon faith crisis. Because whenever we do workshops and retreats, whenever we do coaching, there's always just, you know, our goal, believe it or not, as coaches and therapists, is not to maximize the number of clients we have or the number of hours. I know personally, as much as I love coaching, if I never had to coach another client because everyone didn't need it and everyone was okay, I'd be fine with that. I would just do other things. Do you feel that way, Margie?

2:23 Natasha Helfer Natasha, I love the work I do. I think I would do something. I always find it interesting that we have to talk about certain issues that we are talking about. So.

2:36 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

2:37 John Dehlin Oh, like money and stuff?

2:39 Natasha Helfer No, I mean, like, I don't. You know, we obviously focus on faith transitions because we've seen such a need of that for that in the last, like 10 years, especially at least in my practice. But if I wasn't focusing on faith transitions, there's like 500 other thousand mental health disorders and mental health concerns that I could focus on. So I'm just saying I would probably love to do this work regardless.

3:01 John Dehlin Yeah, I love this work too, for sure.

3:03 Natasha Helfer I just don't know. I mean, it's kind of like every time there's like a general conference talk and I'm like, well, I just got busier but I didn't want to be busier in that way. Does that make sense?

3:17 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

3:17 John Dehlin Yeah.

3:18 Natasha Helfer Okay.

3:19 John Dehlin Well, the only reason I say that is just because it's really important for me as a coach not to have the goal of maximizing my hours, but instead to have the goal of maximizing the well being of my clients. And if that involves one on one sessions with me or workshops or retreats, that's great. But my approach to coaching is if I can give my clients podcasts or books or communities or experts or resources that allows them to heal and grow without having to pay hourly to me, I am, and I know you do this too. I am more than willing to do that. And that's the spirit of this list, and that's the spirit of today's episode is wanting our listeners and viewers and friends and everyone to know about our best attempt, Margie, me, Natasha, at putting together a list of books, websites, podcasts, you know, movies, communities, therapists and coaches, or networks of therapists and coaches, TED talks, and even music for people navigating a faith crisis. And so if all you do, listeners or viewers, is go to mormonfaithcrisis.com resources, check out our list and then begin giving us feedback on what you like, what you don't like, what you want us to change. Mission accomplished. And most importantly, if you just consult the list to the extent that you think it would help you, that's what this episode's about. We're going to be talking today about the list that we've put together. Natasha, would you like to add anything as kind of a disclaimer?

5:13 Natasha Helfer Well, obviously this list is not comprehensive. It's our best shot at thinking about this for about a week. And so we hope to not offend anybody if we've left anything out. I'm sure we have. So let us know.

5:29 John Dehlin Oh, no, it's for sure we have. Just before the, just before the. That we went live, somebody's like, you forgot Dan Vogel, you forgot the Tanners. And I'm like, oh my gosh, those are some of the most obvious possible things to remember.

5:46 Natasha Helfer So anyway, yeah, so we're not. This is just kind of our first attempt and we're going to. And it's going to be like, I usually like lists to be fluid. I like them to be fluid where we can shift and change and add and edit.

6:02 John Dehlin Yeah, absolutely. And so. And so listeners, what we're going to be, and viewers, what we're going to be doing today is just at a high level, talking about some of our favorite from this list, books, podcasts, you know, TED talks, communities, etc. Just. And we could probably do TED talks or we could probably do episodes on each one of these categories, books or podcasts or communities or whatever. And we probably will. But for now, we just wanted to build awareness about this list to get your feedback and to get it in front of you so that you can check it out. Margie, what do you want to add?

6:44 Margi Dehlin No, I feel like we've covered it.

6:46 Natasha Helfer Hey, I'm gonna do a plug for something since we're on here. So as I've been working with, if you're a therapist or a coach or an educator or anybody that works with people and trying to help them through faith transition type of issues. A big reason why I and several other colleagues founded the Mormon Mental Health association about four or five years ago now was to be able to have a directory, people that we felt we could trust to not impose their own either religious or non religious bias onto clients who are either in mixed faith marriages or wanting to have an individual therapist where they feel like they can be, you know, open and talk about their church issues without feeling like, you know, the LDS therapist or somebody else doesn't really quite get what they're talking about. So we are having our Mormon Mental Health association annual conference coming up August 1st. John and I will be doing a presentation on how to work with faith transitioners. So we're going to be like educating other professionals on how to work with faith transitioners. Marty Erickson, Dr. Marty Erickson and Amy Heffernan are going to be teaching and talking about how to work with mixed faith marriages in particular. And there's going to be a three hour ethics, which all of us, at least who are licensed, need three hours of ethics in regards to working with people of faith, people transitioning from faith and watching your own issues with faith, you know, in that whole process. So hugely, hugely beneficial to anybody who wants to become more competent and able to work with this population, which is all of us. So August 1st, it's in conjunction with the Sunstone Symposium. In fact, if you want to attend both, there's a discount Sunstone is offering to those who are going to be attending the MMHA conference. So you can look all of that up at the Mormon Mental Health Association's website, which is on this resource page.

8:55 John Dehlin Love it. And yeah, it's gonna be fun to present with you, Natasha.

8:59 Natasha Helfer We've never done that before, John.

9:03 John Dehlin Not to this crowd.

9:05 Natasha Helfer That's true, actually. That's true. I don't think we've done a professional presentation before. We better get our act together. I better call you.

9:14 John Dehlin I forgot exactly how to do professional presentations. It's been a little bit. I've jumped so much into my work that it's been a little bit since I've done that. No, I'm just kidding.

9:24 Natasha Helfer It'll be great. We'll do it.

9:27 John Dehlin All right. Well, we always want to give a special shout out and welcome to those who are joining us on Facebook live. Shout out to Linda de Azevedo, to Rachelle, to Ashley Nelson and all those who are joining us. Jennifer Rooney White's there, Penny. Even Margie's brother Tim has checked in, so. Hey, Tim, we're excited for you guys to participate on this presentation with us. McLean Juggler writes, Just do your karaoke to George Michael before your presentation. McClain's referring to our thrive performance of I Want your well, a George Michaels song. We're trying to keep this faith friendly.

10:14 Natasha Helfer So, hey, sex is very faith friendly. I want your sex as a very faith friendly concept. So there we go.

10:24 John Dehlin I'm trusting you.

10:26 Natasha Helfer We want to sexually and intimately connect with with each other, especially our spouses, regardless of our faith issues.

10:36 John Dehlin All right, I'm with you. So thanks to all our donors that have donated. If you love this stuff, please support us because we need your support to keep this going. It's all under the Open Stories Foundation. Your donations are tax deductible. Go to mormonfaithcrisis.com Click on the Donate button, choose whatever donation amount works for you. 10, 50, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. And you'll not only help yourself, but you'll help others in future generations who are navigating a faith crisis. So please support us. All right, so let's dig in. We've got this big list that we've just put together this morning. Those of you who are joining us right now can go to mormonfaithcrisis.com resources. Again, this is the first draft. There's a lot we've forgotten. There's probably a lot of other categories we haven't included. And it's not meant to be comprehensive. We're never going to have a list of all podcasts, all books, you know, all TED talks relevant. We're trying to make this list kind of a greatest hits of resources that are of highest impact to date and stuff that are favorites of me, Margie and Natasha. So that's what the list is. And let's go through some of them just to give our audience a sample. And we also want to ask our live audience what, what things they would recommend as well. The first category that we have are books and websites, and the first subcategory of that are resources or books or websites related to Mormon truth claims. And of course, what should probably come to many of your mind are resources like Jeremy Runnells Letter to a CES director, Mormon Think the Tanner's Resources of Mormonism Shadow and Reality Letter for My Wife has been an important Internet resource. Mormon Stories Podcast has a truth claims initiative that you can go to. And then there's several books that are just real classics, like Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History. For me, the best book ever written about Joseph Smith or Mormon history. Dan Vogel's Joseph Smith the Making of a Prophet is a close second. Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Carolyn Pearson's book the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. And I have on there David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. Those are some of my favorites. Margie, do you have anything you want to add or anything you want to sort of echo with that list of truth claims websites and books?

13:10 Margi Dehlin No, not really.

13:12 John Dehlin I know you read at least no Man Knows My History. Was that an important book to you?

13:16 Margi Dehlin Uh huh. Why for sure? Oh, I feel like at the time it was my first exposure to sort of a historical version of things. So yeah, it was deeply impactful.

13:33 John Dehlin Okay. Natasha, anything you want to comment about any of those books or resources?

13:38 Natasha Helfer The only thing I think of now that may we could have included on here is Rough Stone Rolling.

13:43 John Dehlin Yeah. And honestly, I don't want to be rude, I didn't include that because it's such a slog of a read for some people. Like, the good news is a patriarch wrote it. He's a great historian, he's well respected. But many people find that book to be a slog. And so in the spirit of having it be accessible. Accessible, but also just best of the best. I actually like Dan Vogel's book more than Richard Bushman's, but you're probably right, we probably should include it.

14:15 Natasha Helfer Well, and maybe it's because for a lot of people, because it's a Deseret book, you know, book. It's like first access to something. Sometimes we don't get to the CES letter first, you know, that's a step stone. I felt like Rough Stone Rolling was a good conversation starter for people of belief.

14:40 John Dehlin Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It kind of feels safe, right?

14:47 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

14:47 Natasha Helfer And then. And I'll just say too that just right off the bat, one thing, a category we don't have on here yet that we are going to start working on is resources for believers, believing friends and family that need support as well. So we didn't really include that today, but we're going to be working on that as a category.

15:08 John Dehlin Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll add Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling. I do think that's, that's an important book. And listeners, if you guys have any other books or websites that are really critical, we'll read them as you post them in the comments section right now because we always love your feedback. All right, so that's. And we have to just a shout out to Jeremy Runnels, his work. I think of, you know, the Tanners as pioneers and Jeremy Runnels as sort of a modern pioneer, along with Grant Palmer's and Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Those books are, you know, highlights, you know, along with Fawn Brody as like, if there were four things you had to read, I would narrow it down to that CES letter, you know, oh, it's so hard because Mormonthink was so important to so many people. But anyway, super important stuff. But a shout out to Jeremy, to the MormonThink people, to, to Farm Brody and Grant Palmer, who rest his soul, who've all done so much. You know, it's important stuff. All these people, it's just important. All these contributions are so important. There's so many more. All right, so there is a book on mixed faith marriages specifically. You know, what we don't have are a lot of books on helping people navigate a Mormon faith crisis, particularly more secular books. So I have a list of kind of faithful and apologetic books for navigating a Mormon faith Crisis, including Thomas McConkie's Navigating Mormon Faith Crisis. That was something you recommended. There's John Ogden's When Mormons Doubt, There's Terrell and Fiona Givens, the Crucible of Doubt, and there's Planted by Patrick Mason. All of those books are kind of faithful, apologetic. There's only one book I could think of that's kind of a secular book specifically written on the topic of navigating a Mormon faith crisis. And that's your book. Natasha, can you tell us about that book?

17:21 Natasha Helfer Well, what. It is a chapter in our book that we haven't written yet.

17:26 John Dehlin We need to freaking write. Are we ever gonna write that book?

17:32 Natasha Helfer I think we need to get on that. So, yeah.

17:35 Margi Dehlin But no,

17:37 John Dehlin this podcast is a precursor excuse for that book that needs to be written.

17:42 Natasha Helfer That's right. Yeah. I basically the Facebook group Mormon Mixed Faith Marriages invited me last year to write some thoughts about how to, you know, navigate a mixed faith marriage. And I took those thoughts and just kind of wrote a small but hopefully, you know, really to the point and just here's like some basic ideas and some ways that you can start talking about this to start somewhere. It's not necessarily a comprehensive type of book, but it's a good little kind of, you know, has some good tips and strategies and even written kind of in workbook style. So you can write some things in there, the two of you, and figure some things out, especially in that first part that can feel so tender and raw and difficult.

18:34 John Dehlin So, yeah, so yeah, check out Natasha's book. There's a link to it. Natasha always does great work. I've never seen her not do great work. So.

18:44 Natasha Helfer Thank you, John.

18:45 John Dehlin Check out that book. One Family, Two Views. How to fortify your mixed Faith Mormon marriage. We also have a webinar for those of you who would want to check out the mixed faith webinar that Natasha led. And I supported her a bit. If you go to mormonfaithcrisis.com webinars there's a webinar on navigating a mixed faith relationship that you can check out and it's useful. There's a whole list of books that we've started, the list that are kind of secular books not targeted to Mormonism but that deal with kind of gaining wisdom or deprogramming your mind or just seeing the world with new eyes kind of with a more secular or scientific lens. Margaret, do you want to list a book or two from that list that are valuable to you?

19:40 Margi Dehlin It for the wisdom depro or spirituality or any of them.

19:43 John Dehlin We're doing wisdom and deprogramming.

19:45 Margi Dehlin You know, for me, that list, the only one that I have a personal like would be Zealot. And I actually didn't even read that book. It was an interview. But I loved the interview on the book Zealot. That's another thing you can do if podcast is your language. You can go ahead and see if there are any interviews with the authority with some of these books. And that's what I did. It was Doug Fabrizio.

20:09 John Dehlin And this is the book the Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth by Reza Aslan. I think he's coming to Sunstone this year, but that's an important book. Natasha, are there any books from this list or that you haven't included that are important to you in this category?

20:27 Natasha Helfer Well, actually maybe this one needs to be in the other category. But Recovering Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control by Luna Lindsay. She wrote that book several years ago and approached me with it, gave me the book, asked me to look at it, and I'll say, you know, the only reason I probably haven't pushed that book more is just because it really does come from this. It was her choice in her language of mind control. And, you know, looking at it made more like recovery, like cult recovery type of stuff that, that actually has some validity to it. But since I'm always trying to stay in that middle ground and make everybody comfortable, I kind of stay away from things that maybe would be seen as more one sided, but it's actually very well done. And that is specifically on Mormonism and it's quite comprehensive.

21:25 John Dehlin Yeah. And we would have to also listen the book Combating Cult Mind Control by Stephen Hasson, who's been on Mormon Stories podcast. It's a groundbreaking book by the world's expert in cults. But shout out to Luna Lindsay. Is that a real name?

21:42 Natasha Helfer Yes, I believe so.

21:43 John Dehlin Okay.

21:44 Natasha Helfer Yeah. And she, and that's the one you just mentioned is I think cults in general, but this one in particular. And it's not that she writes necessarily about cults, but just the way she writes about it is more about the losing, you know, not being able to be a critical thinker within Mormonism. And I don't know, I really need to relook at it. It was well done.

22:05 John Dehlin Okay. Some of the books I like from this list on wisdom and deprogramming include Jonathan Haidtz, the Righteous Mind. I refer to that a lot, of course, Bart Ehrman's book Jesus Interrupted. But all of Bart Ehrman's series are great on understanding the Bible and Jesus better because we often deprogram, we kind of deconstruct Mormonism and then we forget that Christianity has its own issues. And that's not to say we're against Christianity or Christian beliefs. But, you know, for me to be consistent, you can't look at the Book of Mormon or the Wicked, we ever hear him with a certain level of scrutiny and then neglect the Bible. So those are important books, you know, others like Guns, Germs and Steel or Mistakes Were Made, but not by me being wrong, you know, Sapiens. These are all really classics, so just thought we'd mention those. We have a really good list of spirit of books around spirituality and mental health after Mormonism. Margie, do you want to list a couple of your favorites there?

23:05 Margi Dehlin Yeah, so some of my favorites. A New Earth, for sure. That was really great for me to just kind of understand my own brain, my own reactions to things.

23:14 John Dehlin This is the New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, Right, Right.

23:17 Margi Dehlin Yep. And then for sure, Broken Open by Elizabeth Lesser. And that's really. That was really profound, I think. Kind of moving into suffering, kind of moving into pain that you're feeling and kind of what lies. What are the good things that you can find there in that place? So that would be another one. And then Katrina Kennison, for sure. So she's the author of Gift of an Ordinary Day as well as Magical Journey, and she also has a blog as well. And I love her because I feel like you follow her in time as she struggles with loss. She's a close friend, Di, as she navigates her sons getting older and her sense of identity in the home. She worked, but was also, you know, had a life of really thoughtful mothering. And so it really follows her through those changes of her boys struggling in teen years and facing challenges. So I love her for her meaning and her intention and thoughtfulness. It was just a great comfort to kind of see another woman go through some transition work. Not particularly religious transition, but we know transitions hold things in common, so they touch a lot of those same things. So that was really beautiful. And then, yeah, I feel like those are the major ones for me.

24:53 John Dehlin Natasha, what are some of your favorite books around spirituality, secular spirituality and mental health?

24:59 Natasha Helfer Well, you both sent me Brave Enough as a gift one time, so that was nice. I've enjoyed reading through that.

25:07 John Dehlin I love Cheryl Strayed.

25:09 Margi Dehlin Beautiful.

25:11 Natasha Helfer And of course, I love Brene Brown's work. And I mean the title in of itself, the Gifts of Imperfection. Let go of who you think you're supposed to be and embrace who you are. I think fits the Mormon story quite well. Right. So I love all that. There's so many. I mean, there's so many good books in this kind of particular realm that it's hard to. I'll probably be sending you some more ones that I've really loved.

25:39 Margi Dehlin Did you include Braving the Wilderness by Brene Brown?

25:41 John Dehlin Yeah, it's right here. Braving the Wilderness.

25:43 Margi Dehlin Oh, Braving the Wilderness. Beautiful. Okay. Yeah.

25:45 John Dehlin And shout out to Noah Rasheta. He has a book, Secular Buddhism, but he followed it up with no Nonsense Buddhism for Beginners.

25:52 Margi Dehlin Yeah, I'm excited about that.

25:53 John Dehlin Clear answers to Burning questions about core Buddhist teachings. We love Noah and the work he does with Secular Buddhism. So we've Got to mention that as a book, as far as healthy marriages, we covered this before, but there are some really great books on healthy marriages. Natasha, I'm not sure we got your top books. I'm guessing that the Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by Gottman or the Gottmans would be on your list, is that right?

26:25 Natasha Helfer Absolutely. I usually start with the Gottman book as a good way to start with just really good framings and ways to think about what are we really. What makes a good marriage. There's so many myths about what makes a good marriage work, and they've really. John Gottman, in particular, has really done the research over decades to show that some of the things that we think is what it's all about isn't necessarily the case. And those seven principles, I think, are excellent, and I don't think they're just good for marriages. I often think about the seven principles when I think about my relationship with my kiddos, too.

27:05 John Dehlin Yeah, right. Yeah. There are a lot of principles in marriage that apply just to human relationships in general, but also to child rearing, etc.

27:15 Natasha Helfer Yeah. And the state of affairs is good. I mean, that's Esther Perel, so she's doing really great work and kind of the field of sexuality. She also has Mating with Captivity, which. Mating in Captivity, which is good. Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. I mean, there's like. There's a lot of good, just kind of foundational books that can really help you think past kind of some of the myths that we were told would, you know, what makes a good marriage. So differentiation stuff is not necessarily what we were told, which is more enmeshed stuff.

27:52 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah. And I'll just throw a couple in some of my favorites in addition to the Gottman book and Esther Perel, Margie and I really love Getting the Love youe Want by Harville Hendricks as a great workbook for going through how to identify your broken places, how to heal them, and how to build intimacy by talking that through. And we really love Alain de Bouton's the Course of Love.

28:18 Margi Dehlin Yeah, beautiful.

28:19 John Dehlin As just a book around intimacy, and

28:21 Margi Dehlin that's actually, interestingly enough, a fiction book, but really hits at some of the myths of kind of our culture around what it means to really connect and have intimacy with another human being. So,

28:41 John Dehlin yeah, so that's some of our books on marriage. Now, Natasha, you recommend a book on divorce. Talk about that.

28:48 Natasha Helfer Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, sometimes transitions mean that there are other transitions that come along. So we, of course, here at Gift of The Mormon Faith Crisis kind of take a stance that a faith transition shouldn't be the only reason why you have to face a divorce. There's lots of resources to help you. At the same time, sometimes as you transition, you start looking at the many reasons why you're still married and whether or not they've been sustainable or toxic or, you know, things of that nature. So sometimes divorce is something that happens as part of a transition period of time, including faith transition. So I really, really love the work of Constance Ahrens. She really pulls apart, again, many of the myths about divorce. We kind of see marriage is success and divorce is failure. She really pulls that apart. There can be horrific marriages that just make everybody miserable. There can be really good divorces where people are really respectful and keep a family, a sense of family and a respect. So she really does a great job of giving you strategies and ideas of how to, if you're going to go down that route, how to do it well, specifically if you have kids, which is what we're mostly concerned about in those scenarios.

30:09 Margi Dehlin I love that. That just really hits me where I live on some level, culturally. I wish for almost when a marriage ends, some type of honoring where people came together and said, you had an amazing nine years or whatever, and we honor that and we like, I wish we had a better cultural way.

30:29 Natasha Helfer I could not agree with that more. I mean, I wish we had divorce parties and celebrations and I want a divorce registry if I ever get divorced.

30:36 Margi Dehlin Yeah, right.

30:37 John Dehlin Yeah, right.

30:41 Margi Dehlin So much better in honoring.

30:42 Natasha Helfer It's like he's keeping the toaster and I need a new toaster. Okay, so true. Because it is. I mean, you've grown up together, you've learned together, you've often had children together, you've created assets together. I mean, so many things that you've done. And then to just blow it all away under this, like failed marriage narrative is really. It's pathetic and it's not true and it's really diminishing to people's lives.

31:11 Margi Dehlin So agree.

31:12 John Dehlin One comment from a listener. Ellen writes that the essay that I wrote with Brian Johnston called How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Crisis of Faith was a really important help for her understanding Middle Way Mormonism as she transitioned away from orthodox Mormonism. So she throws that in. So I went ahead and added that under the Mormon Faith Crisis section. Thanks so much to Ellen for that recommendation. That's an important one. And I wrote it. I guess that's kind of the closest I've come to writing a book. Huh. So far. All right, parenting. We've done. Have we done a full episode on Gift of Mormon Faith Crisis on parenting. Have we done that series yet?

31:54 Natasha Helfer Yes.

31:55 John Dehlin Well, then those who have listened know that we're huge Shefali Saberry fans. So, Margie, you want to list our favorite Shefali Savery books?

32:04 Margi Dehlin Sure. So. And one thing I like about Shefali Saverary, too, is the things she writes about also allow you to go back into your own childhood, too, and to kind of process some of those things that either you felt like maybe were missing or strengths, your, you know, parents growing up. But I love that, too, because there's a lot of healing work. And she often says that it's like growing the parent up. You're growing up yourselves. So a great place to start with Shefali, in my view, is probably the awakened Family. I think it's the closest blend of both practical, which comes at the end, and kind of philosophical, which she starts with the myths that we often have culturally, what a good child is. What a. And so it's a great way to have an introduction to her, if you like just practical. I feel like her second book might be a better place to start. That's out of control. Why disciplining your child won't work and what will? And then I love the conscious parent for that kind of. It's kind of a deeply rooted philosophical foundational book. Some people either really love it or you really. It confuses you. So. But that's Shefali. She's also great with all this. All this is true. Any author that we bring up or you can go ahead and look for videos or interviews or. And that is true for Shefali. She has amazing videos where people ask questions, where she goes into greater depth. And she's wonderful live as well, so love it.

33:44 John Dehlin And I think our listener, Mark Pugsley recommended Parenting beyond Belief is a book for parents who want. For parents who are worried about, you know, can I raise a kid without religion? Can I, you know, relay, can I raise a healthy, moral kid without superstition or theology or organized religion? That's a book that's been helpful. Anything else you want to add about parenting, Natasha?

34:12 Natasha Helfer No, I've been referring to out of control parenting forever. I really like that one, too.

34:20 John Dehlin We have a good list of books on sexuality, Natasha, and they're all recommended by you.

34:26 Natasha Helfer And I could have kept on going. These are just like, this is barely scratching the surface, but okay. So the first one is check your baggage, which I actually wrote. So it's really about just kind of understanding the messages that are getting in the way of your sex life that we all grew up with and what to do about them. I did include an article that I was part of a team of writing on sex addiction, important addiction and how those concepts fail our clients. And because in particular religious people are much more vulnerable to those kinds of ideas than others. For goodness sex I really like because Al Vernacchio talks about sexuality in a way that can still very much be value centric, which I think people want coming out of maybe more orthodox religions, but you know, still comprehensive and sex positive. Sex God and the conservative church is work by. Oh my goodness, what's her name? Tina Sellers. And she's up in Washington and has done a lot of work on purity culture and how so not necessarily Mormonism, but just Christian kind of denominations and a lot of the messaging that gets in the way of people's sexuality in that regard. Come as you are, I think is a good place to start. Lmgs.com I think is awesome to help you learn how to masturbate, especially if you're a woman. We never kind of got those kinds of messages.

35:55 John Dehlin Yeah, I looked at that. I'd never heard of that. But that's like understanding what your own anatomy and how it works. Is that right?

36:02 Natasha Helfer Yeah, it's like an awesome website where they actually like have instructional videos. And you know, so many women have a hard time understanding orgasm or how to orgasm, especially in a reliable way. So many of us have been taught from an early age, you know, that our husbands are supposed to awaken us or don't touch yourself or don't know yourself. And so we have a lot of issues with just being able to reliably, you know, reach orgasm in our culture. And this is a wonderful way that talks. I would just say if you're, if you're interested in having successful sexuality with a body that has a vagina or a vulva, you should be looking@omgs.com whether you're a woman or a man or yourself.

36:48 John Dehlin Yeah, thank you for gender and non gender inclusive language. That's important.

36:53 Natasha Helfer Yeah, it's really good. They just talk about all kinds of different. Like, you know, we always say, well, everybody's different, everybody's different. So you have to figure yourself out. But what they're finding is that there's like five to seven pretty reliable ways that if you know these strategies, you can really take your kind of pleasure to, you know, a very reliable way

37:15 John Dehlin of reaching orgasm is there A G spot. Natasha, yes or no?

37:19 Natasha Helfer There is a G spot, but it doesn't necessarily come with all the myths associated with it.

37:26 Margi Dehlin Mm.

37:27 John Dehlin I think that's a topic for another day.

37:29 Natasha Helfer Yes.

37:29 Margi Dehlin Can I bring up a book? And I'm just curious. One book that was really helpful for me with daughters and is Girls. I think it's Girls in Sex by Peggy Ornstein.

37:42 Natasha Helfer Yeah, I really. Yeah, I really liked that book too. She's not a therapist, she's a journalist and she went around the country and interviewed college aged women on sexual stuff. And I think she had a really good outlook. In fact, I think both. Both of my associations, AMFT and ASEC have had her as a presenting speaker on that book.

38:02 Margi Dehlin Oh, really? Yeah.

38:06 John Dehlin All right, well, lots of books to help you with sexuality. That's going to conclude our discussion of websites and books. If you as listeners have other recommendations of like must must consult books in a faith crisis, we want to hear about it. We'd love you to go to mormonfaithcrisis.com resources and just make a comment there. You can also email us@mormonfaithcrisismail.com as well. Marcy has a comment. She writes preach. Natasha. I can't believe how many former LDS women I have met that have never experienced an orgasm. It is so sad.

38:49 Natasha Helfer Yes, I would agree.

38:51 John Dehlin It is true.

38:52 Natasha Helfer Especially when we have such amazing potential for orgasm. We have, I think, triple the nerve endings you all have. Men.

39:00 John Dehlin Whoa, that's not fair.

39:02 Margi Dehlin Look at that sex positivity. I love that.

39:05 John Dehlin Wait a minute. Who's engineering this deal?

39:09 Natasha Helfer Well, I think you guys got the easier equipment end of the deal. And we just got the more in depth, harder to get to part of the deal, but definitely worthwhile when you get there.

39:24 John Dehlin All right, we'll have it. We'll do some additional discussion about this in the future episodes. We have a list of kind of must listen to podcasts. There are several Mormon themed podcasts. Natasha, what have been your favorite Mormon themed podcasts over the years that you like to recommend to people or that have been useful to you?

39:46 Natasha Helfer There's so many. But obviously you started us out of the gate with Mormon stories. I mean, this is the first one that I knew about. So that was. That's, I think, been an incredibly amazing, rich resource, you know, giving podcast. And what I always liked about it from the beginning, especially listening to them as a therapist, was that it felt fairly fair. Fairly fair what? Fairly fair on both sides of the equation.

40:16 Margi Dehlin I think that's depending on the era.

40:19 Natasha Helfer Yeah, Depending on the era. Well, I was listening to Mormon expressions at the same time, you know, that was very biased with John Larson, which is fine, you can have a biased podcast, but as far as what I would be referring people to. So I felt like I was able to refer people to some of your podcasts from a very early stage. I love, of course, you know, Thoughtful Faith with Gina Colvin. Dan Witherspoon's, you know, Mormon Matters Year of Polygamy was very significant with Lindsay Hansen park for me to listen to. I haven't gotten through the whole thing, but very significant. I run Mormon Mental Health, so of course I'm going to plug that.

41:01 John Dehlin That's a podcast for those of you who don't know.

41:04 Natasha Helfer Very helpful for people to be able to either share stories or have professionals come on and talk about things that most of us struggle with in one way or another, either personally with our families. So those are some of the things that I think about.

41:16 John Dehlin Margie, have you ever been into Mormon themed podcasting?

41:20 Margi Dehlin You know, that's a no, but I can say that Subject matter wise marriage on a tightrope. I just feel mixed. Faith marriage to have a podcast and knowing how witty and thoughtful they are, I'm just gonna plug that. Like, I just feel like that subject matter is just near and dear to me. And then I know for millennials, elf on the shelf, that audience to have kind of a targeted audience with regard to that. I think that's really, really. So those are my notables. But yes, my habits probably veer a little bit away from the subject matter.

42:00 John Dehlin As soon as Margie decided the church wasn't what it claims to be, she's like, I'm moving on. And she, she had no real intellectual interest in discussing progressive or post Mormonism or Mormon history. So that's. Is that true? Is that fair to say?

42:15 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

42:17 John Dehlin Bill Real's podcast Mormon Discussions has helped a lot of people. Radio Free Mormon is. I'm hearing great things about that. Another shout out for marriage on a tightrope. We just interviewed Katie and Alan for Mormon Stories this week. Great stuff. And of course, shout out to some of the YouTube channels like Brother Jake, Dan Vogel, thoughts on things and stuff along with Zelf on the Shelf. And you liked a podcast called Leading Saints, which I've never listened to, but that's one of those more faithful podcasts. Is that right, Natasha?

42:50 Natasha Helfer I don't know. Did I recommend.

42:54 John Dehlin You said one, but you said the podcast, was it David Osler?

42:58 Natasha Helfer Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that what it's called maybe Not.

43:02 John Dehlin Maybe I've got the wrong one here.

43:03 Natasha Helfer Yeah. David Osler is running a podcast, but I don't think that's the name of it, so I'll have to.

43:08 John Dehlin Okay, maybe I got the wrong one here.

43:11 Natasha Helfer Yeah. And he's, I think, trying to read. You know, he was a bishop and was really, I think, moved by a lot of LGBTQ issues as he served. And, you know, now he's more on the progressive side of things, nuanced and trying to reach, you know, believing audiences. I think he does a good job. And he just interviewed Janice Bangler on Faith Transitions.

43:33 Margi Dehlin Oh, that's right. Yeah, I remember seeing that. Yep.

43:37 John Dehlin Do you know what his podcast is called?

43:40 Natasha Helfer Okay, I'll have to look.

43:42 John Dehlin Is it Listen, Learn and Love?

43:43 Natasha Helfer Yes, yes, yes.

43:47 Margi Dehlin Okay, we got it. We'll add that or correct that, I guess you should say. And then Wanna Be Balanced is also doing, I feel like a podcast.

43:59 John Dehlin Yeah. Sean and Crystal Escobar.

44:01 Margi Dehlin Absolutely. As they're transitioning and as they're. It's very much in time. Right.

44:06 John Dehlin Yeah, we love. We always love Sean and Crystal Escobar and all they're trying to do with Mormon enlightenment and others. All right, let's see. There are other podcasts that have been really useful for progressive and post Mormons. I've already made a shout out to Noah Rashetta. His Secular Buddhism podcast is phenomenal.

44:29 Margi Dehlin Love it.

44:29 John Dehlin Oprah and Eckhart Tolle put together A New Earth, which is basically a discussion

44:33 Margi Dehlin of their book, so worth listening to, even if you've read the book.

44:37 John Dehlin I'm a huge fan of Sam Chef Sam Harris and his podcast Making Sense.

44:44 Margi Dehlin What do you like about it?

44:45 John Dehlin I just think Sam Harris just is really thoughtful and he tries to take a really intellectual approach to everything, but wise but balanced. And I just find him very grounded, covers interesting topics. Margie, what do you like about invisibilia?

45:03 Margi Dehlin I mentioned invisibilia just because I feel like it kind of goes into the psychology of behavior, of why we think and feel the way we do. And it just. It tends to be a great partner for, you know, a lot of what we're sifting through as we become more aware of the default settings in our brain through kind of being, you know, very connected to an organized religion. So it just goes. It works hand in hand, I think, with having you be aware of your own brain and why it works and why you have thoughts. I love it the way you do.

45:40 John Dehlin Any other. Any other podcasts you want to recommend, Natasha, that are more Maybe secular in nature, but relevant.

45:48 Natasha Helfer I should probably think about that. You know, I too, I think that when you're in something, you don't listen to it as much. Right. So I know there's a lot of great podcasts out there that I just don't tap into. So if I think of any, I'll let you know.

46:02 John Dehlin Okay.

46:04 Natasha Helfer Same goes with marriage and relationships. Like I should know that. I should know podcasts in that area. I'm really not thinking of any right now.

46:12 John Dehlin You're. You're kind of living that realm. Esther Perel has a good podcast called Where Should We Begin? Where she interviews couples about their relationships. Yeah, that's a really interesting one. And of course, on sexuality, there are at least two podcasts just so you don't have to self self proclaim. Mormon Sex Info is great. Which is a podcast dedicated to sexuality within a Mormon context. And then, Natasha, you've broken out and you've got a podcast called Sex Talk with Natasha. You also do some live streaming on

46:46 Natasha Helfer Facebook, but it's not really a podcast, it's more like a webinar. Yeah, but I do some stuff on Facebook Live. And, and one that I would add to this that I just thought of is Birds and the Bees podcast by Braxton Duxton.

47:03 John Dehlin Tell us about that.

47:05 Natasha Helfer It's more geared towards parenting and helping parents with their kids and sexuality in that regard. And he comes from Utah, so he's very culturally aware about Mormonism. I don't think it's directed necessarily towards Mormons, the Birds and the Bees podcast, but it's definitely towards people, parents who want resources and help teaching their kids from.

47:29 Margi Dehlin Oh, I'm going to check that out.

47:31 John Dehlin Natasha, is he post Mormon?

47:34 Natasha Helfer I'm not sure what, where he would say he is, but he's a therapist in Salt Lake City area.

47:42 Margi Dehlin This is something that comes up so often.

47:45 Natasha Helfer He's part of the Mormon Mental Health association and I supervised him to become a certified sex therapist. So he's doing great work out there. Salt Lake City.

47:55 John Dehlin All right, that's Birds and Bees podcast on.

47:59 Natasha Helfer And he just did an interview with me on masturbation. Yeah, not a lot of people want to talk about that. And I'll always talk.

48:07 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

48:10 John Dehlin Well, on our list@mormonfaithchrist.com resources, we have a list of must see movies that we think are great movies that parallel the faith crisis. And actually, I think watching a movie that's a really good metaphor for a faith crisis can actually be an intervention, can actually be therapeutic. So, you know, this list includes The Truman show, the Village, the Invention of Lying, Tangled, Smallfoot, Pleasantville, the Matrix, Moana, the Big Short, Spotlight, Margie, you A Boy Erased in there. That's a great movie. And of course, Wild Wild country and Going Clear are phenomenal books. And I know I made that list really fast, but you can go to the list to read it and to find those movies, but they're all great. Anything either of you want to say about that? Those lists?

49:00 Natasha Helfer Well, I think I would second your intervention thing, especially when you go into it thinking about your faith transition. You know, I mean, like I'm gonna purposefully, intentionally look at this movie with that kind of thought process in my mind.

49:14 John Dehlin Yeah. It becomes really therapeutic for many people.

49:18 Natasha Helfer Yeah.

49:19 John Dehlin All right, well, we're coming to the end of our list. We've got a few more things we wanted to mention. A huge one is Communities. We're going to be doing episodes on, or at least one big episode on Finding Community after a faith crisis. There are a couple huge things I'm just going to shout out here. Mormonspectrum.org map. You can find a global map of face to face communities all over the world or in person communities, even in Columbus, Ohio or London, England. If you're looking for an in person community, go to the Mormon Spectrum map. Women of a Certain Age is groundbreaking in terms of providing support for women Post Mormon women. Sunstone, of course, is a classic face to face community. The Utah Valley post Mormon community is notable because it's so large. Several thousand people are in it. We love Salt Lake City Oasis. We love affirmation for LGBTQ Mormons and post Mormons Mama Dragons. Any other in person communities you guys want to give shout outs to?

50:23 Natasha Helfer I think this is really good. I'm sure there are others, but Mormon Spectrum I think does a really good job of trying to be very inclusive. So. So if you have a group that Mormon Spectrums isn't aware of, make sure you contact them. Let them know that you're around.

50:43 John Dehlin Love it. In addition to Face to Face communities, of course there's some amazing online communities. Some of the top include the Ex Mormon Reddit, which is probably the biggest in existence now. The Mormon Stories podcast community on Facebook. It's probably the biggest Facebook Mormon themed community for progressive and post Mormons. And then we've got a lot of emerging ones like thoughtful transitions, Mormon Enlightenment Waters of Mormon for faithful. You know, Mormons trying to stay in the church used to be called a thoughtful faith. And then we've got for mixed faith marriages, both the Mormon mixed faith marriages group and the marriage on a tightrope group. And there are others, but those are some phenomenal online communities. Anything you guys want to add there?

51:32 Natasha Helfer No, those are the things I can think of.

51:35 John Dehlin Okay. There are lots of good coaches and therapists out there. Maybe for this episode we should just say that Natasha, Margie and I do our best to make ourselves available. And you can always check out the Mormon Mental Health association or Symmetry Solutions or the Utah LGBTQ Therapist Guild as networks for therapists. I think Encircle has a list of therapists that work with LGBT youth. Natasha, you care a lot about this. Anything else you want to say about therapists and coaches?

52:08 Natasha Helfer No, just. I mean, there's lots and lots of good people that are out there that we're not even aware of. So, of course, you know, my biggest push is to try to get people who do good work in faith transitions or understand the cultural competency issues that we need people to. We need people to be part of our membership at Mormon Mental Health Association. So if you know of a good therapist and you're seeing somebody that you really like, ask them if they're part of mmha. We'd love to send more people their way if they're doing a good job.

52:45 John Dehlin Excellent. Yeah. And I just want to give a plug for finding experts. I really do believe, and this isn't because I'm self interested in any way, because I'd be fine if I never coached another individual or couple again if there wasn't a need. But you would never go to a brain surgeon for a heart surgery. You'd never go, you know, to a urologist to be your ob gyn. And when you're dealing with a faith crisis, in particular a mixed faith marriage or LGBT issues, you want somebody who's really experienced, kind of an expert, and culturally competent. And that's why I'm so grateful that you guys exist. Natasha, Mormon therapist Margie. That's why I do the work I do. And that's why I'm so grateful that the Mormon Mental Health association and Symmetry Solutions exist. So please get an expert. It's almost always worth the money. I should add Liz Dalton on this list. She's a phenomenal coach, mediator for divorces. So I'm gonna add Liz Dahl on this list. She's really someone that Margie and I personally have used and have just found amazing things. One of her expertises is if couples are gonna get divorced, how to get divorced, in a way through mediation to avoid a lot of the expenses of divorce. And she's also.

54:05 Natasha Helfer You want to avoid the toxicity.

54:07 Margi Dehlin That's right.

54:08 John Dehlin Because it's not divorce that ruins children, it's parental conflict. And so Liz can help you, along with Natasha and others, can help you navigate your divorce in a way that minimizes the cost, minimizes the conflict, and maximizes the health for the children. So those are great resources. So shout out to Liz Dalton. We love you. We've got TED Talks up here, of course, Brene Brown stuff. And we've got some good TED Talks. We need to make our TED Talk list bigger.

54:40 Margi Dehlin We should add Esther Perel.

54:41 John Dehlin Oh, yeah, Esther Perel stuff. And the last. Oh, go ahead, Natasha.

54:46 Natasha Helfer No, I was just saying yes to Esther Perel's stuff. She's really interesting to make you kind of click differently about marriage.

54:52 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

54:54 John Dehlin And the last category we have are kind of is Music for a Faith Crisis. And we, of course have Mindy Gledhill's Rabbit Hole, Tyler Glenn's Excommunication album, Second Wind by Angela Soaf, and finally, Red Wing by Sarah Sample, who we love and who we've had on Mormon stories. We've had Angela, Soph, Sarah Sample, Mindy, and Tyler all on Mormon stories. And so many of you have songs and themes and anthems that are useful to you in your faith crisis. We should probably have our own page of songs for a faith crisis.

55:33 Margi Dehlin But we can make a Spotify playlist.

55:35 Natasha Helfer We should. That would be awesome. Plus, then we can use it for karaoke.

55:40 John Dehlin Yeah.

55:40 Margi Dehlin So true.

55:42 John Dehlin Absolutely.

55:43 Margi Dehlin Because it all comes back to.

55:45 Natasha Helfer It really does. Karaoke is true.

55:51 John Dehlin So this is our short but sincere attempt at providing you guys with resources for your faith crisis. We hope you appreciate it. Of course. Please go to our webpage, MormonFaithCrisis.com resources to tell us critical resources that you think we should have included. We would love that feedback and please share it with anyone you know. This list will provide you, literally with decades of therapy if you use it. People really do refer to books and podcasts and TED talks and communities and even music is therapeutic. So please take advantage. Natasha, anything you want to say to close?

56:35 Natasha Helfer No, Just help us make this list great. Give us feedback.

56:40 John Dehlin Tim Weber, Margie's brother, writes, always try to be someone else's community to the best of your ability. If you see them having a hard time, it's fine, I promise. All is right in the world. You just have to take off the glasses. That's a nice encouragement from Tim. Another way to say that is it gets better. Marcy writes, community was Number one for me. In fact, I always suggest someone going through a faith transition, find someone they know and trust that can help them navigate the process. There is such a learning curve. So, yes, thank you, Marcy, for that. Shout out. Margie, anything you want to say as we, as we end this episode?

57:16 Margi Dehlin I don't think so. Only that I, you know, with all this, it's testing out. You're going to just kind of listen or read or and see how you feel about it. And that is part of the glorious and oftentimes challenging process of rebuilding. And it can be a deeply empowering experience. So, you know, hold things loosely, try them on, no pressure, and hopefully as you go, you'll start, you know, rebuilding.

57:49 John Dehlin I love it. All right, well, we love you guys. Thanks for checking in. If you value these resources, please spread the word. Like us on Facebook, Give us a positive review on Facebook, positive review on itunes. Share, comment, email us and donate if you can at mormonfaithcrisis.com we have many more episodes in the works. Natasha, I'm going to put up here as a placeholder on this list. Fourth coming book by John Dehlin. John Dehlin, Natasha Helfer Parker and Margie Delyn. That's going to be a placeholder. That's right on our list.

58:40 Natasha Helfer Make us do it.

58:41 John Dehlin Yeah. Thanks for supporting us and know that we're going to be creating more content in the weeks and months and years ahead and that your support will make that possible. We also don't have workshops and retreats. I've got some workshops and retreats that I'm thinking about organizing. Well, of course there's thrive, but we've got some thrive things coming up. Natasha, I want to talk to you about some retreats and workshops coming up. And we want to continue that tradition of providing workshops and retreats for people in faith crisis.

59:11 Natasha Helfer So I think I have one scheduled for September in Oklahoma City. If people sign up, that's still.

59:20 John Dehlin Is that still on the books?

59:21 Natasha Helfer I think that's still on the books.

59:23 John Dehlin All right.

59:25 Natasha Helfer Oklahoma City, September 13th. But I need to have at least like 15 to 20 people to sign up to hold it. So if you're in the Midwest area, make sure you let us know you're wanting to come to that.

59:38 John Dehlin We have to update our list of events because it's a little bit outdated. All right, everyone, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. We really love your support and we look forward to lots of content in the weeks and months ahead. We couldn't do it without you. Margie, I love you. Thank you for joining us.

59:59 Margi Dehlin Why, thank you. Always lovely to see you, Natasha.

1:00:03 Natasha Helfer Very lovely to see you both, too. I love you both. Thank you, everybody, for all your ideas that you sent in, and hopefully we'll be hearing from you more.

1:00:12 John Dehlin All right, everybody, thank you so much. Take care. We'll talk to you guys soon.