Healthy Marriage

0:00 John Dehlin Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

0:36 Natasha Helfer Parker The Kindly light a myth Encircling Gloom.

0:46 John Dehlin Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin and I'm joined by my brilliant co host.

0:57 Margi Dehlin You flatter me, Margi Dehlin. Nice to see you everyone

1:02 John Dehlin and it is currently May 2, 2017 and we are really excited for today's topic. Today's topic is Healthy Marriage. We're going to do this as a two part series. This is part one of the series and we're really thrilled to have with us Natasha Helver Parker, who we'll introduce in just a second. But before we introduce Natasha, we as always have a few announcements before we begin. I want to welcome all those who are joining us through Facebook Live. We've got over 50 people and today we've got like five principles we want to cover, but we also want to do a lot of practical questions. So please start now posting any questions you have about healthy marriages and specifically within a religious transition context. And what we're going to do is we're going to do our best to weave them in. Lots of people have joined us. Shout out to Steve, shout out to Julie, Dana. Lots of cool people welcome everybody. Kimberly, of course, it's great to have you with us. So really quick, just a few announcements. Things are going well. Things are going great with the Open Stories Foundation. We had our best quarter ever in terms of downloads. Really happy about that. A huge part of that is having Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton helping us out. So your donations support our staff and operations and then that helps us do more episodes, release more content, hold more events and help more people. So things have gone great for the first quarter. I want to thank everyone for their help with that. Really quickly we have several really exciting events. We are going to be at Fort Collins, Colorado, May 4th through 5th. I think registration is closed on that, but we're really excited that we're full. We filled up all the seats and so we're thrilled about that. So all of you who are going to be joining us we're really excited to see you in just a few days. We're really excited to announce our retreat July 7th through 8th in Dallas, Texas. We hope that Houston, Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, Fort Worth, even Oklahoma City and any surrounding areas will join us for that retreat. It's going to be two days. We're trying to get Noah Rashetta from Secular Buddhism to join us. We haven't confirmed that yet, but I will be there. We're going to barbecue, we're going to have a lot of fun. We're going to do karaoke. It's going to be a blast. So that's coming up. August 11th and 12th, we're doing something new. We're doing a mixed faith marriage two day retreat. We've had mixed faith couples attend our retreats in the past and sometimes our retreats tend to skew towards people leaving the church, people who are really progressive post Mormons. And so when a mixed faith couple shows up and one of the members of the couple is a believer, that can be challenging. So especially they feel outnumbered. So it's always been rewarding. But we just thought it'd be really cool to try having a retreat where it's completely split. So I'm going to be there and then Julie d' Azevedo Hanks is, she's a believer. She attends church regularly and so that will be a split. And then we're going to have couples there where one sort of a believer, one isn't. And we think that's going to be fantastic event. So please, we'll have the registration information up very, very soon and we hope you'll schedule those events on your calendar if you're interested. August 11th and 12th, we also are going to be in Seattle September 14th and 15th and then October 20th through 22nd we'll be in Sydney, Australia. And then finally we're going to be in the San Francisco, Oakland area in November. So those are the events coming up. We hope you guys will join us. You can go to mormonstories.org events to check out the events calendar. So please consider and again within a week or so we should have all those registration forms up. So we are in for a great treat today. Natasha Helfer Parker has been with us for a long, long time. She's been a great asset to the Open Stories Foundation. She is the founder of not only the Mormon Mental Health association, which is a great resource for people who are looking for therapists who are competent in dealing with issues around Mormonism and faith, transition and sexuality, et cetera. That's a great resource. Check out Mormon Mental Health Association. You can just Google it. She's also the founder of Mormon Mental Health Podcast. Lot of great episodes there. We really encourage you to check that out. Lots of topics that are important. Natasha also has a lot of other things going on. So, Natasha, we want to welcome you back again to Mormon Stories. Thanks for joining us.

6:14 Natasha Helfer Parker Thanks for having me. I'm so glad to be back.

6:19 John Dehlin And a lot of people are already commenting saying, yay, Natasha, one of my favorite people, et cetera, et cetera. So we're glad you're here. Why don't you give us a little bit of an intro and just tell us a few of the things that you're involved with so people get a sense for who you are and what you do.

6:39 Natasha Helfer Parker Okay. I'm a marriage and family therapist by training. I've been practicing for over 20 years. I forget if it's 21 or 22 now, somewhere around there. And I run an online practice called Symmetry Solutions. And, and I also run a podcast called Mormon Sex Info. And let's see, about. I think it's about, about six or seven years ago now I realized I started the process of becoming a certified sex therapist because of so many of the issues that were coming my way. So I would say it was the Mormons who drove me to be a sex therapist. And I say that lovingly. Yeah. So. So yes, that's my training and my background and things I'm involved in. I have four kiddos, I'm married. I have a very loving and complicated relationship with our church. And that's like probably most of us. Yeah.

7:36 John Dehlin And we've co led retreats and workshops before and we've had some scheduling concerns this summer. You are doing some events this summer, is that right?

7:48 Natasha Helfer Parker I believe I'm doing a retreat with Dan Witherspoon July 14th through 16th, if I can remember correctly. I don't have a calendar in front of me, so that will be through the Open Stories foundation as well and through Mormon Matters, his podcast. Right. And that's kind of about nuancing faith transitions and things for people who maybe want to stay involved with the church but struggling to know how to do so in a way that's, you know, self authentic and relationally authentic with their important people in their lives. So I'll be doing that this summer. And yeah, no, I love going with you, John, wherever, whenever we present together. That's always a lot of fun too.

8:33 John Dehlin All right, well, it's great to have you back. Thanks for joining Us. Okay, so for today, we have kind of five topics that we're going to cover, and we'll just kind of hit them one by one. Maybe Margi and I will take turns kind of setting up the topic, and then Natasha will have you talk about each topic. And then what we want to do is again, invite listeners to post questions or situations. And if you're not comfortable sharing it on Facebook, we want to encourage you to just email your question or situation to mormonstoriesmail.com and we'll monitor that email, and then we can go ahead and ask. We'll make sure to guard your anonymity if you send that in through email or even if you. If you make the comment on Facebook, we won't mention your last name, we'll just mention your first name. But we do want to. We do want this to be collaborative. So please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have a question or comment. And we won't use any identifying information if you don't want us to. So that's the introduction. And so, Natasha, you've put five sort of pillars for this part. One of our conversation of healthy marriage. And the first pillar that you have is differentiation. And so if it's okay, why don't we start with that topic and then after you kind of set it up, maybe we'll talk about it in the context of a religious transition. Talk about some of the normal ways that that issue appears within a religious transition, and then we'll go to the next topic. Does that sound all right?

10:21 Margi Dehlin Sure.

10:22 John Dehlin Okay, so talk to us about differentiation.

10:25 Natasha Helfer Parker Okay, well, and first of all, it's not easy to come up with topics when you're talking about something like marriage anyway, because there's like 500 different directions we can go. So by no means is anything that we're going to be talking about today all inclusive, that it should fit everybody's experience necessarily. But hopefully these are just some guidelines. Differentiation, though, is one I like to start with because it tends to be an umbrella for most other topics. So it's just a good place to start. And the basic idea behind differentiation, although you can spend really semesters and all kinds of time studying this more in depth, the basic idea is how do we stay connected in a system where while also being able to respect difference and be able to tolerate our anxiety and our responses emotionally to how people are different from us, we tend to. Oh, shoot, that's my dog. I'm sorry. Okay. That's my lovely little dog who thinks he protects us. From all things evil. And he's tiny. Anyway, Anyway, so he.

11:35 Margi Dehlin So this,

11:38 Natasha Helfer Parker you know, as humans, we tend to gravitate towards those who are similar to us. We have lots of tribal type of instincts. And there's good reason for that because, you know, we need to survive. And in order to survive, we tend to do that better with people who are from our same culture, from our same religion, or from our same race, or from our same socioeconomic class. I mean, you go back throughout the history of time and people have been organizing each other into groups. And it's. Once you're in that group, it's really important to your survival. However, there's of course going to be difference in each individual within any given group. So different. Every system, every group has kind of like a spectrum of differentiation that they've been able to achieve. And usually I give the example of, you know, to tease my own ancestry. It's like May Joseph Smith had an Italian gene somewhere in there. Because a lot of differentiation issues we tend to have in Mormonism remind me of my Italian family. Like, if you go against grandma, you know, it's all meaningful. And now you're disloyal and uncommitted and you're banished from Sunday dinner. You know, so these are some of the traits of what we call an enmeshed system. It's hard to toler difference and difference is seen as threatening to the system. And so the we is more prioritized than the me. Then there's other systems where sometimes the me is too prioritized. Right. And so there isn't enough congeniality or congruence within the system. And now people in those kinds of systems can feel very isolated or don't form healthy attachment type skills, things of that nature. And so that's where the mechanism prioritized over the we. So healthy differentiated systems are somewhere in the middle. You know, where there is a congruency, there is a sense of we, and we are a family or we are a couple, or we even work settings and church settings. I mean, every system has this type of spectrum that you can kind of analyze. And a really great place, if people want to just Google it, is the Circumplex model. That's a really nice graph of understanding kind of some of the dynamics in each quadrant of the graph that I'm trying to visually promote here. Without any visuals. Yes,

14:07 John Dehlin you can share visuals.

14:10 Natasha Helfer Parker I have no, like visuals prepared.

14:12 John Dehlin Oh, no, it's okay. No, we're good. I think we're good. Okay. So the tension between me and we. And I really like that you brought in attachment, because I've been learning more about attachment theory, and there's sort of a healthy, secure attachment, but then for insecure attachment, there's. There's sort of anxious and there's avoidant and. And yeah, sometimes we can be so fearful, bad things happen to us in the past that we just are kind of unattached and. And don't really form those bonds. We kind of just do our own thing. Let me just ask you, as you've counseled with a lot of people in a faith transition, let's just say it's a mixed faith marriage to start with. How does this tension of differentiation really start emerging in some of the examples that you've seen with your own clients?

15:10 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, given that I believe Mormonism in general tends to be enmeshed or connected space system, it starts right away. I mean, it's very threatening. And when you think about. So this is probably not one of the points I made, but another point I'd like to make is when I think about the four intimacies I often talk to couples about, I talk about, okay, so how good are you at your emotional intimacy? How good are you at your intellectual intimacy and home shared interests and ability to have interesting conversations together? How good are you at your physical intimacy, which of course includes your sexuality, but other aspects such as affection and things of that nature. And then how good are you at your spiritual intimacy? What I mean by that is shared morals, ethics, sometimes religion, beliefs, you know, things around kind of how the world works or how it should work. So if you think about it, I

16:07 John Dehlin got emotional, physical, spiritual. What's the fourth?

16:10 Natasha Helfer Parker Intellectual.

16:11 John Dehlin Okay, got it.

16:12 Margi Dehlin Right.

16:13 Natasha Helfer Parker So when you think about how Mormonism is set up from our young men, young women's, you know, days, we're very focused on this idea of marrying within the faith. Right. So most of us will get that message that you should marry within the faith, whether it's a returned missionary or a worthy member or something along those lines, and definitely marry in the temple, right? Like, that's the culmination of the best choice possible, which requires a member of the faith. And so, so much of, I think our expectations about what marriage is going to look like and the struggles you might have in marriage and just how you project your lifestyle together is very much based on that initial contract of marrying within this construct. And so when one or both are moving away from that construct, that column, you know, I talk about these kind of being columns that hold up your foundation that column that for many Mormons was like, number one kind of comes crashing down, and they either forget that they have three other good columns, or those other three columns may have been struggling as well. And now all of a sudden, you're looking at this foundation and kind of the structure of your relationship from a very different lens. And for many people, even when their other three columns are very good and they actually have a strong relationship with this one column crashing down can really almost feel like it's defining the entire relationship. And with good reason. You know, I don't think that we've been given skills really, as Mormons to know how to manage faith transitions. We don't really make room for that. We don't make room for that as a legitimate choice within our culture. And so there's going to be a lot of fears attributed to that that we've heard throughout the years, whether it's the slippery slope or not having the priesthood in your home or not being able to have certain blessings or protections. You know, the many ways that we've been told that we should be afraid of somebody leaving or ourselves leaving or whomever in the system.

18:24 John Dehlin So go ahead.

18:25 Margi Dehlin I was just gonna say it's it even before young women's or even in our own, like, sort of nuclear families, before wherever we ever reached sort of teen. I think even there, we can often feel that sameness. Right. Stay in line in the family. What is allowed, what's not allowed, as far as sort of family culture, but also sort of the religious context as well. And so I guess one question I have for you, because it feels like something that's actually quite unnatural to have this sameness as a goal like that. You're going to be the same and the same throughout time.

19:06 Natasha Helfer Parker Even.

19:07 Margi Dehlin So you're going to grow, I guess if you grow, you're going to grow really similarly and see things from. What would healthy differentiation then look like within a couple.

19:18 Natasha Helfer Parker Sure. And yeah. So we would have that ability to. Well, I guess first of all, I want to just normalize that. Sameness is something we all like. It's something that first attracts us to people. People was like opposites attract. I'm like, that's really a myth. You tend to marry somebody who's a similar IQ than you. You tend to marry somebody even within your own race or culture or socioeconomic status. It's very rare that people vary from those kinds of things because otherwise it'd be too much opposite to make you even comfortable with a certain person. This is true even of our Friendships, you know, if you think about people that you really just don't mesh with and people that you do. And so it's normal to be attracted to what's the same. And we confuse that with intimacy, you know, like, oh, well, do you like pizza? I do. Are you from Idaho? Me too. Are you Mormon? Me too. It's like we're meant to be, you know, we're soulmates. It's wonderful. We're the same,

20:18 John Dehlin Idaho and Mormon.

20:19 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah. I don't know. That's it.

20:23 Margi Dehlin It's so true though. It is so true. I think in that moment what you're feeling is, I'm not alone.

20:30 Natasha Helfer Parker Look, you get me. You get me like nobody else gets me, right? And our romantic kind of westernized notions of true love support this. Whether it's romantic comedies you watch or Cinderella movies or it's this idea of finding your true love. And I know that there have been unfortunately, even in Mormonism, comments about, you know, that that pre existence kind of mythology of there's that one and only that you're supposed to meet. And there have been actually leaders who have counter countered that type of thinking. So that's good too. But anyway, so we have this notion that sameness is intimacy and that is oftentimes what we most connect with is our sameness. But of course, as you spend time with somebody and hormones wear off and you know, you start spending two, five, ten years with somebody, it's oftentimes the differ it start, you know, grabbing our attention or things that we noticed that were different but were likable when we first met are now not likable. So in other words, oh, he was so responsible and always on the ball and now he's like super controlling, right? Or she's so spontaneous and free loving and now she's like chaotic and unorganized, right? And so same traits, but having to live with those traits for a long period of time. You recognize the shortfalls of some of these personality quirks that we all have. So yeah, so sameness is normal to want. But well differentiated systems are in a sense a move towards emotional maturity, emotional intelligence, emotional regulation that in a way we all, since the age of two, have been slowly getting better at depending on which systems you come from. Probably the better or worse you are at that, given the skills that you watched your parents maybe have in their relationships or grandparents even, or other important people in your lives, including your culture. So a well differentiated system, for example, it's not that you don't have feelings, it's not that you'd be like, oh, you're going through a faith transition and you're going to change every aspect of our life together that we've built. How wonderful for you. I'm so happy. And I have zero negative feelings about that. That's not, that's not. I mean, unless you legitimately feel that way. That's not differentiation. That's selling yourself completely short, just trying to support another person. But it's more about being able to be present and difficult conversations, like, well, that's kind of scary to me, or that's hurtful, or I don't totally understand where you're coming from. And I love you and I'm committed to you and I think we can work this out. And I'm willing to engage and have lots of conversations and not, you know, give ultimatums that are really dramatic or make meanings that are inappropriate around some, some of those situations. So those are maybe a few examples.

23:47 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of two situations that are prominent. One is a mixed faith example. You alluded to this, Natasha, where you really married. I mean, yeah, you had the pizza and the Idaho and the sexual attraction in common, right? Maybe, maybe.

24:12 Natasha Helfer Parker But we don't prioritize sexual attraction as one of the reasons we marry people in our culture. That's a tangent.

24:19 John Dehlin I did. I sure did.

24:24 Margi Dehlin That's so true though, brother.

24:30 John Dehlin But, no, but, okay, so. Yes, but really, for many Mormons, it's the gospel that is the underlying contract. Right? Yeah, about this. And so when, when somebody, when somebody changes in a mixed faith context, for example, when somebody changes their commitment to the gospel, that's not as trivial as pizza, that's not as trivial as TV show preference, or even whether you exercise or not, that's. That's catastrophic potentially for the believer. And then in the context of both losing their faith, that can sort of be this time of discovery where maybe one decides they want to travel all the time or they want an open marriage and the other decides, I'm in a monogamy and I don't want to travel all the time. And all of a sudden it's not just, again, about pizza and smaller stuff, it's like all of a sudden going in completely opposite directions. And so the question is, like, what happens, Natasha, when the chasm becomes huge?

25:46 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, that's definitely legitimate. And I mean, I believe that marriages are in constant negotiation no matter what. I mean, whether you're going through a faith transition or not. And at times, yes, as you reevaluate and shift and change. There are plenty of people who do separate for what they feel are very legitimate reasons. And legitimate reasons you jump straight to separation. Well, I'm just saying that's a legitimate choice because I think that's what you're saying as far as chasms that, you know, if somebody want, I mean, there are hard lines, you know, and I think every relationship has them, whether we like to think about it that way or not.

26:27 John Dehlin So talk about before separation and a couple's right in that heat of major differences, how do they start to navigate that?

26:39 Natasha Helfer Parker So I think that before going to that step, I think it's important to slow things down, you know, recalibrate. I'm, you know, just your. The way you talked about a faith transition in general, I often tell anybody who works with me around faith transitions, like faith transitions are brutal. They're brutal, especially coming from a system such as ours. Now, if your faith transitioning from Unitarianism may be slightly less brutal, right? But regardless, the more orthodox of a religion you come from, the more brutal it is because the more markers there are, the more lifestyle changes. It's not just about belief. It is now how you're going to, you know, what you're going to wear that day, what you're going to eat that day, what you're going to do that day, how you're going to teach your children. So for a lot of people who maybe didn't grow up in traditional religious homes, you know, they can be a little bit dismissive, like, well, what's the big deal? You're just changing some of your beliefs. You know, like, everybody does that. You know, why is this such a crisis for you? But the more orthodox of a home and culture and religion you come from, the harder this is going to be. And I believe in Mormonism, it's quite difficult. So this is what I call brutal. And so I highly recommend for people not to make any lifelong altering decisions for a good, you know, like year after a faith transition, like divorce, like starting a polyamorous marriage, even if you're both on board, like writing a dissertation type letter that outs yourself to everybody in your community, like, you know, so just kind of like just big major changes and moving careers or, you know, or even completely stopping your attendance with church, you know, especially if you have kids who are still involved. I mean, just like, let's say slow the process down. And I'm not trying to shame anybody or even like, yeah, even resigning.

28:50 John Dehlin For some, resigning may be okay, but for others, it may be so abrupt and Extreme. It's like crossing a Rubicon when you might benefit from more flexibility. And again, I'm not against resigning at all. It sounds like that might.

29:03 Natasha Helfer Parker I'm not against any of these things. Yeah, I'm not against any of these things. I think they're all legitimate changes choices, and they're all things that over time we may really get to a point where that's actually a really healthy decision. To resign or to divorce or to write a letter. Exactly. But to do that in the midst of severe emotional pain and impact, and especially if in a marriage you're really struggling can, you know, it can just take people down roads that they're not prepared fully to go and unfortunately cause a lot of regrets down the road as well.

29:43 John Dehlin So take it slow. Don't make big decisions. What were you gonna say, sweetie?

29:46 Margi Dehlin Oh, I was just. I was gonna ask her a question, but in the end she ended up. She answered it. About going slowly is the idea that you actually give yourself time, process appropriately to yourself.

29:59 Natasha Helfer Parker Yes.

30:00 Margi Dehlin And your surroundings and to kind of rebuild to a level that you can really feel like you have a read on the situation around maybe values or something to guide you forth versus, you know, acting, like you said, in emotional duress and pain. Sure.

30:15 Natasha Helfer Parker And, you know, understanding that. And I think this is one of my points. I'm probably jumping all over the place, but understanding that the grief cycle is such a huge part of this process and that the grief cycle involves emotions such as anger and depression. And it's very painful. And those emotions are legitimate. Like they should be there. You should be experiencing those things. They're just not the best times to be making life altering decisions. They're good informants. You know, depression is a good informant, anger is a good informant. They clue you into certain things or changes that you may want to make. But we want to shy away from, I guess, impulsive decisions or decisions that are based fully out of a sense of betrayal or anger only.

31:02 John Dehlin Right. So important, really quickly, Jeralee Renshaw writes, going slowly is such vital advice. So we've got a thumbs up from Jerily. That's always good. Jaina writes, I love Tuesdays with Margi. So we're getting nice comments from our listeners just before we kind of move on to the next. I just want to talk really quickly about differentiation 1. I like your idea of going slowly. Something that I really emphasize with my coaching clients is something I call a values inventory. It is. So let's say you are in a mixed faith marriage where one's totally Believing and one's not. Or, but let's say that you totally have had. You've been out of the church a year or two, you've each been on this massive self discovery and your differences are becoming more and more prevalent. I could say one wants to drink alcohol and one doesn't, or one wants to smoke weed and one doesn't. Or one, you know, wants, you know, who knows, to move somewhere and one doesn't. Or one wants to go to a different church and one doesn't either scenario. I recommend what's called a values inventory. And a values inventory, I'll just say really briefly, we've sort of perverted the idea of values within religion and within Mormonism. When I grew up, values meant, oh, I don't smoke, that's my value. Or oh, I don't have premarital sex. So those are values, right? I don't watch our movies or drink alcohol. That's not what I mean by values. What I mean by values is what do you value in your life? Maybe you value health, physical health and fitness. Maybe you value being very social with friends. Maybe you value being more introverted and reading and lots of quiet at home. Maybe you value, you know, raising healthy kids. Maybe you value your work and just being a workaholic. Who knows? There are lots of things you can value. And what I found is for both mixed faith couples and couples who have left, if you can take the religious vocabulary out of it, right, and just focus on values, what you might find is that even when you feel like there's a massive discrepancy between, between you, you may find that once you take the religious language or some of the other language out of it, you have more in common that you thought. So maybe honesty, whether or not you're in the church, maybe you still both value honesty. Maybe you still both value emotional intimacy. Maybe you both still value a healthy, intact family, maybe you both still value raising healthy kids, maybe you both love going to concerts, whatever it is that you value, I recommend a values inventory and seeing how much you really do share. And sometimes that values inventory can really be informative because if one of you values monogamy, and that's a core value, and then another one values like sexual liberation, there's a chance that that, that tells you all you need to know about whether or not you should stay together. Now, I'm not saying that has to be definitive, but sometimes there are values. And if somebody, if a believer just flat out says, I want a righteous priesthood holder as my partner who's active in the church, and he'll take me to the temple once a week. And that's what I value. And they can't abstracted a little bit from just being a moral, healthy, honest, committed partner who believes in honesty and kindness and charity. If somebody just lays down the law and says, nope, this is what I want, that can be very clarifying. So sometimes the value exercise can show you you have more in common than you thought. And then sometimes it can really show you these differences are possibly irreconcilable. What were you gonna say, Margi? And then Natasha wanted to.

35:20 Margi Dehlin I was just gonna say, I think in that with the differentiation model, it works so wonderfully well. Because what possibly can happen is this idea that you're feeling a disconnect or all these differences sort of pile up in life. But when you sit down, it's possible to do a values inventory and realize, oh, in actuality, you know, we look like we're on really different pages, but our values are actually really similar. And so it allows you to actually accept. Okay, in life lived, it may look different, you know, depending on who we're dealing with, which spouse. But at the center, you're actually very much in line, values wise. And so. And I love that with a part of differentiation, it doesn't have to look the same, it's not worn the same, it's not shown the same same. But it still can be something that grounds you both as a couple.

36:12 John Dehlin Yeah. So, like, if we have spirituality as a value for you, spirituality could be going to church. For me, spirituality could be walking in nature.

36:21 Natasha Helfer Parker But we're both supportive of that.

36:22 John Dehlin We're both anchored in this value of spirituality. It doesn't have to be that big of a deal.

36:27 Margi Dehlin Right.

36:27 John Dehlin And I would just say for the healthiest marriages I've seen, I'll see a believer say, look, my husband's still a good husband. He's still a good father. He still is honest, and he's still committed to our relationship. I'm not gonna leave him over that. There are all sorts of losers I could find who are active in the church, but that aren't gonna be loyal, faithful, loving, kind, committed people. And they're able to say, yeah, the church works for me, it's not working for my partner, but we share the same values, and I'm not getting rid of this amazing relationship. Okay, Natasha, we've been talking for a bit.

37:02 Margi Dehlin Yes.

37:02 John Dehlin Let's say we didn't have other panelists. Cause we, we knew we had things to say in this Episode, too. So this is a conversation.

37:10 Natasha Helfer Parker I love it. I love it. No, and I'm totally on board. I mean, you've heard me present on this. I have the picture, you know, the red tulip and the yellow tuliped field. Right. And that, of course, your attention is drawn to the red because that's what pops. And you forget all of the yellow that you have in common because you're so focused on that red. And it's something I do with all of my clients as well, even not just my mixed faith, but my ones who are going through faith transitions together. Because I think one of the tasks of a healthy faith transition is to reevaluate your values and your beliefs and your morals and not just take for granted that we kind of know what that means, because in Mormonism, we kind of have that given to us in a package. And, you know, if you agree with it, you kind of take the whole, whole package. But I think another thing that's interesting in that is that you oftentimes have conflicting values. So. And this is where it gets complicated, because you may have the value that you want, a priesthood holder in your home, and you may also have the value that, you know, of marital vows and that, you know, no matter what we face together in life, I value that idea that I'm going to kind of stick with you. So now you have a competing value. And that's oftentimes where things get messy for people. Usually when we're very clear about something, that's not what people are coming to therapy about. Right. It's clear. It's obvious. It's now I have two or three or four or five conflicting values or ideas or beliefs that I need help kind of sifting through and figuring out. And that's where compromise comes in and decide. Differentiation skills come in. And. But I do that exercise, too. I think I maybe do it a little bit differently. I do include people's beliefs, so I just ask them to write down individually of each other all their different beliefs so they can be Mormon stuff. Like, I believe in the restoration of the gospel. You know, I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. It can be what I call more generic Christian stuff that Mormonism doesn't own, like charity or honesty, your patience, you know, the virtues. It's not even just Christians that believe in a lot of those things, obviously. Right.

39:26 Margi Dehlin So.

39:26 Natasha Helfer Parker And then I believe, you know, and then secular things like I believe in education, or I believe in the importance of recycling, you know, or things of that nature. And so then you come together and you look at these, you know, huge lists that people come up with and they're really fascinating. And then you're like, okay, well where are the stark differences? You know, if there are differences like you believe in God and I no longer believe in God, you know, or something like that, where are the things that we could find common denominators on? So for example, a lot of people will say, well, I believe in the word of wisdom, which usually translates to some type of healthy bodily type of idea. And the non member might say something like, I believe in health, I believe in having a healthy body. So that might differ somewhat, like maybe in coffee or beer. But there is still a common denominator. We both believe health is a important and responsibility is important how we take care of our body. So we have something to work with there. And then you have like a majority of stuff usually. I've never had a list that's come back without the majority being in common. Things like work ethic and education and being committed loving partners and being good parents and things that most of humanity, unless you're kind of married to a sociopath or something like that, are going to agree that are important values. And so now we have a huge foundation for being able to, for example, parent your children or to see similarities in each other instead of only wedges between each other. Like for example, even your example, spirituality. You could have a beautiful family home evening on spirituality where mom gets to say this is how spirituality works for me. And dad gets to to say this is how spirituality works for me. And then you invite the children and now all of a sudden you've got a really rich discussion and dialogue that I think all families could benefit from. Whether you're doing that in a Mormon traditional home or a mixed faith home or a non faith home.

41:28 John Dehlin Right. Let me bring in just a few comments and questions from our listeners. I love that they're having a healthy, robust discussion in the, in the conversation, Jeralee asks, can morality, meaning not having premarital sex, be a value? And I would say yeah, sort of. So yes, I mean, people get to define their values. Jerlee, what I mean by that is maybe, you know, maybe your value is chastity, maybe it's self respect or. What I'm saying is I don't like to think of values as something you're not doing. My value is I don't drink caffeine. My value is value is sort of the positive affirming thing that you represent. Nobody's going to put on their tombstone you know, didn't have premarital sex. Right. And so. And so I don't like to think of that as the value. It's not as motivating, it's not as full, it's not as rich. But if your value is sort of like, you know, self respect or self control or self worth, and for you, that means not letting just any old person have any part of you that they want, anytime they want. But instead it's being really thoughtful and careful about the relationships you develop and at what point you enter into sexual intimacy. For me, that's a richer, more motivating sort of a guide or direction than like, the value of not doing X or Y. I hope that makes sense, Jer Lee. But of course, if somebody has chastity as a value, that's perfectly reasonable. Sherry writes, according about values. This is what we told our kids when we realized they were. When they realized we were out. We still have the same values. Family, family, family. Nothing was changing there. We were family. We loved each other and them. We were still together forever, just without the religious language. So Sherry's offering us how to use values within a family context with the kids. And I think that's really powerful, which I love. Yeah. Thank you, Sherry. Julie writes, we did this when focusing on what to do with Sundays. We wanted it to be relaxing for everyone and calming, the opposite of what church attendance was for us. We picked what values we wanted to focus on and started there. Charity was our first value, and it was a great start to give back to each other and our community. And I really like that idea of families picking values and then just sort of experimenting on the different values as sort of a way to replace, if they don't go to church on Sunday, a Sabbath, secular Sabbath like experience.

44:20 Margi Dehlin Yeah. And really bringing your children into that discussion of what would an ideal Sabbath look like for you, what would it feel like? What would you want to do? And then trying to integrate into sort of a values thing where everyone feels represented. It's a great, great idea.

44:37 John Dehlin Yeah. Okay. All right. So again, lots of good discussion.

44:43 Natasha Helfer Parker Can I some of that? So I think it's important I agree with your ideas of values, and I think it's okay to have beliefs, you know, which is maybe how I would posit that idea of not having premarital sex. So it's my belief that, you know, in order to achieve my value of chastity or sexual health or whatever, however you want to posit that, that one of the ways I can do that is to not have premarital sex, if that's part of my value system. So it's. So it can be part of that idea versus. And then I just have to, you know, because I just love to pick on sex stuff, but I just have to challenge, like, if you do have more than one marital partner prior to sex, it's not that you're just giving away your body too much or even if you're. Or even if you're having a casual encounter or anything like that. And I know you didn't mean to imply that, but I'm just wanting to say that it's important that we not project our own values or beliefs onto other people's experiences.

45:45 Margi Dehlin Right.

45:45 Natasha Helfer Parker So that should be a value of all of ours.

45:48 John Dehlin Yeah. And someone may say I want to be sexually experienced so that I can bring that into a marriage in a way to where we have the best foundation to start with. And so by having experiences that are safe and healthy, you can then bring a richer set of tools or opportunities or fun into your marriage. Right. I mean, that can be a value too, right?

46:12 Natasha Helfer Parker Yep.

46:12 John Dehlin Yeah. I love it. Okay. Somebody asked, Charles asked, are there values inventory tools or templates we can refer them to? Yes, but I couldn't find them. Doing a quick search. The values literature comes out of the Acceptance Commitment Therapy paradigm. So, Charles, try Googling Acceptance Commitment Therapy and Values Worksheet or Values Inventory. See what you'll find. If you find anything, paste it in a comment here. I'll also try and do a search afterwards. But that's a great question, Charles. Okay. And Laura, like that you added that thing at the end about chastity and me too. So did we.

46:52 Margi Dehlin I think it's super important.

46:53 John Dehlin So thanks, Laura, for that confirmation. Okay, Natasha, we've had a listener with a question for a long time. I've been waiting to answer because it really fits in your second point, which is respect and friendship. So let's have you talk about respect and friendship. And then I want to go back to a question that was asked at the very beginning of the episode.

47:12 Natasha Helfer Parker Okay. So a lot of the. Well, most of my couples, I will refer them to the book, to John Gottman's book, Seven Princes for Making Marriage Work.

47:24 John Dehlin Oh, look, we have it right here. Did they get to see it? Here, I'll show it. Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John.

47:35 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah, this is a phenomenal book. And it really coalesces all of the work that he's done. He's been doing research for years and years and years on couples that go to the Love Lab and see Seattle. And they actually live in a little apartment for a few days. And he hooks them up to all kinds of ways that measure their heart rate and things of that nature. So it's really great research. And he's done a phenomenal job of pinpointing certain types of communication styles or patterns that he claims he can, with 90% accuracy, say, lead to divorce. And so things like, you know, criticism versus complaints or defensive postures that, you know, again, are very instinctual, which is hard for us to stop these things because when we're in the defensive posture, immediately all of our things get triggered as far as going to a fight flight response system. And those things we know happen in nanoseconds. And so it's very difficult to shift some of these around, but not impossible with practice. People get actually really good at shifting some of these negative ways that we relate to one another and with self awareness, which is all part of what we do in marital therapy. So those are really good things. And what he has really come to write a lot about that I agree with is this underlying idea of friendship and respect, which is really at the basic principle of any religion. Or, you know, it's kind of this idea of, can I treat you like I would want to be treated? Can I. Can I think about you the way I would want to be thought of? Can I respect your experience and your journey in the same way I would want my journey and experience to be respected? And oftentimes I find that couples are in such places of pain that when we're in pain, if you think about a wounded animal, what are they doing? They're licking their wounds in the corner, and they're even like lashing out at people who are trying to help them, right? Because pain is such a. Such an insular place. And so it's like, well, I'm in pain. No, I'm in pain. No, I'm in pain, right? And so it's like instead of really learning how to talk to one another and commune with one another and even give space to one another so that those defensivenesses can come down to a point where you can really validate each other's pain and talk about desires and wants and needs and all those things, things without it being so polarizing, right, to either person. And this requires things like we've talked about differentiation, skills and telling, you know, emotional intelligence. Some of these things are just hard to come by. And it has nothing to do with how intelligent you are. I think I'm kind of Smart. And quite frankly, I've sucked at these things for most of my life. You know, so I come from Italian heritage. I'm super, you know, feisty and can get very upset very easily. And so it's not anything to do about you being stupid. It's just more about, you know, back in the day when you had to run away from a tiger or a bear or a tribe that was trying to kill you, you needed the blood in your hands and your feet, and you ran like hell. You know, now more often than not, we need the blood in our brain, and that's just not where it's at. So our IQ actually lowers when we're in conflict. Actually stupider. So this is hard stuff. And of course, all couples struggle, especially with something as difficult as a faith transition, which can feel extremely threatening as far as to know how to deal with it.

51:18 Margi Dehlin Yeah, so true. And I think the trick there, too is oftentimes when you get in those situations of great conflict, there's going to be like a surface thing you're actually talking about, but very often there's something much deeper that's being deeply affected or triggered that the person may or may not be aware of. Right. But also dealing with things at hand, but also trying to get this understanding for what is really going on, deeper level that's causing this level of emotional pain.

51:49 Natasha Helfer Parker Which is why you can have a huge argument about somebody not following the grocery list correctly when really it's about me not feeling heard or validated by you. You know, once again, you didn't listen to my needs. You know, but you're talking about asparagus versus green beans, and everybody's confused. Exactly, Exactly.

52:10 John Dehlin So, Natasha, we had a. We had a question come up right at the beginning of the show that I think got deleted, maybe because it took me too long to ask it, but I'm going to try my best to restate what the question was. He basically wrote that he, the listener, studied the church too much, lost his faith, and he noticed that before he lost his faith, his wife really respected his point of view, his wife really respected things he had to say. But that as soon as he lost his faith and his wife found out, now he just doesn't feel like he has much credibility in the relationship. He doesn't feel the same level of respect. It's sort of like as long as you were filling that faithful role, priest, righteous priesthood holder in the home, you've got that respect, but now you're a disappointment, and now your opinion has been downgraded. 60% or whatever. What would you recommend to a couple where one just feels genuinely disrespected? How do they work on that?

53:18 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, I do think that that's a very normal first response. You know, especially given our cultural context, that wife has been taught that that's supposed to be her response. We do that as an overall culture. I mean, how many of us who've either transitioned completely or somewhere in a nuanced space feel like our credibility has gone down right, with our believing family or ecclesiastical leaders or anything of those of that nature? So it's part of the cultural context. I just want to normalize it in that regard. But it is also something that although you can normalize it and even quote, unquote, put up with it for a while as you allow your partner to adjust and transition with you, it is something that you need to speak up about eventually and be able to assert our own needs and our own experience within our relationship. Something that we're not super great at doing. And I will say even further, my experience is that I don't think Mormon men are good at doing. Mormon men have very much been given this script that, you know, a happy wife, a happy life, that she's the one that you're supposed to care for and love and be, you know, cognizant of her precious, fragile feelings. And unless you've got really kind of a patriarchal jerk who is abusive, most Mormon men will be very appeasing to the wife's needs and will not necessarily know, even have been told or taught how to say, hey, guess what? I have a need too. And to be able to do that in a way that, you know, she can listen to. So that, of course, is a lot of, again, what marital therapy is about and helping people do those things. I am always extremely saddened when I hear that people have divorced or separated or even like entered into polyamorous relationships or like made huge shifts in their relationship that have gone south without really being able to access the resources of marital therapy.

55:25 Margi Dehlin Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

55:27 John Dehlin I'll just say it was Clay who posted that question. Thanks, Kimberly, for reviving it. For some reason, I couldn't see it. I'll also add that the respect thing can go both ways. In the mixed face scenario, I very often see sort of the non believer turn to the believing spouse and now direct towards them, disrespect. You're like an ostrich with your head in the sand. You're acting foolish, you're acting ignorant, you're blind, you're a Sheep and just really all of a sudden just lower their level of kindness and respect to their partners. It goes both ways in a difficult situation.

56:10 Natasha Helfer Parker And it goes back to this resistance to change. Right. Resistance to change. I don't like the ways you're different from me. I'm super smart and awesome. So if you're not like me, you must not be super smart. Right. And so it is really difficult to have those conversations. And I think this was part of my point too. One of my points is that unless really since the age of two, unless you're paying for it or you just have to be in it because you're a minor, nobody really wants a relationship with a parent, a teacher, or a missionary.

56:47 Margi Dehlin Unless.

56:47 Natasha Helfer Parker Unless you're the one that you're. Yeah. Unless you're the one opening the door and saying, yes, please, I want to listen. Or unless you're paying for a class or unless, you know, you definitely don't want to be married to a parent, a teacher or a missionary. And it's those authoritative.

57:03 John Dehlin A spouse treats you like they're your parents.

57:06 Natasha Helfer Parker Yes.

57:07 John Dehlin Or what are the others? Teacher.

57:09 Natasha Helfer Parker A teacher.

57:10 John Dehlin Let me teach you the way things are.

57:12 Natasha Helfer Parker Exactly.

57:14 John Dehlin Spouse. Teacher. What's the third?

57:15 Margi Dehlin Missionary.

57:15 Natasha Helfer Parker Missionary. Which is exactly.

57:18 John Dehlin Because it implies I know the truth. You don't now.

57:21 Natasha Helfer Parker That's right.

57:22 John Dehlin Bring you to the truth. Right.

57:23 Natasha Helfer Parker Or you're in trouble and I'm all knowing or you know, I have something. It's a superiority role that we want. Egalitarianism. And you're absolutely right, John, that it goes both ways. You know, it goes from a believer to the non believer and the non believer to the believer for sure.

57:40 John Dehlin And also it's not necessarily power. Like maybe sometimes a mother can play a nurturing role and nurturing sometimes can be good. But sometimes if your partner becomes your sort of like comfort blanket to where it's always their role to be making you feel better that, you know, sometimes that's your job. Right. And sometimes they need support.

58:04 Natasha Helfer Parker And I would still say there's other roles that play nurturing roles. Like there's a friend, there's a lover, and there's a partner. So those are the three kind of contra, you know, counterpoints I guess I would offer to the parent. Because even though, yes, part of a parent's role is to nurture. I want zero parenting aura with my husband. Right. Zero. That would be a total turn off. But I do want that nurturing that comes from a friendship or a lover or a partner that where we're going to have similar Goals where we're still going to care about each other, where I'm going to want to be there in your times of sorrow, be there in your times of pain and be an asset to you. Right, yeah, that makes sense.

58:49 Margi Dehlin You know what? You know what was coming up for me with respect and friendship was when we were traveling to see Kinky Boots, actually, we brought up a study, and we read through this study that was done online with thousands of couples, and I have zero. Like, can't cite it. Can't. Awesome. We'll just go with the idea.

59:10 John Dehlin You can search it and it's shared in the show notes.

59:12 Margi Dehlin Okay, that's what we'll do. But here's the idea that I thought was really interesting that came out of this study of thousands of couples that had been married for a long time. And it was that for the first 10 years, communication was super, super. Like the thing that really was paramount with the couples, among other things. But communication, what I thought was really interesting and it kind of plays into Gottman for me a little bit, was when it was longer term, like 15 to 30 to 40 years, respect. It turned to respect. And what I think is so interesting about that is Gottman kind of plays with this idea that there are issues in a marriage that are solvable. Some are solvable, and some. Some are not.

59:59 Natasha Helfer Parker That's right.

59:59 Margi Dehlin With the ones that are not. Right. It's how you navigate then around those things that it's kind of. It alludes to that a little bit to me. Communication. You're getting to know one another. You want to understand why they're doing what they're doing. Right. But then later on, you kind of have more of that information. It's more like, I trust and can respect you and us in our differences and why that might be paramount later.

1:00:26 John Dehlin So an example might be like. And this isn't me, but like, let's say one. One partner wants to drink and the other thinks drinking is bad because maybe they're still believing, or maybe they have alcoholism in their family. Maybe that's irreconcilable. Maybe I'm going to drink beer and you're never going to like it. But how we handle that. In other words, you know, can I maybe have some rules that I agree to so that I stay safe and that I act responsibly and I don't drink and drive, and I have a limit and I don't drink too much to the point where it affects my health, because we have a shared value of health. You don't have to like it and you don't have to even agree with it. But maybe we can talk about it and set up some boundaries in a way to where it doesn't negatively impact the relationship. Is that kind of what you're saying?

1:01:19 Margi Dehlin Yeah, sure.

1:01:20 John Dehlin Were you going to jump in, Natasha?

1:01:23 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:01:23 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, two thoughts and they're kind of unrelated. But the first one is marriage therapy has gotten a bad rap at times because it focused so much on communication skills, you know, which are important. I mean it's always nice to be able to learn something like if I say I feel instead of you make me, you know, that can be a helpful thing but it doesn't necessarily sound solve deep marital conflicts just because you're going to learn how to say, you know, I feel. And so that's one of Gottman's points, is that it's not so much how you communicate me that's a part of it, but it's much deeper than that. It's, it's really getting to these, you know, do you have my back? Are you going to give me the benefit of the doubt? Are you going to allow me to influence you? Do I allow you to influence me? Right. These are much more process oriented type things and just what's coming out of our mouth and how we communicate. And oftentimes I notice, you know, as far as the why there might be that difference too of communication being important at first is because oftentimes it's through if I can communicate with you better then you'll see it my way and you'll change to be like I want you to be versus by the time you've been married 20 years, you've kind of that boat has sailed. So now it's like I realize you're probably not going to change exactly how I want want you to. And so now it's more of a level of acceptance and respect and, and by the way, I don't like you changing me either, so maybe I should do that to you, etc. Right. So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Now as far as boundaries and one of the things that we're all tangent here is this really comes up a lot with I think the hot topic word that I call a postmortemism, which is authenticity. Right. So how authenticity becomes a very large value for people who are transitioning and there's nothing wrong with that. I think authenticity is a great value to have. However, what I notice it doing oftentimes is that it really, I hate to use the word justify but it causes people to Say, well, unilateral decisions are fine because I have to be authentic. Okay. So if I want to drink coffee and. And the church has told me I can't drink coffee, and I think it's totally ridiculous as to the reasons that I can't drink coffee without talking to my spouse, without, you know, really looking at the relational context of that, I'm going to go drink coffee because if not, I'm not going to be able to be authentic, and I can no longer put up with that in my life. Right. And so I just try to challenge that a little bit and being able to include what I call relational authenticity. Because whether we are aware of it or not, all of us are in relationships and all of us compromise in ways that sometimes are really no big deal and other times are a bigger deal because we are in relationship with other people. So the classic example I give, and people are probably sick of hearing it, is there's nothing authentic about me changing a poopy diaper.

1:04:30 Margi Dehlin Right?

1:04:31 Natasha Helfer Parker Right. But I. But there is something authentic about me being a mom. And if I was not married to my particular spouse, I would probably do some things in my life differently that I only do a certain way because I know that's important to him, but that doesn't make me less authentic. I have accepted those things because he matters to me too. Right. So I matter. He matters. There's where the compromise comes, and there's relational authenticity in that. And so one of the just kind

1:05:01 Margi Dehlin of

1:05:04 Natasha Helfer Parker tidbits of advice I give is to try to stay away from unilateral decisions. And that doesn't mean that you're waiting for your spouse to give you permission, because again, that's that parent role.

1:05:12 John Dehlin Right.

1:05:13 Natasha Helfer Parker It's more about, I'm willing to have a conversation with you. I'm willing to wait to change a lifestyle until at least I can understand how you're feeling about it, and at least until we've had a discussion about how that may affect our relationship and maybe even, like, to your point, make some guidelines that would make us both comfortable or some exploration periods where we can say, well, let's try this for three months and see where we're at after that. So maybe not an ongoing decision, like a trial period. Yeah, yeah. So those, you know, when it comes to taking off your garments or church attendance or what we will or won't tell the kids or coffee and alcohol, I think it's really wise to include your partner in the discussions and not just say, well, I'm going to be authentic. And I don't care how you feel about it. I need to be me.

1:06:09 Margi Dehlin So true.

1:06:12 John Dehlin Really quickly, we've got some great comments and questions coming in from listeners. Some of them are directly related, some of them aren't. Jesse asks. Our good friend Jesse, our therapist is recommending we both seek individual therapy first to fix our individual problems before doing marriage therapy. Is this a normal approach? I'll wait and get my answer. Natasha, what's your answer to Jessie's question?

1:06:39 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, I'm trying not to laugh at that answer because I know there's all different kinds of ways to do therapy and I know there's lots of different approaches. I'm not trying to shame any therapists, but I always find it extremely interesting, this idea or notion that we're going to go off and individually work on ourselves. I'm like, in what island and in what time frame and with what energy am I going to be able to do that without also still being in my marriage or being in my parenting relationships or all the other relationships that in my world? So if there's an island where I can go and stay there for five months and work on myself, please let me know and I'll sign up. I'll be the first one to sign up. But it just doesn't. So that's not my style. I have heard of therapists, for example, that will say, you need to get sober. Somebody's alcoholic, you need to get sober before. I'll work with you on this or that. I'm uncomfortable with that approach just because I feel like there are family relationships that happening. There's a marital relationship happening whether that person's sober or not. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't times when individual therapy is very useful and people need that individual space. And I would say in conjunction with couples work, you know, or family work, depending on what your situation is. The problem, of course, for that, for many people, which I'm not unaware of, is time and resources and energy. It's so I got that, I got that. That's a difficult combination. But that's what I would recommend. So I guess I would just say it's not necessary to do it that way. But I understand if people are like, I'm just going to work on this piece for now. That's all I have energy for, that's all I have money for or things of that nature.

1:08:25 John Dehlin Yeah. My response is going to be very similar. The thing I didn't like in the question is, do we seek individual therapy first before I don't know that that sequence makes sense, but it's absolutely okay. And sometimes for me, recommended to both have each of you seeing an individual therapist and to be in couples therapy if your insurance or if you financially can afford that. Because let's just say someone's experiencing severe depression and they're in a relationship that isn't working. If they don't get a handle on their serious depression, it's really hard for them to even be in a place where they can work on their marriage. And so that's just one example of many types of things. Maybe it's an anxiety disorder, maybe it's obsessive compulsive disorder, maybe it's trauma. Maybe you've experienced some severe trauma that just went unresolved. Any of those things can be their own things that require individual specialized treatment and they're going to be blockers potentially to success. But I don't know that sequentially that's necessary. That's my response.

1:09:44 Natasha Helfer Parker And oftentimes all of those things that you mentioned, like the more clinical issues for people. I'm a big proponent of involving the family in treatment. We tend to be very clinical, like, okay, well, you have depression. Well, but guess what? The whole family is living with that depression. Right. And the whole family is affected by that depression. And that depression doesn't define that just one person. Right. A lot of people define themselves by their diagnoses. I'm like, you're not depression, but depression is living in your home, you know, and it's a little monster that we're gonna have to learn how to deal with. Right. And that's unfortunate for everybody. So even though the individual suffering from that diagnosis may need the brunt of the, of the treatment, really believe family treatment is really important, including kids who don't understand why, you know, why is this happening? And giving tools, some kids, some resources to understand mental illness.

1:10:36 Margi Dehlin So important because otherwise they can oftentimes process that as being their fault.

1:10:42 Natasha Helfer Parker Exactly. They're very egocentric. Right. So it must be mom doesn't love me or dad doesn't care, or when really you can have some really great sit downs with kids and explain. No, this is a symptom of this and this is why this is happening.

1:10:56 John Dehlin Yeah.

1:10:57 Margi Dehlin So important.

1:10:58 John Dehlin And another and another justification for couples therapy with individual therapy is maybe you are experiencing severe depression, but maybe your marital problems are a major factor contributing to the individual.

1:11:12 Natasha Helfer Parker Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

1:11:14 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:11:14 John Dehlin And if you don't resolve the marital difficulties, you know that that's what's underlying your depression. So, yeah, that's just a thought. Jesse keeps saying, Jesse loves you, Natasha. Jesse keeps saying that he just wished that you lived in Utah so that you were on his insurance. And I just want to. I just want to take a second to say there are some fabulous licensed therapists in Utah. If you can't do coaching with somebody out of Utah, Jenny Morrow is someone that I recommend. She's been on this podcast before. That's Ginny Morrow Healing. Kristen Bennion is fabulous. I love Marty Erickson Alliance Behavioral Health down in Provo, Orem. And Natasha, if you go to the Mormon Mental Health association, you can go by state and you can find providers by state. And what people wish, wish that you could provide is health insurance on your site. But I think you just need to click on their link and hopefully it will take you to their site to show health insurance information. But I just want to tell Jesse and everyone else that there are great therapists who are licensed in Utah or in whatever state you reside, Idaho, Arizona, California.

1:12:31 Natasha Helfer Parker And if you're a therapist who is hearing this and is interested in being on that directory to please contact us. And also I'll just mention too, Jennifer White works for Symmetry Solutions, which then I supervise all of that. And she's in Utah as well. So yes, there are many wonderful people who can work on these things. By no means am I. So much of what I've learned is just because I've learned it from other mental health professionals as well.

1:12:59 John Dehlin Okay. Rick has been waiting patiently for an answer to his question, and it's a question that we've dealt with in other episodes, so we don't need to go deep into it. But Natasha, Rick is asking, is polyamorous just the Mormon way? The Mormon way. The Mormon way of saying sleeping around. It's been years since I was in marriage counseling, but I don't recall ever hearing my secular counselors using this language. I'm curious if Mormons are more open to these anomalous relationships due to the LDS history of non monogamous marriages. That's a whole podcast in polyamorous. Just another way of saying sleeping around, Natasha.

1:13:43 Natasha Helfer Parker No, not necessarily. I do think polyamory, yes, it can be. Polyamory is a big umbrella and there's lots of different terms to describe.

1:13:54 John Dehlin Non monogamy is a better broad umbrella, right?

1:13:57 Natasha Helfer Parker Probably. Yes.

1:13:57 John Dehlin Yeah.

1:13:58 Natasha Helfer Parker Yes. Non monogamy. So there's relationships where. Yes, it's just about having sexual experiences with other people within an honest construct within your monogamous, otherwise monogamous marriage, I guess, which might be called swinging or, you know, things of that nature. And it can involve non sexual relationships that are more about romantic love or commitments or, you know, so it's, it's. Yeah, it's a whole nother podcast in of itself, but it is, I do believe there are some not risks, but, like, what would the word be? So if you're Mormon and you're coming out of a faith transition, I do believe there are reasons why we're talking about polyamory or non monogamy a lot. Because there tends to be some issues that people are dealing with as they come out of a faith transition that may, may or may not be as indicated in other cultures. And one is that many, many Mormons did not have much sexual exploration prior to marriage. Right. So many, many Mormons did marry as virgins or if they did have premarital relationships, that was very much clouded in guilt and sadness and kind of this sinful rhetoric. And so they never felt like they got to explore or have healthy sexual relationships prior to marriage. For some transitioners, this is no big deal. Like, they don't even think twice about it. For many transitioners, this is a huge deal. They feel like they were robbed or, you know, dealt a huge blow in their upbringing by having missed out on maybe a more, what we would call a more normative American experience. Right. So. Because by no means are Mormons the only ones who, you know, practice this idea of sinful premarital sex. And then the other, I think, kind of subconscious thing that we all have going on is polygamy. Right. And so whether we like to think about it or not, or however much we like to push that under the rug, I think most of us would agree that that thought did enter our minds at some point of our believing marriage. You know, would I be in a polygamous marriage in the afterlife if something happened to me? Would you remarry? And if so, how would that affect our relationship? I think those are very normal thoughts that most Mormons have at one point, whether they're talking about it with their partner or not. And so I do believe that there's a subconscious something that is happening in our polygamists psyches. Right. And so then when you all of a sudden are going through a faith transition and you're able to renegotiate or rethink your sexual values and identity and experiences you want to have, I can't not assume that that isn't playing somewhat of a role.

1:16:48 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah.

1:16:50 Natasha Helfer Parker I have zero research to Back that up. But that's just been my experience.

1:16:53 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:16:53 John Dehlin I also think that repressive, sexually repressive cultures often elicit backlash. And so because we've all those of us, most of us, many of us in orthodox Mormonism, just sort of, like, were sexually repressed or sex came with such charge, shaming, limiting, controlling sort of language, I think sometimes when we. When we react against sexual repression, it's sort of in extreme opposites. Is that. Is there something to that, Natasha?

1:17:32 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah. No, I would agree. I think pendulum shifts are, you know, definitely normal. Same with Faye transition, if you. Like I said. I think I said this already at the beginning. If you came from a super. Or maybe it was a client I was talking to earlier. I can't remember now.

1:17:48 John Dehlin Don't tell us her name.

1:17:52 Natasha Helfer Parker But this idea, if you come from, like, a, you know, you can't watch rated R movies, you can't have coke in your house, you can't wear anything but Sunday dress on Sundays, you know, if you come from that type of Mormon family and go through a faith transition, my experience has been that you're gonna swing all the way over here. You're gonna be super angry, super betrayed, super defensive. Whereas if you came from, you know, the families that were a little less rigid, your faith transition is gonna look more like this. So that totally makes sense.

1:18:23 John Dehlin Yeah. Yeah, that makes good sense. So Amy writes, how do you communicate when your mind is full of a new thing, thought paradigm, and that consumes most of your thoughts, but your spouse doesn't want to go there and hear it. But we have the same values and can live well together and raising children. But I can't share so much of my inner thoughts. I crave that communication, intimacy. That is a fabulous question from Amy. Do you get the question?

1:18:54 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah.

1:18:56 John Dehlin What would you say to that?

1:18:57 Natasha Helfer Parker So there's probably the sex therapist in me, but I'm always talking about, like, managing different libidos. So it's kind of the same idea of managing different intimacy styles, emotional intimacy styles. And what's lucky about emotional intimacy styles versus sexual libidos is that you can actually go to outside sources without causing much disarray in a marriage. Right. So in other words, you can join a Facebook group or a book club or a mountain biking club or whatever if your spouse doesn't share the same interests. I would say that this is a yes and a pro. You know, it's like, yes, it's valid that you feel this way, and I would hope that you would at least talk to your spouse about feeling this way and that, you know, you miss this kind of, you know, intimacy with them. And you would hope that you'd be able to make space for that. And also understand that your spouse may not share that same level of interest and that you can find other sources and other areas of your life, too.

1:19:58 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:19:58 Natasha Helfer Parker To get that type of emotional need met. Right. So one of the things that I talk a lot about is myths of marriage. And one of the biggest myths, I think, is that you belong to me. Right. That's one myth. The other myth is I belong to you. And therefore. And we're going to meet all of each. All of our needs. You're going to be the main person who meets my needs. That's another big myth. And that's just not. That's going back to that soulmate kind of romantic idea about marriage. And the reality is, if you're getting about 65 to 75% of your needs met in a marriage, I think you're doing phenomenally well.

1:20:38 Margi Dehlin Wow, that's awesome.

1:20:40 John Dehlin And, Natasha, I'm going to. And Margi, this comes from things you've taught me as well. I'm going to say yes. And to your response, I think it's totally true that. That with emotional intimacy, you can find other sources or resources that don't violate the core of your relationship. However, I think there's a real risk to the situation that Amy describes, because if you've got this major paradigm shift of a religious crisis or a change in faith or loss of faith, and then you've got this whole new worldview, this vista that's opening up, if you fundamentally can't talk about that with your partner, and oftentimes people literally can't, their partner just says, I don't want to hear anything about it, and they shut it down. And then. And so you, like, are left to go to chat boards or Facebook or, you know, college, high school friends or whatever it is to find that emotional support, there's a real risk there, in my experience. And the risk is that over time, you just start growing apart and you start relying less and less on your partner for emotional intimacy. You start relying on other people more and more. And for me, that can become a recipe for just growing apart. And, you know, in my experience, when infidelities start to happen, it's when you've just stopped really looking to your core partner for your core emotional needs, and you've gotten used to going to your friends or going to Facebook or private things. It can be a real risk. And so would you disagree with that? Natasha and Margi, do you have anything to add to that as well?

1:22:42 Margi Dehlin Oh, we can go to Natasha first. I'm curious.

1:22:44 Natasha Helfer Parker No, I would agree with everything you've said. That's why I say 65 to 75%. So I do have you over the 50% mark. And I think that if Amy would have posited her question more, as we can't talk about it at all, then I would have shared more concern. And I do think that that's, again, if you're in that position, that can be a short transition phase that you need to allow your partner. Oftentimes what I found is that faith transitioners have gone through a lot of thinking and a lot of processing privately before they even share anything with a partner, and then are shocked when a partner has a negative response or feel, you know, so you kind of have to allow your partner some grieving time. And sometimes they require boundaries like, I'm not willing to look at, I'm not willing to read, I'm not willing to. And you can tolerate that for a certain amount of time, you know, maybe three to six months or even a year. But eventually you have to be also saying, this is not sustainable for me. This is not working. I need to be able to talk to you about these things if we're going to, you know, be able to flourish as a couple. But then also remembering that that's not the only thing. Sometimes faith transitioners, they get very focused, hyper focused. Right. So a lot of times, even from a more believing spouse, that I feel is very nuanced and has dealt very well with their partner's transitioner, I'll often get the complaint of that's all they do all day long is listen. I mean, they're listening to podcasts 10 hours a day, and I'm willing to listen to some of that with them, but I can't be that intensely involved. Right. So that's what I mean by being able to, first of all, have balance. Because it can be so overwhelming of an experience that that's all you're thinking, thinking about and wanting to do and talk about with your spouse. Like, let's focus on the other things you still have in common, other interests. Listen to other pot. If all you're doing is listening to Mormon podcasts, I would just challenge you to listen to something that's non Mormon, for example, some of the time. Right. So. So that your partner isn't so overwhelmed. And that can be true whether they're all in or even out. With you, there can be one of you that's more interested and keeping that dialogue going.

1:24:59 Margi Dehlin I love that point. That's such a great point. One thing I was thinking about when you read the question was just if this is a unique situation, a unique response to the transition, or is it something that could be said overall for the relationship that it really is a different need level for that sort of emotional intimacy, or is it really honestly that she's feeling connected to and most ways just probably not in this area. That's something I would reflect on just a little bit because I think the approaches would be different.

1:25:32 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, and John, you and I have presented a lot together on intimacy, right? And this idea that you can only really have the type of intimacy a partner is willing to share with you. You can have the best of intentions, the best communication skills, that you can only really enjoy the level of intimacy that a partner is willing to give. And so, yeah, at some point, it does become kind of those conflicting values. You know, maybe I'm not getting 100% of my emotional needs met. Maybe that's an unrealistic expectation. Maybe I can accept the ways that my partner does emotionally meet my needs and I can celebrate that and it's good enough. Maybe it's really concerning. Maybe I'm noticing myself going towards other people. Why is that? You know, why am I not. Is that me? Am I not being. Am I not. Am I not listening to the needs or requirements that my partner has for intimacy? Or is it my partner? Right, so these are very complex issues and require, you know, lengthy assessments. And the research supports that because most people, you know, for as much as we talk down people who get divorced, and we're like, oh, that's the easy way out. You know, most people who get divorced have been thinking about it for eight to 10 years. That's a long time to be processing whether or not this relationship is sustainable for me.

1:27:01 John Dehlin One more quick. Yes. And I like the 60:40 ratio. The thing that catches me is a little bit of a caution to that is, let's just say 60% evolves around exercise and the kids and your finances and, you know, lots of other parts of your life that don't involve your core spirituality and morality. I guess I'm just saying that this faith crisis thing can become this sort of dinosaur in the basement. Was there the dragon in the basement? I'm thinking my Harry Potter metaphor here. A dragon in the basement that can grow and burn the house down if it doesn't get addressed. So I don't Recommend long term avoidance of deeply talking about these issues. I've had great success as a coach taking a mixed faith couple, taking the religious language off of it, talking about fundamentals of emotional intimacy and what that looks like. And so many times the nonbeliever doesn't necessarily even need the believer to abandon their faith. So many times they just want to be heard out. They just want to be listened to. They want to hear their believing partner say, I get it. Wow, okay, I see why you've lost your faith. You're smart. I can see that for you this was an act of integrity and wow, if I saw the world from your point of view, I would leave too. Now I don't, you know, from the believer, I don't. I see the world differently. My, those things aren't as important to me. Other things are important to me. So I'm going to stay. But man, I validate and hear and understand if oftentimes, if a couple can just get to that point, the nonbeliever can go, oh, okay, well, if church fulfills you, you do that and I'll support you. And I don't need to go to church and you can support me. They can build a wonderful, fulfilling relationship without needing to agree. But I think it's usually more often than not essential that that conversation happens just so that both sides feel validated, listened to and understood. Which is separate from agreed with and on the same page.

1:29:37 Natasha Helfer Parker Yes, no, I would totally agree with that. And I would also say that it's not that I would say each quadrant that I mentioned prior. It's like 65 to 75% of your needs in each of those quadrants needs to be met. Because you can have, for example, really intellectual, right? Like you can have a really healthy relationship. Like, for example, our mixed orientation marriages, you know, they get a lot of flack if they divorce only for sex. So sex was the only thing that mattered to you. Right? Because otherwise you had a really good relationship. That quadrant matters. The physical intimacy matters. And it's. And if you're not getting your needs to met in that quadrant, that's really significant.

1:30:25 John Dehlin That's good. Okay, let's go. I think we may have talked about this a bit. Part three was the protection model versus intimacy model. Do you feel like we already covered that or do you want to say something more about that, Natasha?

1:30:38 Natasha Helfer Parker No, I think I'd like to say something about it. I think that it's a good way to frame it. I think we have. It goes along with many of the things that we've talked about, but to frame it specifically in that sense that again, we have been through our Mormon heritage, but also our romance culture heritage. We've been taught that oftentimes intimacy is about loving and caring for you and protecting you. And especially with that rhetoric like I was talking about before for male Mormon males, you know, to protect the woman's feelings and all of those things. And so the problem with that is that much of what is going to hurt you is me. And so if I'm protecting you from the things that will hurt you about me, well, then guess what that engenders. That engenders secrecy, and that engenders maybe shame or repression or, you know, like we're saying, not talking about issues. Oh, I could never tell my spouse that that would rock their world, right? Or I could never tell them of a sexual fantasy, or I could never tell them about my real ideas about my faith or. Because that would be so dramatic for them and so hurtful for them. So I'll just keep it to myself,

1:31:51 John Dehlin or that I masturbate or that I looked at porn a little bit or whatever.

1:31:54 Natasha Helfer Parker All of these many ways. Many, many ways. Or financially, I spent monies, you know, that I wouldn't want them to know about. Or there's many, many ways that we hold secret our behavior or our thoughts or our ideas from our partner, from this idea of, I'm trying to. To protect you. And that comes oftentimes sometimes from loving intention. Sometimes it just comes from fear. You know, I don't want to do that. It's scary to be able to really open myself up to that level. I probably am somewhat correct that they would be hurt and maybe they would leave me or maybe it would cause, you know, this huge distress in our relationship. And I'm not even saying that at times. That isn't even indicated. I'm not saying that nobody should do this. I'm just saying that we need to be aware when we are in protection style intimacies versus intimacy style intimacies. Which really, for me, the best metaphor of that is the biblical thing, right? Like, you will be naked with one another. Naked. You know, that's not. Just take off your clothes. That's. I'm taking off my emotional walls. I'm taking off. Off my. Like, I'm presenting myself to you, right? And so it's interesting to me how we do that physically, often in ways that are very sacred and personal. But it's much harder oftentimes to denude emotionally. And that is really where I think Emotional intimacy comes from and what you can tolerate and what the other person can tolerate. And sometimes you're in a system where you can't tolerate much. And you kind of know, if I demude emotionally, they probably are gonna leave. What am I gonna do financially? What are the kids gonna do? So, I mean, I understand why people don't do this, but at least we want to be cognizant that protection style intimacy versus intimacy style intimacy are two different things.

1:33:51 John Dehlin Yeah. Did you have something to say about that?

1:33:55 Margi Dehlin Well, I was gonna say. So would you go as far to say that the protection model then has some costs to it then? Some pretty heavy costs?

1:34:05 Natasha Helfer Parker Oh, I think it has huge costs, yeah. One of them. One of them mainly being personal authenticity and secondly being relational intimacy. But I understand why that sometimes that happens. I mean, I have to challenge myself in ways, you know, that I'm like, am I really opening myself up completely here?

1:34:26 Margi Dehlin I can feel very much for that. And I also am noticing as you were talking that, you know, really what is lost is sort of this idea of trust. Because by disclosing and being vulnerable, there is this sort of inherent exchange there that you're. There's an assumption that you are trusting the person that they actually can. And I really love that because it allows at least the chance for a growth model. It's not like you can't be sure, you can't control what the partner will do, but at least you've done your part, hopefully, in a really sensitive way, to be on this sort of growth model of how large is our love? How large can it go? What can connection mean for us amidst being really scared to show these darker parts of ourselves that we. We feel shame around? What would you say about that?

1:35:22 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, really, I love that because it requires a redefinition of trust. We often hold trust in the context of behavioral compliance.

1:35:32 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:35:33 Natasha Helfer Parker And now all of a sudden I'm telling you, maybe like you said, I masturbated or I had an affair, or I no longer believe the way we used to believe. Right. Or these all feel like betrayals.

1:35:43 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:35:44 Natasha Helfer Parker Oftentimes interesting when I'm working with infidelities and such, that people will say, well, yeah, now I can't trust you. And that, you know, it's different, of course, if somebody's caught versus somebody comes forward with information. But for those that are coming forward with information, I'm like, that's. They have trusted you with something pretty heavy here. Right. So how are we going to redefine what trust looks like? Is trust that, going to trust that you're always going to act in ways that will never hurt me or that you're always, you're never going to think in ways that would never hurt me. And that goes back to that mythology of I belong to you or you belong to me. Right. We're going to meet all of each other's needs. Most of your real struggles in life if you're in a long term relationship will come from your, from your partner. I think we have this idea that all the trials will come from outside in and we as a celestial couple, we will, you know, face all together. Right. And then all of a sudden you're like, wait, you're, you're kind of the person that's my biggest problem.

1:36:45 John Dehlin You're the problem. You're the problem.

1:36:49 Margi Dehlin It's true.

1:36:51 Natasha Helfer Parker So it's redefining trust. And I think in intimacy style marriages, the trust is about I'm going to really tell you who I am, I'm really going to get naked in front of you. Whereas the trust and protection style marriages is I'm going to act, think and behave in a way that lets you feel comfortable.

1:37:08 Margi Dehlin Right, right.

1:37:09 John Dehlin Yeah. Because if you're, if you're hiding who you are and what you're about, then you're, you're not actually, you know, it's not a relationship with you in it.

1:37:20 Margi Dehlin Right, right.

1:37:20 John Dehlin Your partner has a relationship with someone that's not you or a part of you. Right, right, exactly. Part of you or not all of you. And so that sort of core personal authenticity allows you to fully be in the relationship. But the second, I just want to echo what you said, that vulnerability, that difficult conversation, that stuff that you're most scared about can be the thing that provides the vulnerability, which I always say is the gasoline to the engine of intimacy. When, you know, I'll disclose something really, really sort of personal. And some people would say shameful. I remember when I first told Margi, admitted to her that I had masturbated sometimes during our marriage. I felt super embarrassed and shamed. And this is like 20 years into our marriage, you know, if you don't mind me sharing, Margi cried. But what was beautiful, that was hard and it was awkward and it sucked. What was beautiful was what happened on the other side of that. Because instead of like, you know, keeping the band aid on once that was kind of ripped off, it allowed us to have this conversation about, well, what are your sexual needs? You know, what are your sexual needs? Is there a way that we can meet each other's needs directly, so that there isn't necessarily a need for, you know, for you to meet those needs on your own. Not that there's anything wrong with meeting the needs on your own, but I can tell you from personally, pretty much all the time, I'd prefer to be with Margi than meet my own needs if given a choice. That's just how I am. And so having that difficult conversation led to a conversation where we could talk about that. Also, for me, my interest in that sort of stuff diminished significantly once the shame and the secrecy element was taken away. And so once I knew that Margi just loved me no matter what and that, you know, maybe that wasn't her perfect ideal of what our relationship would be about, but that if I did that I was still loved and embraced and accepted and wasn't shamed about it, all of a sudden I was less interested in doing that as much. And again, not that that's forbidden in our relationship or that it should even be bad. I'm just saying that there was a lot of magic that happened, a lot of growth that happened for us once we just talked about it. And most of the growth happened for me not sitting in this place of secret, isolated shame and secrecy and hiding. The sunshine became this beautiful antiseptic for us. And then I'll just say, just really quickly, Natasha, you may want. Either of you may want to trail on that. Oftentimes we've got this band aid and we don't want to pull it off. And so instead of having a little bit of pain right now, by pulling it off, we subject ourselves to this prolonged, chronic, and sometimes ultimately way more severe pain later on by avoiding the discussion of the difficult topic than the pain or difficulty that we would have had if we had just talked about it right up front early on. And so don't sort of trade a little bit of pain now or even a lot of pain now for a massive amount of pain. And sometimes, you know, we can go a bridge too far over time. My suggestion is if you're going to err, err on the side of full disclosure earlier versus waiting too long for more catastrophic pain or irreparable pain down the road. Any reactions to that?

1:41:35 Margi Dehlin Well, I was just gonna say as well, the way I remember it, too, when you came into that conversation, your fear was really high. His fear was really high that I was gonna, like, leave him, or if we. If I stayed in the marriage, there would be this. This judgment I had about him being shameful or having done that. I just wouldn't shake. And it would affect how I treated him or how I looked at him or how I viewed him. And the irony and what I think is most healing about that is how would we have known about our love? Like, how it would work if he hadn't disclosed it so that I could say, oh, hon, like, I really, I love you. I remember in that moment and part of the crying, honestly, was like an innocence, like, I think I sensed in myself, this sort of control piece, or an innocence, not having information, kind of peace. But more than that, it was that I sensed how much he was grieving over it, how stressed he was, how. And I felt like, how long has he been carrying this alone versus sharing it? And so these are all, I think, really important, beautiful gifts that come from having a really, really difficult conversation. And in the meantime, I was able to look, really educate myself. I was. Got very interested, got very. I mean, I grew up with my dad as a mental health professional, so I didn't have. He was always very liberal and very healthy about things. So it's not like I had a very dramatic response or judgment on my own. But it really did make me kind of take it and take it on myself and say, I want to learn about this, actually, I really want to find out for myself and so that I can be a real partner in a healthy paradigm with my husband in this way.

1:43:37 Natasha Helfer Parker So, yeah, no, I think thank you for sharing all that personal stuff, because I think oftentimes those kinds of stories can really make a difference when they are personal. I think that there's this conflict, this constant tension of what I call kind of the safety wheel. Right. Or the cycle of safety. Because on the one hand, it's like, I want to be the kind of spouse where you could tell me everything, and I want you to trust me and tell me, tell me, tell me. Right? And then all of a sudden, we're told something. We're all like, don't tell me that. You know, I don't want to deal with that problem. Right. And so that's like, that's a hard thing when we want intimacy. But then we also have our own reactions to what real intimacy looks like, which means we're going to have to be comfortable addressing some uncomfortable situations. Right. And discussions. And so I really try to normalize that for my couples, that you can't really expect your partner to be a complete, safe space. Kind of like how I started the discussion like, oh, I'm so glad you're telling me that you were masturbating in secret our entire marriage. You know, it's like you might cry or you might be sad or there might be feelings of betrayal or. But that with that you can say, well, you know, thanks for telling me this. And yeah, I'm having, I'm really hurt and. But let's figure this out. So it's kind of like the cycle of like, I can tell you something, you don't need to be 100% safe, but if you could be like 70% safe, that would be really wonderful as far as me being able to trust you again with more information. Oftentimes people try. Like if it would have been different between the two of you and Margi would have had gone into like a three month depression cycle and really kicked you out of the bedroom, or if it would have been much more rigid of a response, then you may not have been comfortable coming back and saying something more in the future. Right. And so we want to be careful on both ends, right?

1:45:39 John Dehlin Yeah. Like in the Mormon context, a wife catches a husband masturbating or vice versa and it's like we have to go tell the bishop. And now maybe you don't take the sacrament and now you're not a worthy priesthood holder and now I'm ashamed to have you as the father of my children. And now you need to go to a 12 step program because you are an addict and that spiral can be devastating individually and to a relationship.

1:46:05 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah. And so you can understand, she's been taught to have that response oftentimes. Right. That's the right thing to do. That's how she's going to help her husband is to have that type of rigid response. Again, it's not because she's malicious usually. And then he oftentimes will go right back into secrecy and protection style marriage mode because what other options are there? That's why I'm not trying to shame protection style marriages. There's real reasons. I mean, think about, even if you're a woman in a domestic violence type of situation and you don't want to have even the possibility of joint custody, you may be very, you may be very motivated to stay in a protection style marriage for many years, even though you know it comes at great personal cost, because at least in your perspective, whether it's true or not, the cost of going anything else is too high.

1:46:57 John Dehlin I have a hard question for you and this just came out of the blue. I once had someone tell me if you cheat in terms of infidelity, if you tell the spouse you're Doing it for yourself, you're not doing it for the spouse. In other words, if you cheat and then you, you know, let's just say you decide not to cheat again. Do you disclose or not? I've. I've heard it say there's. I've heard someone say there's no possible benefit to tell your spouse you've cheated. If you stop, then you're not going to do it again because it's just going to add all this complexity and distress, and it'd be more to do it to get it off your chest or make yourself not feel guilty. But don't pretend that you're actually doing it for your spouse, because you're really just gonna wreck their lives. What would you say to that? If somebody said they're protecting their spouse from that information?

1:47:52 Natasha Helfer Parker So the older I get, the less comfortable I am with any statement. That's a wide, sweeping brush, like, it's never this or it's always that, or. I think that so much relies on context. You know, there's very few things that I'm willing to hang my pretty rigid stances on, one of them being addiction counseling for sexuality. But other than that, I'm pretty and I'm. And I'm even open to that changing if the research supports it. Right. But I'm just saying I think I would have had much more rigid stances as a marriage therapist earlier in my career around statements like that, where you always should disclose because otherwise, you know, you're just keeping things secret in a marriage, and that's never good. I've listened to many stories where I feel like that was actually the wise thing to do, you know, to not say. To not disclose. And then there are other relationships where I would say that's absolutely impeding on the intimacy. And a lot of Esther Perel's work around infidelity and how working through infidelity can really actually get you to a whole new level of intimacy if your marriage survives. Yes, there is a risk your marriage will not survive a disclosure. Right. And why oftentimes people will not disclose, but oftentimes that can be the work that really propels your relationship to a whole new level. Kind of like what you're discussing with your masturbation disclosure. Right. So it's very tricky, and I think we as mental health professionals should get out of the business of telling people you should or should not do whatever in any given situation without really just allowing for the exploration and the context of their particular situation.

1:49:35 John Dehlin Beautiful. All right. Well, we're kind of Winding up today's conversation. I'm really, really happy with the level of engagement we've had. Great comments and discussion from our Facebook listeners. I really want to thank those who joined us on Facebook Live to participate. We have a lot of points in there for our show notes. So for Amy and Cody, if you're listening, we'll make sure to comb the comments for the links to put in the show notes so that people can have those as resources. But Natasha, I think this has been a great first stab at some important topics around healthy marriage. So any sort of summation you want to do today for our listeners to kind of summarize or to leave a final point of perspective for today before.

1:50:33 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, did I even cover the five points that I gave you? I can't even remember what the five points.

1:50:39 John Dehlin The last two were avoiding power differentials and ownership rhetorics. And then the final one was challenging the rhetoric of codependence, which I love those.

1:50:49 Margi Dehlin So can we come back? Can we discuss those?

1:50:52 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah. And I do think we did discuss them. I mean, the parent teacher missionary was definitely part of that power differential stuff of avoiding those. And the codependency was really my comments around not being islands. I really feel like we shame women in particular. I don't know many men who are told they're codependent. We tell men they're sex addicts and we tell women they're love addicts.

1:51:19 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:51:20 Natasha Helfer Parker Oh my gosh. Anyway. Because you know, men who are emotionally needy. That's beautiful. And women who are sexually promiscuous. That's wonderful too. Right? Just like mind blown. Anyway, I just think that that codependency language. Yes. There are times when we need to learn how to self soothe and learn how to not always count on another person for our own emotional regulation. And I think that's what most codependent literature is about. But I feel like our culture often takes that to that extreme of I've got to figure myself out and then I can have a relationship with other people. And I'm just like, in what world can you do that? You know, I just don't know how you do that. So I think that that's a constant meld of figuring ourselves out, figuring out our relationships and that's constantly interwoven and everyday experiences for ourselves.

1:52:13 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:52:14 Natasha Helfer Parker So as far as closing thoughts, I just. If you've stuck in with us, I mean, thank you. And I think that these types of relationships that we call marriage or long term, whatever you want to, whatever type of long term relationship you're in are wonderful crucibles, wonderful and awful crucibles of self learning and all these values that we think think about. Boy, no better place to live your values than in the context of a long term relationship. Whether you end up staying with that person for 50 years or 5 years or however long those relationships last in your life, they're all significant and they all have a lot to teach us.

1:52:59 John Dehlin Beautiful. Well, Natasha Alver Parker, we love, we always love having you on the show. We're going to have you back. I think it's next week to continue this discussion. I really want to encourage not one person emailed a comment or question to mormonstoriesmail.com We're a shame free podcast but we would love to see would be to have people email in some questions and some scenarios and that way we can look at it, we can plan for it. If there are issues, topics, faith, transition, post Mormons, anything, please message us with your situation. Your question again, mormonstoriesmail.com and we'll prepare those scenarios and questions and topics for our next discussion. We really want this to be interactive, so we want to invite you guys to join us next week. If you want more part two of this discussion to make your marriage great, you might need more than one episode of a podcast. Is that true?

1:54:04 Margi Dehlin It's likely.

1:54:05 John Dehlin Is that fair? Okay, so please consider joining us next week. Please consider sending us your messages. Natasha, if someone wants to get ahold of you, how do they find you?

1:54:21 Natasha Helfer Parker Through my website, symmetrysouls.com so symmetry sols.com is the best way to reach me? Yeah, I think that's probably the best way.

1:54:33 John Dehlin Okay.

1:54:33 Natasha Helfer Parker Giving out personal information.

1:54:35 John Dehlin All right, so check out Natasha Alfred Parker's Symmetry Solutions. Again, I just want to thank everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation to make this possible. I have to make this plug. Every time we rely on your support to support the nonprofit. We're financially transparent. We are responsible with your funds and all the money goes towards the mission which is supporting people in religious transition. So please take the time. If you've benefited from these episodes and you don't contribute, just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, set up a 10 or 20 or whatever $50 recurring donation and just know that that money will keep this alive and allow us to keep providing this information not just for you, but for people who come after you. So it's a worthy cause and it's tax deductible. So I want to thank Cody Layton, who is our technical podcast producer. I want to thank Amy Grubbs, who's our director of operations. I want to thank Margi, who's wonderful.

1:55:38 Margi Dehlin I want to thank John, who's awesome. And we both want to thank Natasha

1:55:43 John Dehlin and Natasha who is well.

1:55:45 Natasha Helfer Parker And I second all the donation stuff. I mean, the stuff that Open Stories puts out, all the stuff you put out, stuff I put out, and all of our other colleagues. I mean, I hope people understand this is very valuable resources. It's so valuable for me, even in my work, to be able to direct somebody to a podcast or to a written piece that's been done by the Open Stories foundation. And it's really very valuable resources that are really just available for free. Free and. But it doesn't come for free.

1:56:13 John Dehlin Yeah. Check out Mormon Mental Health Podcast. Donate to Mormon Mental Health Podcast. Check out Mormon Sex info. Great stuff there. So thanks again, everybody.

1:56:24 Margi Dehlin We're excited for next week.

1:56:25 John Dehlin Sure. Love you and Natasha.

1:56:27 Natasha Helfer Parker See you next week.

1:56:29 John Dehlin Please do send your questions or scenarios so that we can address them on the show. All right, love you guys. Thanks, everybody. Talk to you soon. Take care. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights and other sources.

1:56:59 Natasha Helfer Parker Cease to make me behold when with the wounded heart, anger or malice

1:57:17 Margi Dehlin I

1:57:18 Natasha Helfer Parker draw myself apart, searching my soul.

0:00 John Dehlin Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

0:36 Natasha Helfer Parker The kindly light a myth encircling gloom Lead thou me on.

0:46 John Dehlin Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am your co host John Dehlin and I am joined by my brilliant

0:56 Margi Dehlin partner, oh so generous Margi Dylan.

1:00 John Dehlin It's great to have you guys with us again. Guys and girls, it is May 9, 2017 for Mormon Transitions Podcast. This is episode 24 for Mormon Stories. I'm losing count, but today's episode is Healthy Marriage Part two and we're really excited to have you with us. We always have some announcements. We just had an amazing one and a half day workshop in Fort Collins, Colorado. Shout out to my Denver area, Fort Collins, Pepys, even. Some people came from Nebraska and Wyoming I think. But it was just an amazing time. So much healing and growth. Focus on Mormon transitions, on faith transitions, on healthy relationships, on communicating with believing family and friends, raising healthy kids, spirituality, all that stuff. It was an amazing time. We are just so we are just so thrilled to be able to do these events and we've got several coming up and so I'm just going to quickly let you know of the upcoming calendar. July 7th through 8th we're going to be in Dallas, Texas for a full two day retreat. We're hoping San Antonio, Austin, Houston, Oklahoma City, Fort Worth, all those wonderful places. And anyone who wants to fly in from out of state, please join us in Dallas for a two day retreat. We will be doing karaoke, I can give you that promise. We'll have Texas barbecue. We're gonna try and do some fun stuff like a pool party or hikes or something. It's gonna be more fun. So please join us. August 11th and 12th I am so super excited to announce Mixed Faith couples retreat. So Dr. Julie de Azevedo Hanks August 11th through 12th we will be co leading a retreat, a two day retreat for couples where one believes and one doesn't. That's a really difficult thing to experience and in the past we've had post or transitioning Mormons outnumbering believers. So in this event Julie's a believer. She attends church. I maybe not so much a believer, not so much attending church, but together we will be leading this retreat where it's 50, 50 all the way. So please bring your partner and join us if you're in that difficult situation. Seattle 14th and 15th will be in Seattle, Washington. Really excited about that, to return to the place where we lived for seven years. October 20th through 22nd, we'll be in Sydney, Australia. Gina Colvin gets really angry when I just say Australia. She wants it to be Sydney, Australia. And so we're really excited to be doing a retreat kind of at a resort. We're really excited about that. And we have November 9th and 10th. We're coming to the San Francisco Bay Oakland area for a workshop there. And again, we're really excited for that. So those are our upcoming events. Please join us. As always, we really invite you to email ideas for topics, questions, concerns, anything. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com we'll incorporate your emails, questions, comments, ideas into the podcast. Our topic for next Tuesday is going to be creating a new family culture. That's a topic that my sweet wife wanted to cover. So she's going to be semi leading or leading that discussion, but we also will be providing backup. But we're really excited for that. Are you excited for that? Yeah. Yeah. What made you excited about that topic?

4:47 Margi Dehlin It's something that I feel like I love to be thoughtful about. And it's something, I think where a little bit of thought goes a long way. You feel it immediately, I think, in your family and in your daily life. And I love things like that.

5:01 John Dehlin So next week, creating a new family culture. And then really quickly, we wanted to begin a new little segment. This again was my sweet wife Margi's idea.

5:16 Margi Dehlin I'm so sweet. You are being very brilliant.

5:18 John Dehlin My brilliant, my brilliant, intelligent, capable, skilled wife, Margi. Tell us about the weekly share and why you like this idea.

5:29 Natasha Helfer Parker I don't know.

5:29 Margi Dehlin I just think it's. I love these types of things and I thought it would just be a fun way to give you just a little bit of an insight into things that are helping us better, our lives or things we're enjoying. They're providing us sort of a joy moment or so it's just a way of kind of sharing a bit of our life with you.

5:49 John Dehlin Sharing something that we're doing or thinking or have learned that we've incorporated into

5:54 Margi Dehlin our lives that makes it us happy or we feel like it's making our lives better.

5:58 John Dehlin All right, well, let's start with yours. What's your weekly share?

6:02 Margi Dehlin So my weekly share actually happened this morning. I was in a bit of a rush and I like to meditate. I try to meditate about 10 minutes every morning and I tend to do a guided meditation practice just because I find it calms my mind and makes it kind of focus a little bit more than silence or some of the other way. But I was in a rush and so I looked on my Calm app and noticed they had a walking meditation and I had to actually exercise. And so I did both. I tried a walking meditation this morning through my Calm app and I loved it. And so it's just a little something different from my routine of just sort of a sit and listen type of meditation. But I took it out to the road and it was very sensory oriented and breathing oriented. But I liked having the flexibility of being able to exercise as well as, you know, have a little meditation in there. So little recommendation walking meditation. And you don't have to do it through an app. You can do it on your own. It's very sensory, sort of motivated, feeling your feet, looking around, smelling how the wind like wind feels or it's very just sort of senses oriented breathing. And anyway, it was delightful.

7:21 John Dehlin And again, the app you use is calm from calm.com, is that right?

7:25 Margi Dehlin That's the app I use.

7:26 John Dehlin And this is not an endorsement, a paid endorsement.

7:29 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

7:29 John Dehlin This is a life, a Margi endorsement.

7:32 Margi Dehlin So what's yours?

7:34 John Dehlin So mine's just really simple. I focus this week on something I call not reacting. So basically, normally I try and be even keeled and calm and collective and occasionally something will happen in the family that's triggering that can make me angry or upset. And you know, in the past, sometimes when I get upset, maybe I'm not as kind or as patient or as loving as I should be. And so this week I just focused on recognizing when I was being triggered and practicing not reacting to the volatile emotions I was experiencing inside. And I think it's fair to say that there were at least several times over the weekend and even yesterday I can affirm this where I was super cool and calm as a cucumber.

8:30 Margi Dehlin Yeah, babe.

8:31 John Dehlin And it prevented any big disruption from happening and allowed us to just have more of a calm, collected family experience.

8:41 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Yeah. Formidable.

8:43 John Dehlin Yeah. So that's what I did. Not reacting. Try it sometime. Try not reacting to your emotions every time you feel them. It works.

8:52 Margi Dehlin It was brilliant.

8:54 John Dehlin Yeah. So anyway, that's our little weekly share high five. First time in the weekly share Let

9:01 Margi Dehlin us know how you feel about it if you like it. Let us know if you'd rather us like thanks or no thanks. You can write that too. Yeah.

9:08 John Dehlin All right. All right. So now it is time for our topic. Today we are covering part two of a little two part interview with the wonderful Natasha Helfer Parker. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She is a licensed sex therapist, one of the few licensed sex therapists in all of Mormonism. And she has been a partner in the Open Stories foundation since very early on. She runs Mormon Mental Health Podcast. She's the founder of the Mormon Mental Health association along with others. She is amazing and a friend and a friend and a dear friend. And our family may or may not have consulted her in the past when there have been things to consult.

9:55 Natasha Helfer Parker Oh, Mylanta.

9:58 John Dehlin So broadcasting to you live today from Wichita, Kansas, the one, the only, Natasha Alpha Parker. Welcome back to Mormon Stories.

10:09 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, thank you. That was quite the introduction. Thank you. And you are dear friends. I love you both.

10:16 John Dehlin I feel like I should say let's get ready to rumble. Oh, wait, that's a different context.

10:21 Natasha Helfer Parker Okay, so that's for our next sex podcast, John.

10:25 John Dehlin Yes, that's for the. Yes. As if we haven't done enough. So, Natasha, tell us just really briefly, what did I leave out of the introduction that you would want to share with our audience?

10:36 Natasha Helfer Parker Just to add to the announcements. So Dan Weatherspoon and I will be doing a retreat in Salt Lake City area for those who are trying to navigate church life in some kind of nuanced way, whether you're traditional believer or more of a nuanced or like I like to call myself an abstract believer. So that will be July 14th through 16th. And then I would just always plug my Mormon sex info podcast and also my online practice symmetry solutions. So that's all

11:14 John Dehlin beautiful. We'll make sure and add that to our list of announcements. I just added it here to the show notes for this episode, but we will make sure and add that to our ongoing episode list. So that's exciting. That's the second time you guys have done a retreat for people staying in the church and trying to make it work. And I think that's an important audience. So we're really glad you and Dan are doing that. And we'll do our best to get registration info up. Is registration info up on that yet, Natasha?

11:43 Natasha Helfer Parker I believe it's going up on Wednesday tomorrow, so we'll be starting to advertise that more directly.

11:49 John Dehlin Excellent. All right, well, last week we covered a Lot of topics around healthy relationships. I'm not going to recap them now. If you want to hear some awesome thoughts and discussions about healthy marriage, tune into episode one, which should be immediately preceding this episode. And now we're going to move on to a whole other set of topics. And I just want to say that we want to invite. One of the reasons we do live podcast interviews is so that people will share their questions and comments, and then we can incorporate them. So it's a bit more dynamic, a little bit more real time, a little bit more interactive. So those of you listening, we know who you are. Actually, we don't, but there's 56 of you right now that Facebook tells me are tuned in. Unless you have perfect marriages, please post comments or questions or scenarios and give us a chance to jump in and to sort of prime the pump, so to speak. I'm going to go ahead and read one that has been sent in. And before we jump into our topics, we're just going to. We're just going to dive in. So, Natasha, here is one for you. You ready?

13:01 Natasha Helfer Parker I'm ready.

13:02 John Dehlin All right. Maintaining a healthy marriage. This is from Julie. Maintaining a healthy marriage is the most important thing for my husband and I. But I feel like my parents blame my husband for us leaving. I feel like they would rather I leave him than leave the church, which is awful. How do you create positive communication and protect your marriage when parents, siblings, and extended family are trying to place blame? Natasha, help. Julie. Julie needs your help.

13:37 Natasha Helfer Parker Wow. Yeah. So this is not so much necessarily marital relationships as extended family relationships, which are very much a part of every marriage. And interesting how I oftentimes go back to the very biblical advice around this. Right. Which is kind of like parents, butt out.

13:56 John Dehlin And what's the chapter and verse on that?

13:59 Natasha Helfer Parker You're expecting me to know that?

14:01 John Dehlin I just like that butt out. Butt out.

14:04 Natasha Helfer Parker It's the butt out scripture. You know that one. But there is something. There's something very poetic and beautiful about. I think it's an exodus or something about this cleaving unto one another as a spousal unit, which implies this idea that we are now our own unit, and extended family is supposed to honor that. Now, obviously, extended family can be a great support system. It can be a great resource at times. It can be an entity that steps in and offers maybe some opinions, for example, domestic violence cases or where there's really some unhealthy patterns going in. I think it's always important for extended family to be willing to at least speak up and share concerns and obviously offer support in whatever way they can. But this idea that they are somehow going to tell you whether or not you should stay married, tell you this is what I would do if I was in your position. It's oftentimes what family and friends most often do when you go to them with marital problems or when they perceive marital problems. And this is very typical. It's very well intentioned. They usually really do believe they're right and believe that their thoughts are best for your positions. But it's an overstep and unfortunately, most family members and friends haven't necessarily gone to what I would call validation school, which is mostly what you're supposed to be doing. If somebody's coming to you with marriage issues, you're not necessarily supposed to just fix it and provide a solution. And now people will make decisions based on solutions you've provided that can really be lifelong lasting. I think the most tragic thing, and I'm sure you and Julie will talk a lot about this as you do your mixed faith marriage retreat is there's nothing doctrinal about this. This is what just blows my mind. There's nothing doctrinal about the idea that if you have a spouse who loses their faith or goes on a different journey spiritually than you, that that's somehow justification or a reason to leave your marriage. In fact, I'm 99% sure and I don't know again which scripture it is, but there is a scripture somewhere that says you're actually not supposed to leave a spouse for those reasons. So it's really sad to me when the family values that we espouse so much within Mormonism kind of go under the radar when it comes to this particular issue, which I think is very culturally interesting, I guess, is how I would call that. As far as how to go from here, some things that I would may recommend is really find your common language with your extended family, really find your common values. And so it can be this combination of a validation approach and also a setting boundaries approach. I'm going to role model a little bit of this right now. So in the words, mom, dad, I hear your pain. Validation, right? It seems to me like it's really hard for the two of you to see us struggling with this spiritual change in our lives, especially since you perceive that it's more from my spouse and that maybe he's influencing me. And everything that you've taught me. Right. And everything that you believe we're questioning. And that must be really painful. And at some level Even though I'm not in your shoes, I can really kind of get that. And I'm so sorry that our situation is causing you this pain. That is all validation. You don't have to agree with anything that they're doing to be able to offer something along those lines. Now it's boundary setting time, right? And even though I appreciate your advice, and even though I appreciate your love and concern for us, some of the things that you're saying to us is causing us a problem. And I'm going to need for that to stop. I'm going to need for you to not tell me that I should be leaving my husband. If that can't stop, if he can't stop doing that, then I'm going to have to figure out different ways to communicate with you. Because at this particular time, that's just not going to be what I need to help me at a very difficult time to figure out what I'm going to negotiate with my marriage. So I'm hoping that you can honor that boundary. Now I'm going to shared values talk. So you taught me the importance of marriage. You taught me Mormonism, taught me, you know, speak your common language. Mormonism. Like, one of the things I love about my Mormon journey was how much it talked about families and the family structure and how vows that we took are really important and promises and covenants. And even if these words trigger you and you don't normally use them anymore, you can use them with your family. They mean things to them. Right? And so these are promises that I made. And I knew the part, you taught me that part of the deal when I got married was going to be negotiation and compromise and it was going to be hard work and that we wouldn't know all the things that would come our way and the problems that we would face. So this is one of our challenges. And I plan to stick to my Mormon values or the values that you taught me in trying to work this, you know, this thing out with my husband. And I hope that you honor that. So that was a nice kind of sandwich approach, right? Because you start with validation, the nice soft, fluffy bread. You put the meat in the middle, which is the boundaries and kind of your firmness and what you're wanting and asking for in return. And then you finish with the warm, fuzzy bread of shared language. And thank you for teaching me these values. And you really played a significant role in my life and why I'm choosing some of this path that you may not totally understand or agree with. And whether that values Honesty or authenticity or family. Or again, we have many shared values still with our extended family.

20:40 John Dehlin Love it.

20:41 Margi Dehlin Love that.

20:42 John Dehlin Love the role playing. And actually, Holly writes in I love this role playing, Natasha. This really helps a lot. So we love it. Holly loves it. I think other listeners are loving it, too. Lots of people have joined us. It's fun to see Steve and Kimberly and Mark and Julie and all sorts of people joining us live. So please keep these questions and comments coming. It's really good. Paulette actually tried to give us a little bit of scriptural support. She kind of. Paulette wrote, when you get married, you leave behind the things of childhood. You leave your parents home and authority over you and quote, cleave only unto and go whither she he goest. I think there she's quoting Ruth there. I think she's also quoting some doctrine and covenants. So, Paulette, thank you for the scriptural support, and that was good, Natasha. So thank you for helping out with that question. All right, so we have several fun things we're going to cover today, and again, we'll stop and pause and interject listener questions or comments as soon as they come in. But, Natasha, one of the presentations you like to do is around the common myths of marriage, and I think you referred to these last episode a little bit. But why don't you just refresh us really quick on the common myths, just so that. And we won't go into them in any depth, but remind us what the common myths are that you like to talk about.

22:12 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

22:12 Natasha Helfer Parker And this is by no means all inclusive even of what I talk about, but just some of the common ones are, you belong to me, I belong to you. You know, in other words, this ownership that we sometimes fall into in marital relationship where. Which I think is confused with the idea of compromise. So I think we sometimes confuse the idea of compromise with this idea that you should never do anything that I would be uncomfortable with. And therefore, it's a permission type of relationship. And it also can play into a lot of authority, power struggles within a couple. And so I think that that's an important myth to challenge, and it's one that's been kind of in our Westernized culture. It's not just a Mormon myth. I think that another myth is this idea that I should be the object of your full affection. And that mainly what that means is that I get like 100% of my needs met through you. And so that's a very unrealistic expectation for any marriage, even the healthiest of marriages. That's not happening. And so even though obviously your marriage is a place where you do get a lot of your needs met and oftentimes very differently than in other relationships, shared intimacy, obviously in marriage, that is unique to marriage, but it's not necessarily going to 100% take care of all of your needs. And so when we deal with this disappointment and sadness that comes with not having all of our needs met through that other person, then we fall into meaning ruts, what I call meaning ruts. Right. So you don't love me. I'm not good enough. You're not good enough. I'm to blame. You're to blame. And we get into these classic kind of either I you blame patterns, which can be really damaging and may not be really based in much evidence at all. So it's like a cognitive distortion, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think that another one is this idea that this is more of a sexual one, but that the more intimacy and respect and friendship we have, the better off our sex life will be. And this is a big myth. So this is actually not really true at all. For some people it works out that way. But I know wonderful, wonderful couples that just have deep friendships, deep respect, and are struggling significantly in their sex lives together and are very confused by that because again, since they bought into that myth, they go back to there must be something wrong usually with me, because in those types of relationships, they love each other, they're not blaming each other usually very much so very self beating up type of relationships. And I know people who have like really toxic, like I'm scared of them when they come in my office and I'm thinking, do I need to use the mace on them? Or, you know, do I have Valium in my water? So I start wondering how I'm going to get them to settle down. And they're reporting like super hot sex. Right. So they're a passionate couple. I mean, they're passionate and telling each other to F off. And they're also passionate and effing each other too. Right. So trying to keep my language somewhat decent for your show. So that does it. But that doesn't mean that they're having, you know, high levels of intimacy or, you know, able to emotionally regulate very well in their relationship together. So that's another myth and probably the last one I'll just touch on. So I just don't keep on talking for the two hours. Of the myths I could talk about is, you know, men want sex more and women want emotion more. And that's a misnomer so that more and more the research is coming out to show that there are many women who are unsatisfied with if frequency of sex in their marriages. And this idea that men are somehow less emotional than women or don't have emotional needs is also very convoluted and keeps us polarized in ways where we talk in general about this whole men are from Mars and women are from Venus. And it's a very polarizing way to stereotypically wide brush issues that are much more complex than. And that. And that really, I think, sell both partners short. So we're. We're all sexual in one way or another, we're all emotional in one way or another, and we're all logical in one way or another. And those things play out in our relationships in different ways for different reasons. So don't buy into those stereotypes.

27:04 Margi Dehlin Great.

27:04 John Dehlin Beautiful. So just for repetition sake, repeat the myths one last time.

27:09 Natasha Helfer Parker You're asking me to repeat what I pulled out of my head. Okay. I belong to you, you belong to me. Therefore, there's some type of ownership.

27:19 John Dehlin What's a better way to. What's a better way to say that? What's a people ownership? Each owns their own life, so to speak.

27:27 Natasha Helfer Parker Oh, what would be the reality, you mean?

27:29 John Dehlin Yeah. What would be a better.

27:31 Margi Dehlin Yes.

27:31 Natasha Helfer Parker I think the counter to that is I belong to me and you belong to you. And I'm choosing to share myself with you in very significant ways. And the more that we're able to be vulnerable and the more that it goes well when we're intimate with one another, the more that grows over time, and that's exciting. And there's times when I'm not going to be happy with your behavior or uncomfortable with your ideas or thoughts. That. That doesn't need to challenge necessarily who I am, and it doesn't have to challenge the way I feel about you in regards to our marital contract.

28:08 John Dehlin Okay. We belong to ourselves, but we engage intently in this relationship.

28:15 Natasha Helfer Parker Right.

28:16 John Dehlin What's the second myth shoot?

28:19 Natasha Helfer Parker Was the second the needs?

28:21 Margi Dehlin Yeah. That you're going to fulfill your needs 100% with one person.

28:26 Natasha Helfer Parker I better come with bullet points next time,

28:32 Margi Dehlin which.

28:32 Natasha Helfer Parker I loved you, John, because you helped me be more bullet oriented. I hope I help you be more abstract oriented. You help me be more bullet.

28:40 Margi Dehlin So let's just reframe this because I'm uncomfortable with making you uncomfortable. We'll just select a few of the things you mentioned and then we'll expand on, like, maybe a healthier way to think about. Okay. Right.

28:53 Natasha Helfer Parker No, that's fine.

28:54 Margi Dehlin Is 100% like you fulfill my needs in one.

28:58 John Dehlin Yeah. And if any, if any listener is listening and can list out the bullets that Natasha said, we're going to give them a bonus. Okay, go ahead, Natasha and the listeners will help us out.

29:09 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah, that will help us with. Is that dementia testing or something that you can repeat? So yeah, the needs one obviously is like, okay, if I'm getting a majority of my needs met in this relationship and when I'm talking about needs, we're talking about briefly like emotional needs, intellectual needs, spiritual needs and physical needs, that's how I break them out. It's not like some major list. Anybody can come up with their own list. And by spiritual I mean like moral, ethical needs, you know, spirituality, how we're going to live, how we're going to be empowered by and enlightened by things. Intellectual needs. I mean like, do we have things in common, hobbies, interests, can we talk about politics or the current events or things that interest us both, or are we just staring at each other across the way at dinner and not really know what to say to each other anymore? Emotional needs is, you know, do. Are we able to share with each other how we feel, how our day is going, how we, you know, our dreams, our kind of, our ideas about life. And if I emote myself as a it safe to do that in whatever way I email with you and vice versa. And of course physical is sexual, but also affection and holding hands and massage and just how do we generally relate with our bodies with one another? It doesn't all have to be about sex, obviously. So that's a general thing. So instead of feeling like all of those needs are going to be met by one particular person. If I always tell my couples, you know, 65 to 75% of your needs are being met in any one of those particular areas, you can feel pretty good about that. And you can get your needs met also through other resources in your life, whether that's community or family or solo things that people do on their own. Self soothing techniques, for example, or self hobbies. The one that's probably most challenging to most marriages is the physical one because it's not like we have sex clubs we can go to. Well, we do have them, but most people don't engage in. Well, instead of going to the book club tonight to get my needs met, I'm going to go to the sex club and get my needs met there. Since you're not in the mood. Right. So it's a little more challenging in the sexual field.

31:40 John Dehlin Chelsea just wrote, natasha is one of my favorite people I've ever met. Oh,

31:46 Natasha Helfer Parker loves Chelsea.

31:48 Margi Dehlin We get it.

31:49 Natasha Helfer Parker That's what we say. We get that.

31:51 John Dehlin Okay, this is good. All right, so we have another. I'm just going to keep reinforcing those who are submitting questions or comments either through the Facebook live stream or by emailing us@mormonstoriesmail.com so instead of just going through our bulleted list, I'm going to read the next. I'm going to read the next question because. So this is from an anonymous email. How do we break the cycle of judgment and Mormon expectations for a spouse after both have left the faith? Mormonism caused harsh judgment on what being a faithful wife means and what being a worthy priesthood holder means. Not in the aspect of fidelity, but more so holding each other at such a high standard. And also the roles given in the church. A man being the breadwinner and the woman being the stay at home, happy mother. So, Margi, I'm gonna throw this to you first.

32:49 Margi Dehlin Okay.

32:51 John Dehlin How do we break the cycle of judgment and Mormon expectations for a spouse after both have left the faith? And then, Natasha, we'll bring you in.

33:00 Margi Dehlin So I'm wondering if the to if the people involved are on the same page or if one is out and one is in. But what I would say is I love.

33:12 John Dehlin Actually, let's assume both are out.

33:14 Margi Dehlin Both are out.

33:15 John Dehlin Yeah. Still got the Mormon brain of judgment and roles and expectations.

33:19 Margi Dehlin So actually one of the things we were going to discuss today plays a little bit into this in a positive way.

33:25 John Dehlin Let's pull it in.

33:26 Margi Dehlin Because it talks about one of the positive principles to strong marriages is meaning, creating meaning with one another. And so I feel like sometimes when things stop working or we come to a place of renegotiation in marriage, there's this opportunity to recreate something that will be more apt and suitable with the place where you are. And so that's what I would say is maybe this could be a great time of reflection where you both come together and say, hey, you know, what do we want in our life together and do we have these expectations for one another and what do they look like? And upon reflection and really discussing, do they seem healthy for us now and do they suit and really maybe get to a place of creating an understanding where one another, where you both kind of stand and desire what you desire now and see if you can't pull together a vision that represents and reflects both of you in a current place with you sharing some of Those things, what I like about that is that it allows for growth. It allows for this expansion and this. Oh, what would I say? Where you are truly being thoughtful about your own life and creating a marriage that reflects you and your values for now. So that's what I would say.

35:04 John Dehlin So I like to restate, just for fun. It sounds like what you're saying is, don't stay and remain in the vacuum of sort of post Mormonism. Bring a deliberateness to your relationship, to your roles, to the life you want to live, even enumerate your common values, what your expectations are or aren't. And some of those values may be lowering expectations. They may be chilling out and relaxing and not being so judgmental or uptight. And through more intentionality, you can, you know, this couple can move to a place where they're a lot less uptight, a lot less judgy, a lot less stressed out and more following their values of, for example, being calm or relaxed or flexible. Is that what you're saying?

35:56 Margi Dehlin That is exactly what I'm saying.

35:58 John Dehlin All right, Natasha, what would you add?

36:02 Natasha Helfer Parker You guys kind of crack me up, by the way, in a good way.

36:09 Margi Dehlin Do you make communication live and real?

36:12 Natasha Helfer Parker That's right. Validation, communication, listening skills.

36:18 Margi Dehlin Yeah. So what would you add? What would you say?

36:20 Natasha Helfer Parker All right, so I think that. Well, I have a lot of thoughts is both the question and from what you shared, which I totally agree with. Nothing I would challenge there, for sure. I think one of the tasks of going through a faith transition, and with as long as I've been doing this work, I really have thought through a lot of the different tasks that I think of. Faith transition requires kind of like taking a developmental model to this idea of a faith transition. And one of those tasks is redefining your values. And so we talked about that last time about going through this exercise where you can really start brainstorming about, what are my values now? Taking back your authority, right, from this very prescribed system, which we were all a part of, and not that everything that system is bad. There's lots of great values that we grew up with as Mormons. It's kind of like picking from that what we want to keep. I love Carolyn Pearson's pioneer type of poetry, right, where she talks about leaving the things that no longer serve us, but putting back in the cart the things that still serve us and moving forward from there. So you can do a lot of that work. And what I like, too, about that is it's now ongoing. It's not fixed. So to your point, Margi, it's something you should revisit often. It's not something that now I have my new manual, and now I'm stuck with that manual and I can't move from it. It's like, this is what I believe now with the idea that that could shift two to three to ten years from now as well. So this is an ongoing process. I think another task is obviously recontracting your marriage and not that marriages were ever really contracted to begin with. But we come to marriage with a lot of assumptions about a lot of these things. Gender roles, expectations, who should do what. And sometimes those things fit really well. Some households manage themselves very well with very structured systems. And as you're moving away from Mormonism, sometimes that can feel like, well, I now consider myself a feminist. Does that mean what does that mean for my role as a stay at home mother, for example? Right. Or I now consider myself an LGBT ally. How does that support my ideas about how I'm relating with my mixed orientation spouse marriage? So all of these very complex things that now actually bring what I love, which is ethics. Ethics, okay? So I think sometimes in Mormonism, we forget that religion is bound with ethics. We're so focused on following the laws and the rules that we forget that every interesting story in the scripture is an ethical dilemma. And it requires us to look at rules and look at exceptions to the rules. And when do you follow the rule and when do you not? And how does that fit into my personal story in life? That's what makes a scripture story interesting. So I think we can take a lot of that to these tasks. What I would add to that is this idea that it's going to take patience and time to shift. And I would give the idea of a code word, because you'll catch each other. You'll catch each other either being too patriarchal or being too obedience focused or these kinds of things. And instead of being really grumpy at each other and pointing those out in really blame shaming ways, you can may come up with a code word. And this is Gottman's principle of influencing each other, allowing your spouse to influence you so that you can now inject humor. So if your code word is like white salamander, right? Or red flamingo or whatever, it can be Mormon or not Mormon or self. And you can kind of give it with a wink and kind of like a little smirky, flirtatious look. All of a sudden you've injected humor into a difficult situation. Like, hey, I'm catching you in our old Habits that we just had a conversation about a month ago or two weeks ago that we both agreed on. We don't want to do that, but we understand that we're creatures of habit and that doesn't. Is going to take time. So I'm kind of lovingly and with humor calling you out on that. And it doesn't have to turn into a much bigger deal than that. So I don't think this is a tangent, but I do want to touch on this because this is something that just came up for me like three times this week with couples. And I've been thinking a lot about it. This idea of moving away from Mormonism. First of all, I want to say it's not everything in Mormonism was bad. So we don't want to get super black and white about that. We like black and white. Just because you're no longer Mormon or consider yourself a transitioning Mormon, there's still a lot of black and white about us. And so I've seen this both in the sexual shame and I've seen this both in what I call like feminist shame. And what I mean by feminist shame is this idea that how can I be a woman and have put up with all of this ways that I was, you know, a subordinate in the system for so long when I considered myself intellectual and smart and witty and, you know, capable. How did I put up with that for so long? So those two areas come with a lot of pain. A lot of pain. And when people start understanding how shame affected them both either sexually or in these kind of gender roles, feminist attributes, there's a lot of anger and there's a lot of betrayal and there's a lot of grief work that needs to go into how their whole lives were affected by those types of ideas. Well, guess who gets the brunt of that day to day? Your spouse. Because you are in patterns with that spouse that may or may not be part of that shame, you know, kind of rhetoric. So if your spouse, for example, isn't comfortable with you looking at pornography, right. Or your spouse is still calling you sweetie, Well, like Markie just role modeled.

42:53 John Dehlin So.

42:53 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, after the fourth sweet comment from John is, you know, hey, I'm more than just, it's okay to call me sweet, but let's not be the only way that you describe me, right? And so that those are, those are kind of some examples of we can still have our own feelings and systems and discomforts and boundaries and betrayals within our own marriage that need to be worked out with some sort of Grace period. That separates it from the work we need to do with the church. Because oftentimes I see these kind of ultimatums, like, well, I was sexually shamed by the church for 50 years. I'm not gonna allow you to do that to me anymore. You know, so you need to be okay with anything I want to do sexually. That's not necessarily. Like, this is okay to deal with this, but that's not necessarily how it's going to be realistic to deal with your spouse. Or I'm so sick of being treated like a subordinate. You can no longer ever make a decision in my life again. Or I need to be completely independent, make all the decisions. Right. So we take these very polarized approaches to very hurtful issues that have affected most of us. So I just want to caution couples around those dynamics.

44:15 Margi Dehlin Yeah, very wise. Very wise.

44:19 John Dehlin I'll try and chill out on the.

44:21 Margi Dehlin Sweetie, you added other adjectives. It was awesome. Nice job. Okay.

44:27 John Dehlin You call me sweetie.

44:28 Margi Dehlin I do. Among other things.

44:33 John Dehlin All right, so now that we've talked about some of the common myths, Margi wanted to begin with maybe just a few sort of. Let's just call them positive principles to enhance marriage. And the first one that Margi brought up was cultivate friendship. And this is something that I think when Gottman really boils down. So this is. Yeah, one of our favorite books, the seven principles of making marriage work by John Gottman. There it is. PhD. It seems like the main thing he says to sort of focus on to have a healthy marriage is to really focus on becoming best friends, close friends, to really connect and cultivate that friendship. Because just think about it for a second. If something good happens to you and the very first person you want to call to tell instinctively is your partner, or if something terrible happens, and the first person you want to vent and share with is your partner. And if you've got some free time and the first person you want to hang out with is your partner because they're the person you enjoy the most. You know, those things aren't always required to have a healthy marriage, but they're probably a good sign that you have a good relationship and that you're doing something right. So, Margi, talk about cultivating friendships for a second.

45:58 Margi Dehlin Sure. Okay. So a couple of the first principles that John Gottman kind of begins the book with are the idea of enhancing your love map. That's kind of the name of the chapter and the basic idea behind this. I believe, actually in the chapter, he has questions that you can answer or ask each Other to sort of get this idea of, you know, how well you know your partner and they have kind of deep questions and not so deep questions and current questions and things kind of from the past. But it's this great way to connect in a deeper way with your spouse on sort of this friendship level. And I feel like kind of the basic idea behind it, among, I mean, amidst other things, would be that knowing your partner well strengthens your marriage. I mean, what you know, well, in the end it allows for you to understand better, to have context, to show generosity and trust a bit more. And so, yeah, that's one of the first principles is enhance your love map.

47:05 John Dehlin Enhance your love map. Anything to add to that, Natasha?

47:09 Natasha Helfer Parker No, I love that description. I think it's just really, do you know the details of your partner's life? Are you intimately involved in the day to day? And this is something that we do a lot when we're dating. Right. It's kind of a natural get to know you, process and then life gets in the way. Right. So kids and finances and stressors. And so we kind of tend that we think we still know each other, but we're changing all along the way. And so it's really important to figure these out these things out and still talk to each other on a regular basis. Great activity for date night. So.

47:41 John Dehlin Yeah, love it. Okay, the next one is nurture kindness and admiration. What might that be?

47:50 Margi Dehlin Yeah, so I think this is maybe the second sort of chapter, but I think it goes along with sort of the friendship idea. Do you ever notice with couples, and I've noticed even with us, there are times when you slip into more of a business model, life kind of gets busy and your conversations tend to start reflecting that of what needs to be done for the day. And so I love the idea of nurturing kindness and admiration as sort of a daily, a daily practice, something that you're kind of aware of. So an idea behind this too is one of the enemies or one of the major obstacles to a healthy marriage is contempt. And that's another reason why I think there's this focus on kindness and respect and admiration is it's very hard to show contempt, which is like, you know, this level of like condescension, disrespect, when you're really connected to your spouse in this way on it on a daily basis. And so one idea I remember from the chapter was this idea of looking for positives, right. On a daily basis. And most people think, oh, what I'm doing is I'm really focusing on the positives. So I'm going to see my relationship in this really positive way. But what John Gottman asserts is actually by looking for the positives, you're seeing your marriage in a more realistic way. Because as human beings, what we naturally tend to do is see the things that are going wrong. We tend to be critical and notice those things that are off. So that idea of being positive on a daily level, being grateful, appreciating our spouse on these things, actually allows for

49:37 Natasha Helfer Parker the set point or what we see

49:39 Margi Dehlin to be a more accurate reflection than otherwise it would be. And then there are other ideas, like the emotional bank account. I feel like that's kind of a common concept, but that on a daily basis kind of falls under the nurture, kindness and admiration.

49:54 John Dehlin Make sure you're making more credit deposits than withdraws from the emotional bank account.

50:00 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Just really looking at each other like the closest people. We're gonna take care of them and treat them really well, you know, on a daily basis with kindness and admiration.

50:11 John Dehlin Yeah. And I. If I'm just thinking to our relationship, Margi is super good. You're really good at doing nurturing things. So Margi will, you know, just every once in a while, she'll bring me down a lunch or a snack or she'll remind me to take my vitamins, you know, something I want to do. Sometimes she'll just say, lie down right now on the couch and I'm giving you a three minute massage. And she'll just do it. And it's really nice when Margi's nurturing just because it makes us have more tender feelings towards each other. Then again, like you said, just always being business minded and sort of getting through the day in a mechanical way. Yeah. And I'm trying to be more nurturing.

50:55 Natasha Helfer Parker Yes.

50:55 Margi Dehlin Well, let me answer that bid. I feel like that was a bid. You're very nurturing. So some ways that John is nurturing me are that I oftentimes have a hard time settling down at the end of day. And you'll do my back. He scratches my back before I go to sleep every night. Or I really love this certain type of chocolate in Cache Valley. Chocolate makers.

51:19 John Dehlin Dark dark chocolate covered orange creams. If you ever want to get on Margi's good list. Alvy's dark chocolate orange.

51:30 Margi Dehlin They don't sound amazing, but they are amazing. They are. So anyway, he'll run out and get me chocolates just because. Or I mean, really, honestly, it's like doing the dishes after dinner or. I mean, it's really not anything extravagant, but it's being aware of each other and kind of doing those small things to show that awareness and that kindness and, you know, admiration for one another. Natasha, did you have anything to say about that?

52:00 Natasha Helfer Parker I will just add. So to understand a little bit of the evolutionary theory or biology behind some of this and why this is important, as far as what you're talking about, how we pay attention to negatives versus positives, we are wired to pick out the negatives because that's a defense mechanism. Right. So imagine back in the day, or when you think of a deer in the middle of the field, the deer is not so much attuned to all the grass. I mean, it's eating the grass. But what it's really attuned to is the danger signal. Right. Because as soon as there's a snap of a twig or any little tiny thing, it's gonna make a run for it because its life depends on it. So we're somewhat similar. And why it's so easy to fall into this habit of figuring out all the negatives, and then we become very catastrophic in our thinking. We forget the evidence on the other side. Again, the red tulip is easier to pick out in the yellow field, and it is important to be mindful and intentional about remembering the many positives that our partner has. Another thought I had was, it's very easy to know what we want and to feel sad that we're not getting what we want. Oftentimes, my biggest challenges to myself have been, am I offering what I want? And sadly, my evaluation of that has not gone as well as I would like to think it would go. So, you know, I don't want to be judged. I don't want to be controlled. You know, I don't want somebody to expect certain things of me or to see my failures in a certain way. But it's much easier for me to not necessarily offer that in return to my spouse. And so that's, you know, am I. Am I offering what I would like to receive? Sometimes. Sometimes people are. And there's just a difference in, I think, emotional intelligence or in skills as far as. So there are legitimate ways that sometimes people offer things that they don't necessarily get back. And that's kind of a different issue. But I think, in general, we could all use that mantra a little bit. Yeah. One last thing. I'll say just to wrap up the friendship idea, because I love the friendship idea, but I've always got a kind of keep it a little real. And this is the idea that friends. You don't have sex with your best friend. Usually when you think about. When you think about your friend that you grew up with that was like your best friend, most people did not fall in love with that person. Okay. So friendship is not always super erotic. So we, yes, we want a level of friendship. We want a level of respect, obviously, in a marriage. And this kind of goes to Esther Perel's work where she's really got some good language to be able to talk about. We all want stability, which is kind of friendship. You know, your friend. You can count on your friend. Count on me. Right. The classic friend song is all about, you can count on me. I'm there, I'm dependable, not super sexy. We also want mystery and eroticism. Yeah. So it is important if you're building. You should be building most of your foundation on a friendship to keep it a little exciting and erotic, also by creating some mystery in your relationship. And to. Not always. I'm always a little cringy when I'm like, I'm marrying my best friend. And I'm sorry, I really don't want to judge anybody who thinks that's really important. I just don't want it to be all about friendship.

55:46 Margi Dehlin Sure.

55:46 Natasha Helfer Parker I've got a lot of best friends I would never have sex with.

55:50 Margi Dehlin Got it.

55:50 John Dehlin How many?

55:53 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, you are one of them. John, you are one of my best friends that I'm not planning on having sex with.

55:58 John Dehlin And Margi, see how she said no plans?

56:01 Natasha Helfer Parker She is planning no plans.

56:04 Margi Dehlin That's the mystery part.

56:06 Natasha Helfer Parker You're not fitting my erotic template, you guys.

56:09 Margi Dehlin I'm sorry. Sorry. So what I was going to ask you then, just as a quick follow up, is, so what would that look like? What does the mystery component? Is that the element of surprise? Is that. What is the mystery component within a relationship? Let's say the foundation is healthy communication. And what we're talking about, like the friendship is sort of a base. But you want a little mystery, Right?

56:34 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, I do think that obviously some of this can. Can be just planned, like surprising your partner with things. But I think it can go a little bit deeper than that in that I'm not sure that my husband knows every single thing about me or every single thought about me. And I'm perfectly comfortable with that and vice versa. And I think sometimes, especially coming from our Mormon culture and with our values being so much about honesty and transparency and Bishop's interviews where they ask you all these questions and you're supposed to answer Everything. We forget that we have a right to our own personal privacy. And even in my marriage and even with my friendship with my spouse, I'm somewhat private as well. And that's okay.

57:21 Margi Dehlin I love that. And it kind of reminds me a little bit of differentiation in that you're both out in the world pursuing your own lives as well and your own and I think being changed and hopefully developing and growing and then you come and you return back to one another at the end of day. And there are certain things that are reflected in the relationship of those things that you've seen and done. I think it adds oxygen, really, to a relationship and others may not. And I just love that idea of, I don't know, that we're our own entities too. And it takes away that ownership kind of part. Like, I know John, I know him, I could tell you. Versus, like allowing for a little bit of. Yeah, you know.

58:06 Natasha Helfer Parker Exactly. It does go back to that myth, I own you and therefore I own all your information, or you're somehow being deceitful if you don't share every single detail of your life with me. And. Yeah, exactly.

58:21 John Dehlin All right, let's check in with our live listeners. Jayna wants to remind us not only of Alvy's chocolates, but of Bluebird chocolates in Logan. That's true. We like Alvies more than Bluebird. Right.

58:34 Margi Dehlin Well, with this particular chocolate, yes.

58:36 John Dehlin But, yes, Jaina, thank you for the reminder about Bluebird chocolates.

58:41 Natasha Helfer Parker That was very mysterious of you, Margi, by the way. I am so mysterious.

58:48 John Dehlin Jana also writes, oh, Natasha, you are so great laughing about that comment from John and Margi not fitting in your erotic zone.

58:57 Natasha Helfer Parker We don't.

58:58 Margi Dehlin What?

58:59 Natasha Helfer Parker I'm sorry if that's offensive. If I fit into yours, I'd like to know.

59:05 John Dehlin You left Margi out of your comment about.

59:09 Natasha Helfer Parker About erotica. No, actually I did include her. John, I don't know what you're trying to push here, but I'm on you.

59:15 John Dehlin It was both of us. Two other comments or questions coming in. Natasha, I'm curious how you would respond. Joyce writes, in multiple decades of marriage, lowering expectations leads to less disappointment. She talks about, you know, maybe a spouse could be emotionally stifled, for example, and maybe if you lower your expectations, you're a little less sad all the time. What would your response to Joyce beyond that?

59:47 Natasha Helfer Parker I agree with that. I think that's a very wise thing to say. You have to remember, for example, I've worked a lot with high level autism, high spectrum autism, folks that usually get dragged into therapy by A very sad, disappointed spouse. They usually connect very well. Intellectual intimacy is usually high in that type of partnership. If they're, you know, if they come from Mormonism, spiritual intimacy can be high just because they share a religion and kind of a lifestyle. Physical intimacy can be a really mixed bag for high level autistic people. And emotional intimacy is usually not super great. So, yes, each person comes with their own skill set. We come with our own baggage. We come with our own family culture. We come with things that we're good at and things that we're not as great at. Hopefully most of us are willing to step into discomfort at some level to help our spouse feel like their needs are being met a little bit more than they would organically be met. However, at the basis of marital therapy, when it comes for me to an individual is, if your partner stayed as is, never changed, what would you do then? Because then it really comes back to the only thing that you can control, which is yourself. And it sounds like this particular person dealt with that question by saying, well, I might lower some of my expectations by doing that. Now we have more marital accord. Maybe she's getting some of her needs met in other areas of her life with other people or other things, you know, interests and the general, you know, again, how, how much is this relationship still worth it to me? Now some people get to that question and kind of like what we talked about last time too. They'll say, well, that's a deal breaker for me. That's not sustainable for me to be able to live in this type of environment. And that's a legitimate exploration as well. So these are all explorations.

1:01:59 John Dehlin Yeah. Love it. All right, another email that came in. Again, email us@mormonstoriesmail.com this person messaged me through the Mormon Stories podcast Facebook page. She writes, this is for Natasha. Do you see a connection with the LDS Church and narcissism? She writes that she sees narcissistic traits in her husband. After 15 years of feeling crazy, she says, I can see that it all adds up. Now it makes sense. I feel like I can't have a relationship with the church because of its own narcissism. Can I have a relationship with my husband or will I always feel this trapped like I did with the church? I had to get away from it. I am afraid I won't be able to live with my husband without always feeling sad and crazy. Is there help for a semi narcissistic man and a faith crisis in a woman creating a mixed faith marriage? Can we survive all right, Natasha, the heat's on you. Is the Mormon Church narcissistic?

1:03:08 Natasha Helfer Parker Narcissistic.

1:03:09 John Dehlin Can this person's marriage survive with a semi narcissistic husband?

1:03:14 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, many marriages do survive with all kinds of different personality disorders. So yes, it can. It's challenging. And of course, these types of. I have a love hate relationship with personality disorders, on the one hand, diagnosis, yes. The diagnoses, on the one hand, they can be extremely helpful, especially for people who are living with somebody who is chronically difficult and toxic in their family system to be like, oh, we weren't all crazy. There are actual criteria here and person seems to meet a lot of these criteria, et cetera. At the same time, I do believe we throw out these words kind of like candy, like we do with a lot of words. Addiction and depression and anxiety and ocd even. I mean, there's a big difference between having a trait or having a stereotype versus having a full blown disorder. Now, the church, yes, the church has some unhealthy cultural parameters, for sure, and it is acting in very relationally unhealthy ways with its members. It's very authoritarian, it's very obedience focused. It treats us all like we're chronically adolescent in our developmental stage. And it allows for, you know, it's my way or the highway, which is oftentimes how personality disorders, you know, play out. So there's a lot of rigidity. Would I diagnose the church with narcissistic personality disorder? I don't know about that. Are there traits? Yes. And one of the things that I actually really liked about the changes in the DSM 5, which is our mental health bible per se, is that they are moving towards the possibility of, instead of saying, yes, you have a personality disorder, no, you don't. It's a yes or no. It's more of like a spectrum. So that you might have some traits, mild traits, moderate traits, severe traits. Because I think most of us can read through a personality disorder diagnosis criteria and we would all fit in probably each one at some very small amount at least if that makes sense. So we want to be careful with throwing around these words. This is a tough one in patriarchy, because I do believe the guest is correct and that narcissism in men or narcissistic traits and men can be rewarded in our LDS system. So that idea of power and I'm important and I'm correct and I have the priesthood and therefore I, you know, what I say goes, and I'm important and grandiose. And all those types of issues that come with narcissism can definitely be played into by the LDS culture. The LDS culture isn't necessarily going to challenge that, at least not in men.

1:06:09 John Dehlin So.

1:06:09 Natasha Helfer Parker But then I'm, I, you know, it's hard for me to know how to assess because I also would be interested in how angry she is to my point previously about feminist issues. How's her own anger and grief cycle about that playing into how she responds to her husband, who he may be like a deer in the headlights. Like, I'm just acting like I've always acted. And I don't know what you're so upset about. And I thought I was being, being super loving. So it would, it would, you know, it would require more assessment, obviously from my part to be able to say whether or not those things are really playing out in a clinical way, but to just be aware that she might also be hyper vigilant to those types of dynamics because she's so angry and with which will help her, I think anger always informs us. It will help her create boundaries. It will help. And she's going to be changing a dance. Well, what happens when you change a dance? You step on toes. Right. And what do people do? Well, they squawk. They don't like changing the dance, even if they're intellectually on board with you changing the toes and the feet and how they move is complicated. And so you will get resistance. And if you see that resistance as part of narcissism, maybe, maybe not. Maybe that's just a normal reaction to change, getting used to a whole new system that they're trying to navigate together. I do recommend, I think the book is called Walking on Eggshells or how to Stop Walking on Eggshells. I'll look it up later and maybe add it to the. I can't find it on my bookshelf right now, but it's actually how to help family systems deal with borderline personality disorder. But I find a lot of the strategies in there really helpful, regardless of what the personality disorder is.

1:07:53 Margi Dehlin Terrific.

1:07:55 John Dehlin Love it. So there is. So there is hope, you're saying?

1:07:59 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, sure, there's hope and then there's exploration. Yep. And then there's time frames. And 10 years down the road, she may feel less helpful or pretty satisfied.

1:08:09 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:08:09 John Dehlin Natasha, are you aware of someone who, let's just say, had narcissistic features, who was able to make substantive, meaningful change once it was brought to their attention and they sought support?

1:08:25 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, the statistics on personality disorders are not great at the same time, I want to be careful about that because I want to also make sure that we make room for the fact that the mental health profession has been telling everybody that it's not great for the last 30 years and how that implies what implications that has on both people who have these disorders. I think that it is unrealistic to think that somebody who has a full blown personality disorder will never have any of those traits ever again. I think that's unrealistic because that's a personality and personalities don't necessarily change. However, insights can change. And I have seen would say a few people that I would say made significant behavioral or emotional modifications for their spouse and their children to be able to tolerate and sustain the relationships.

1:09:27 John Dehlin Yes, it's also possible that, you know, a spouse can say, well, my, my spouse is narcissistic when really they're just kind of selfish. And not everyone who's selfish is. Has narcissistic personality disorder. And so again, I guess I'm just reflecting what you said when you started, which is we have to be careful with these diagnoses. Again, somebody who has high anxiety or even is really meticulous doesn't necessarily have ocd, obsessive compulsive disorder. That's a totally different realm. And so I agree with you that we should be careful using some of these more severe terms. And I would just say that selfishness is a lot more treatable than narcissistic personality disorder. So we're not confusing one for the other.

1:10:15 Natasha Helfer Parker And for those who are interested in seeking out treatment, the dbt. So dialectical behavioral therapy has shown really good results with borderline personality disorder and some other personality disorders as well. So that's. I would recommend that.

1:10:34 Margi Dehlin And that question actually kind of plays into the power differential sort of element that I was curious about exploring with you last time, Natasha, because it's also one of the chapters in the book by Gottman in that he talks about letting your partner influence you, how that is important. And one thing that just kind of popped like it popped out at me as I was reading was this. I'll actually quote it from the book that when a male in particular, and it's interesting because in that chapter he kind of does target, I feel like males in particular. When a male fails to share power with his partner, there is an 81% chance the marriage will fail. So the idea of influencing, and I'm wondering how you feel about why he may focus on males in particular. He explains it a little bit, but I'd be Curious kind of your take on it and what you feel about that. Because I was thinking as she was asking that question if it, if what she means by narcissism is she really doesn't feel like she can influence, infiltrate his psyche or really communicate in a way that touches him or influence him. That may be a larger, A larger issue.

1:12:01 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, in my own. So I'll just talk about my own experience as to why I would support what he's saying. We just don't live in a world anymore where you can get away with that behavior, quite frankly. I had a family member who is elderly and on, you know, a second marriage approach me one time and say the rules totally changed on me halfway. You know, so what I saw my father and my grandfather role modeling as far as what I. What type of relationship, you know, being the patriarch especially and being in charge and being the response, one that came with a certain marital style that wasn't really helping him have emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, you know, these kinds of things that, and you know, back maybe 200 years ago, not that women ever liked being treated subordinately, but we allowed for it more as a culture so you could get away with it more. I see a huge disparity even in my mother's age, children, women and you know, my daughter's age. As far as peers, you know, what they're, what they're willing to see and what I see a lot of times with the older, like 60 and above is that they're seeing the things that the younger generations are doing, the females are. And almost like I see a sense of bitterness or rage that they were not able to have those types of egalitarian relationships often or that they missed out on many opportunities or dreams that they had because not only maybe the church, but also the time in our history was not super indicated for women to be self asserting and you know, things of that nature. So it is a complex, I think, cultural and historic question. And it goes the other way too. I think that this is, and this is kind of what I was talking about last time too, is that women who assert power and have like a placating spouse, although I think just as unhealthy. Right, right, just as unhealthy. It's more tolerated in our society because I do believe we have this springboard since we do live overall in patriarchy. You can get away with negative things in the matriarchal things that you wouldn't be able to get away with anymore in patriarchy, if that makes sense. Because it's Almost like it's having to recalibrate. And so if you see a woman bossing her husband around or being super like, well, you're not going to do that, or I, you know, I kind of run the pants in the family that's almost seen as quirky or fun or cute.

1:14:52 Margi Dehlin Got it.

1:14:53 Natasha Helfer Parker Where a man doing that. We're all kind of, you know, are we ready to call the police or something if we see somebody exerting power over a woman inappropriately, especially in the public space. Right. So, of course, many of these things happen in the privacy of people's own homes. Yes. Power differentials are really fascinating and important and even myself having to think about. Because, you know, I transitioned really from that whole idea of being a stay at home mom and doing my gender role and I wanted my career, so I was kind of dabbled in that, but it was always very minimal compared to the time I was spending as a stay at home mother. And as that has shifted even after dealing with some of the legalities involved. Right. Like if my husband and I were to divorce now versus 20 years ago.

1:15:43 John Dehlin Mm.

1:15:44 Natasha Helfer Parker I would be held more financially responsible for our finances. Things that even as a feminist, make me uncomfortable and I'm not even sure are fair when I think about them personally. Right. Like, well, what about all the work I did with the kids that my husband didn't have to do? Right. Or all of those things that are just tricky. They get tricky when we're having to all of us shift in what we. We expected, what we thought we were, maybe what we felt we deserved as a woman or as a man in a certain relationship, the amount of time and energy we've put in in these relationships versus what we feel we've gotten out. I mean, these are tricky things.

1:16:27 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Yep.

1:16:29 Natasha Helfer Parker Do you want to add more as far as what Gottman would have said? To answer your question, I think what

1:16:34 Margi Dehlin you're saying totally makes sense. The main point I wanted to bring out just in that. With the having your partner influence, and I love it going both ways, this sort of emotional connection that you have, that you can communicate emotional things and, and share insights and that they're felt for one another, that he talks about

1:16:57 Natasha Helfer Parker how

1:16:59 Margi Dehlin there's less control in those relationships, less control issues, less authoritative kind of speaking. And he does focus on men, but one interesting aspect of that was he was saying how they make better fathers because they can communicate a spectrum of emotions and can hold those emotions comfortably with their children as well. So it benefit. Benefits the marriage, but it also benefits the family. And I thought this would be funny to do because in this part that says research shows a husband who can accept influence from his wife also tends to be an outstanding father, meaning he's familiar with his children's world, including their friends and their fears. I wrote John in the margin.

1:17:47 Natasha Helfer Parker Wait, is it over here?

1:17:52 Margi Dehlin Up on there? But there's a John anyway. I just thought it would be cute.

1:17:56 John Dehlin I did something good.

1:17:58 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, and what I want to also be very careful about because we, we tend to. We can be very blaming of men in patriarchy and authority. But I want to go back to, you know, my family member who I really could empathize with. We as a culture have shut down little boys emotionally from day one.

1:18:19 Margi Dehlin Yes, yes.

1:18:20 Natasha Helfer Parker We tell them not to cry, don't be a sissy man up, cowboy up, you know, all of these things. This is why men are not less emotional. They've just been expected to, you know, contain their emotions differently than women. And so for us now to be like, oh, you're the narcissist, you're the patriarch, you're the basically the asshole in the relationship. Well, you have to kind of take the cultural context into play because many of our husbands and fathers and grandfathers have not had the type of role modeling where they would have learned these skills to begin with. So can we allow, as we're making huge, I hope, progress, I hope in this movement towards more egalitarian relationships that in a sense, as women we've been given a heads up in that we were allowed emotional communication from a very early age and that men, in a sense, need some help catching up to that.

1:19:21 Margi Dehlin I love that thought. And it reminds me of Brene Brown. I think I watched one of her TED talks or an interview. She brought up that idea of talking. I think a male came up to her after a talk at a bookstore and said, you know, the women in my life could not handle me being vulnerable. And I think that's an important point, that we also have to work to be really safe for each other to be vulnerable, to show that sort of, that type of vulnerability in our men and with our boys and sons, that we allow them to cultivate language and safety around sharing their full emotional experiences. So love that. One of my most.

1:20:03 Natasha Helfer Parker Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, John.

1:20:05 John Dehlin I just wanted to add really quickly that when we talk about this person you talked about, Natasha, who said, oh, the rules changed on me and, and I can't be sort of 50s style patriarchal anymore. I like this idea that we heard from A podcast once, that you're always gonna be in at least three marriages. Now, that may be to the same person or to a different person, but you're always gonna have at least three. And I think setting that expectation that we kind of think, oh, well, you know, we'll have this. Either this wonderful thing that'll last forever, or this awful thing that'll last forever, or this wonderful thing that becomes awful and then lasts forever.

1:20:47 Natasha Helfer Parker But part of that is awesome.

1:20:51 John Dehlin Part of that is because we're not in this expectation of renovation and self discovery. And so, yes, it may be that the patriarchal sort of chauvinistic tendencies you learn from your, you know, Post World War II Father, you know, doesn't cut it 20 years into your marriage once your wife becomes enlightened to feminism and you both leave the church, and all of a sudden she becomes aware of and starts exercising her own power. But that's okay. That's this brilliant opportunity to renovate the relationship, to discover, to learn new things about each other, to almost be married to a different person, and to reap all the joy and the benefits of that discovery and of that retooling of the relationship. What's wrong with remodeling a house every 15 years? Every woman and probably many men would love to see that happen. Why shouldn't a marriage. Why should a marriage be any different?

1:21:53 Margi Dehlin Love it.

1:21:55 Natasha Helfer Parker I love that. Yes, absolutely. I love the three marriage approach. We're living longer than ever, so

1:22:02 John Dehlin our

1:22:02 Margi Dehlin marriages are having to last longer. And that's right. Changes. I feel like it's like minimal is three, honestly. Because truly, you're just look at the difference between when you're first married, no children, then add children. Fundamentally different things going on in the marriage there to nest to midlife crisis,

1:22:24 John Dehlin or even young children to teenage children.

1:22:27 Margi Dehlin And if you think about it, the relationship, like oftentimes when you marry someone, oftentimes you're especially within the Mormon realm, what type of mother you'll be, what type of. And that is paramount. But then you hit 45 and you want a companion. You actually are thinking, now I really want a friend. And this is something that I think we all, with a little bit of awareness can look. Can look at and say, how can we develop these parts of our relationship and change and grow to meet different circumstances and that it's that expectation thing versus the stagnant we're in. All right.

1:23:05 John Dehlin Kimberly writes Preach. Margi.

1:23:10 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, one of the things I was gonna say, I think one of my most vulnerable moments with myself as I was thinking about the gender roles my husband and I play and even feeds into this article that came out this last week that I wasn't super thrilled about a wife dealing with porn addiction with her husband. I'd go that with addiction, because I don't. Anyway. This idea that men are to protect and provide and preside. She used those three p words. And although, you know, there's a part of me, very feminist part of me that would say, oh, that's, you know, that's an awful way to portray men again in my lived experience, I had to really look at that. I do like feeling protected. I do like, you know, sometimes having that man where I don't ever feel like I have to make a decision on my own that isn't flanked. Right. Or that. And so it was really interesting for me to start thinking about. And this probably happened for me about 10 or 12 years ago. Oh, And I'm going to get emotional about it. I can't believe this.

1:24:13 John Dehlin Stop.

1:24:13 Margi Dehlin Nope.

1:24:14 John Dehlin None of that. None of that.

1:24:17 Natasha Helfer Parker What would it feel like for my husband to feel protected? What would my husband. What would it be like for my husband to feel presided over by his wife, you know, and provided for?

1:24:31 Margi Dehlin Natasha, I love that.

1:24:34 John Dehlin Yeah.

1:24:34 Natasha Helfer Parker And it really just shifted my whole paradigm, you know, Like, I was. I was counting on him for too much. And as feminist as I was in my intellect, I wasn't having it really sift through my life in a way that I could really honor him, and in this kind of new way that was really egalitarian, you know, And I think that that has really shifted my whole way of looking at, you know, at least how I see my marriage. Absolutely beautiful.

1:25:06 Margi Dehlin I really love that.

1:25:07 Natasha Helfer Parker Oh, and I'm just gonna add really quick, because this does not mean sexual stuff.

1:25:13 John Dehlin So I was gonna say, will you preside over me?

1:25:19 Natasha Helfer Parker Well, I guess what I'm saying is that erotic templates are not always egalitarian, and they're not super politically correct. So I can be a super feminist and everything like that, but in bed, I'm like, take me. I'm the submissive one. Right. And that's okay, because it's not. It doesn't need to be politically correct. I mean, I can challenge some of that if I want to play with more domineering roles, but I don't have to. Like, it can be okay to go back to gender roles and have fun with that in your sex life.

1:25:49 Margi Dehlin Absolutely fabulous.

1:25:52 John Dehlin Love it. All right.

1:25:55 Margi Dehlin Should we move to predictors of a divorce?

1:25:57 John Dehlin Yeah. So we have a bunch of stuff on our list that we won't get to, but maybe we can end with the first four horsemen. Natasha, you've done a lot of speaking about the four Horsemen. Tell us about what they're predictors of and then talk about each one briefly, if you don't mind.

1:26:14 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah, well, unfortunately, they're predictors of divorce. Right. And so. And Gottman's whole claim to fame is that he can, you know, predict divorce with like 90% accuracy after having guess, assessed or evaluated a couple for a few days, which he does in the Love Lab in Seattle. You know, he does all his studies, which he's done really excellent work. So one of the really great marriage therapists who was able to not only take these concepts, but really measure them and put them into practice in a very, you know, evidence based type of model, which is really great. So the four horsemen are, if I can remember off the top of my head, is criticism, contempt, stonewalling. Stonewalling and defensiveness. Defensiveness. Okay, so really quick just to describe them all. Contempt is different than, I mean, critique. Being critical is different than complaining. So this doesn't mean that you can't ever have a complaint. We're gonna have tons of complaints. We're gonna, you know, be upset and annoyed and want things to change and shift. And that's perfectly normal. Contempt or critique is more about adding value to now the person. So very classic example is a complaint would be, I'm really disappointed that you didn't take out the trash when you said you would. That's a complaint. Critique would be like, what's wrong with you? You're so lazy, you never take out the trash. So now we've added value to the person's kind of, what is it personal worth? Right. Right now both are probably going to elicit some level of defensiveness because nobody likes to be reminded that they forgot to take out the trash. But the second one, the critique is going to elicit a lot more defensiveness because now not only do I have to defend my not taking out the trash behavior, but I have to defend my whole character. And I'm probably going to do that somewhat by bringing up your character flaws, you know, and then we're off to the races. Right? So, but so learning how to emotionally regulate can be a big part of learning how to handle complaints well as well. Like, okay, yeah, I can look at weaknesses that I have without pulling a gasket. Contempt is my classic emoji for contempt is the eye roll.

1:28:48 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:28:48 Natasha Helfer Parker So it's kind of like that I can't even believe that I'm in this position, you know, with you. And I am obviously so much better than you, you know, in this particular issue. Like, I've got it all figured out. Right. And we all do it. I don't. I mean, I think about the times I've eye rolled to my husband and I'm like, oh, my Lanta. You know, you think I would have read Gottman 20 years ago, which I did, and still do this. But anyway, so we all do it. It's good to repair, and there's good ways to kind of get out of that. But that idea that somehow my position is better than yours and can't even begin to fathom how you can have that position. And so this really builds into disrespect.

1:29:39 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:29:40 Natasha Helfer Parker Which. That's a real danger zone for a couple when I don't respect your positions or your character or the way you think or the way you are.

1:29:49 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:29:49 Natasha Helfer Parker Defensiveness is obviously how we respond to these things. Right. So we defend ourselves. Instead of taking the time to validate or be able to see it from another person's perspective. It's no, I've got to defend my turf, my territory. I'm not willing to listen to your things, or I'm hurting or I'm angry, and so I'm gonna defend myself. And oftentimes conversations are just going right past each other. You can't even listen to what each other saying, and you both are feeling more hurt and more upset over time. Stonewalling is usually when somebody floods. So flooding is an interesting term. And as Gottman is describing, these couples that he's watching, you can see the couples that are very agitated. But there are times when one person is like. And the other person is all stoic and they seem very calm, but they're measuring your heart rate. And usually that person's heart rate and emotional regulation is actually worse than the person who seems all agitated. And that is a sign of flooding. So in other words, I'm so flooded by the emotional distress that I'm feeling as you're complaining and carrying on or whatever it is that you're doing that I can't manage that I will now check out. And that's what stonewalling is. So it's kind of when the eyes glaze over, or I actually leave the room, or I refuse to talk with you. And this can become a very typical pattern in what I call pursuer, withdrawer relationships. So most of us have a tendency to either be a pursuer or A withdrawer. And each marriage is different on that, but usually the withdrawers are the ones who are flooding and stepping out. And then what does the other person do? Their anxiety goes up and so they pursue, which makes it even worse. And so, you know, you go again round and round on these and then the meanings that are attributed to it. Right. Well, you don't care. You're not staying engaged. You're not prioritizing me, you're not staying up till 4 o' clock in the morning because remember, we're never supposed to go to bed angry. Stupidest advice ever. So it's just all these things that then lead to over. If you do this chronically enough. Well, yeah, you can see how the meaning now has deteriorated the foundation of that relationship. You don't respect me. You don't. You're not. You don't. You don't have gratitude for me. Right. You take me for granted. We have these huge blowouts that nothing gets resolved. It becomes an unsustainable relationship.

1:32:29 Margi Dehlin Yep.

1:32:31 John Dehlin Love it.

1:32:34 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

1:32:35 John Dehlin So did that cover the four.

1:32:37 Margi Dehlin That's the Four Horsemen.

1:32:38 John Dehlin That's the Four Horsemen.

1:32:40 Natasha Helfer Parker Yep.

1:32:40 John Dehlin Thanks to John Gottman and summarized gratefully by Natasha Helfer Parker.

1:32:48 Natasha Helfer Parker That sounded so formal.

1:32:49 John Dehlin Yeah.

1:32:51 Natasha Helfer Parker Like the end of a little research paper or something.

1:32:53 John Dehlin Yeah, right. That's my training coming into play. All right. Any other. Margaret, you had a few final things you wanted to mention. We've got a few minutes left. Do you want to.

1:33:03 Margi Dehlin For the predictors of divorce?

1:33:04 John Dehlin Yeah. Is there anything else you want to.

1:33:06 Margi Dehlin One thing I love, just because it feels like it's super practical. Another predictor of divorce is the idea of a failed repair attempt. So oftentimes you'll see, amidst a disagreement, one spouse either try to make a joke or maybe dial down a little bit or to reach out and even physically maybe touch the spouse or. And one thing that I've really focused on doing when we have disagreements or is to not only to give, give a repair attempt, first of all to try and provide those, but also when he reaches out in any way to try to repair or dial down, that you want to reinforce that as much as possible, that failed repair attempts are a predictor of divorce as well. So repeatedly, when you're trying to sort of heal or bring things back to a level where you can communicate effectively again and feel those positive centering feelings around one another, that it's just a no go.

1:34:14 John Dehlin So if somebody, if your partner reaches out to you to try and fix things, repair things, try not to reject their bid. Is that what you're saying?

1:34:24 Margi Dehlin That's right.

1:34:24 Natasha Helfer Parker Now, what if to see it as a repair.

1:34:27 Margi Dehlin Exactly. To see the reaching, the reaching out of the hair.

1:34:30 Natasha Helfer Parker That's what I failed on, that fail for a long time. Because my husband's repair attempts is usually through humor. So what would I do? You're not taking this seriously. You're even more of a jerk because now you've taken my complaint and made fun of it. And it really was through Gottman's work that I started shifting that and recognizing. No, that's an olive branch. And maybe it's not the olive branch I'd prefer, but it's an olive branch and I need to take it or else I'm definitely a big part of

1:35:02 John Dehlin the problem too now sometimes, because I think Margi's a little more careful in day to day behavior and I may be a little bit less careful, step over boundaries a little more than she does. And the flip of that is that maybe I'm maybe super maybe a little bit more fast sometimes to forgive or move on. And maybe sometimes that can, you know, for some people can take longer. And so what if your partner is ready to make up and makes those bids but you're still angry? What if you're not ready to make up and you don't feel good and you don't want to make nice?

1:35:44 Margi Dehlin Well, I would you say, Natasha, that doesn't feel like I. I really don't love conflict, so if I see a bid, I try.

1:35:53 John Dehlin No, I'm not saying that's you.

1:35:54 Margi Dehlin I know. That's why I was saying. I don't know that I could answer because I feel like for me, I have such a strong level of discomfort around conflict that I'm usually pretty. But what would you say to that? If you're still. If you're incensed and you can tell, I'm still triggered and I don't care. I don't care. I'm not done yet. I'm not done with my. What I want to say.

1:36:14 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah, yeah, no. And I think that the purpose of a repair attempt is not necessarily to have all things feelings go away. I think that that's an unrealistic expectation. So I think it's more about, okay, I thank you for that or I acknowledge it. You can still say, though, it would be really helpful for me to talk this through a little bit longer with you or just because you made a joke. And I know that that's part of you trying to reach out to me. I'm not ready yet. You know, and so give me. Give me a few minutes or give me an evening, and we can reconnect tomorrow. But thanks, Elise, for trying to reach out to me.

1:36:54 Margi Dehlin Right, right.

1:36:55 Natasha Helfer Parker So these are not. It's not, oh, I reach out. Therefore, you need to be ready to accept me.

1:37:00 Margi Dehlin And it's all over. It's all over. Discussion over.

1:37:04 Natasha Helfer Parker Right. Especially if you have somebody who tends to use humor because they want to avoid conflict. Right. And so that's a legitimate complaint, even if it is a repair attempt. So sometimes they're mixed bags.

1:37:16 Margi Dehlin And repair attempts can also be used not to try and assuage the situation or have it be all better, but also just to bring it down. Like, maybe you have flooded each other and now you're yelling. And a repair attempt can be this attempt to bring it down. Let's just bring it down for the rest of the conversation and be able to. So that's important to Message to.

1:37:41 John Dehlin I just want to reiterate something that you're good to talk about, Natasha, and that I try and talk about too. You know, we have this flight or fight. Fight or flight response that we. That we inherited biologically through millions of years of evolution. You know, we hear a noise in the jungle and we run, and the blood goes literally from our brain to our muscles so that we can run away from the lion. And intellectual or emotional threats can trigger that just as significantly or even more so as can physical. And, you know, I just. It never hurts to remind people that your IQ literally drops by 10 or 20 points when your fight or flight system has been triggered. And so that's the worst time to talk through something. And I used to always think, no, we have to stay here in the room until we work this out. And if. If. And it was part of my own abandonment fears and my. You know, from childhood where I just thought, oh, my gosh, if we leave now, maybe it'll be irreparable. But that, again, was not good thinking. Sometimes just walking away instead of staying and insulting each other and escalating the damage, just walking away. Take a break. Go away for an hour or two. Go take a walk. You can return. You know, you get a text from your. I won't say, sweetie, from your brilliant partner, and it says, hey, are you ready to regroup? And if I am, I'll say yes, and if not, say, I need a little bit more time. It's just gonna make your repair attempts way more successful when you're not triggered.

1:39:18 Margi Dehlin And one thing I think that we've learned, too, is how you leave can be important, you know, so let's say you need a little bit of space, and that may be actually the best idea, that leaving with, like, things being they're talking to you and you're leaving and you slam the door and you. Is different than. You know what? I am feeling overwhelmed by this. I'm feeling like this discussion. I'm probably gonna end up hurting you or saying things I don't want to say. I need. I probably need to take a breather. How about we come back in an hour? How about we. Before the night is through, let's come back together and work this.

1:39:57 John Dehlin Or in the morning, as Natasha likes to say.

1:39:59 Natasha Helfer Parker Yes.

1:39:59 Margi Dehlin Or in the morning. But there's sort of a time frame so that, especially if you're dealing with someone who has abandonment issues, it's not this leaving. It's I love you. Let's come back to center here for a moment. I love you, and I am going to take a break. It's because I love you that I'm doing it and because I care about the relationship. And we will be talking. I think that it's important also to come back around to say. And we will talk through it, and we'll talk through it so that there's that end. And sometimes that closure, it doesn't have to be, you know, exact, but this attention to. We will talk it through, you know, before the end of night or before tomorrow or. You know what I mean?

1:40:41 Natasha Helfer Parker Absolutely. Having strategic timeout strategies is, I think, super important for any marriage. Again, you can have a code word so that you just know one of you says that word, and that's kind of the end. Typically, again, the withdrawer will ask for timeouts more often than the pursuer. And this is why I think it's important to have some strategies and kind of guidelines around taking a timeout. So how I usually coach my clients is, okay, so if whoever takes the time out, whoever says the code word or says, I need time, it is now your responsibility to make sure you come back to the table and that that time frame should be no longer than 48 hours. Right. So kind of giving you two day, because sometimes you have a business trip or sometimes you have, you know, so you have things come up. But ideally, it should be somewhere between half an hour and two hours. That would be ideal. But you can give yourself up to 5, 48 hours to calm yourself down. So you have some timelines, just some guidelines. And the pursuer, although it will be hard for them to honor the timeout because they want to pursue. They have some just, you know, some idea that. Okay, first of all, this isn't just another avoidance of a conversation I've tried to have with you 500 times or that I, you know, I can manage my anxiety as the pursuer because I do have that, I guess, that assurance that you're coming back to the table.

1:42:12 Margi Dehlin Right, Right.

1:42:13 John Dehlin Love it.

1:42:14 Margi Dehlin Love it.

1:42:15 John Dehlin So, Natasha, I have good news and bad news. The bad news is we're at the end of our episode, and we have not gone through all our points yet. But the good news is that means we get to have you back another time. Not necessarily sure if it's next week, but we know that you've set aside time to be able to be available for this podcast, and so let's have you back a lot. How does that sound?

1:42:39 Natasha Helfer Parker I would love to be back anytime. I love hanging out with the two of you and everybody else who either visits you on this or is just listening to us. So that would be great.

1:42:50 John Dehlin All right, so give us again, a quick plug for anything you want to plug.

1:42:56 Natasha Helfer Parker Symmetry solutions online practice. I basically built this because. Because I can't take everybody who wants to see me, or maybe I don't have the availability that people desire, or my rates are not fitting people's needs. And so I'm trying to have a nice spectrum of providers who are at different rates, different experience levels, but everybody's under my supervision. And so you kind of get like Natasha in, you know, in the background, if you like my style. And I've picked people who I feel are really great at what they do and trustworthy and definitely wanting to learn the things that I have to offer and teach around faith transitions, around sexuality issues, around marital things, LGBT support. So these are things that obviously, through my career at. No, these are just things that kind of have fallen into my lap, you know, as I've been a Mormon therapist, things that people have come to me over and over and over again. And so I know there's a need and sometimes having it. Some people think about FaceTime versus online services differently. There's pros and cons to both, but you'd be surprised at how effective online services can be. So don't let that scare you away. Then I have my Mormon Sex Info podcast, which I think I charge for it a whole $25. So I know that's pricey, but the reason I do that is because I make sure that it's not just a casual podcast, that it is very informative, and that I'm Actually giving you tools that you can use and product and this stuff that we do takes a lot of time and I think it's okay to charge for our content. And yeah, Mormon Mental Health podcast. I'm always trying to. That's my calling these days, my self appointed calling that I give to myself to help out. And I love doing it and I love the opportunity to do it through open stories.

1:44:56 Margi Dehlin So brilliant.

1:44:57 John Dehlin All right, well, we love having you and we love your comments and participation today, Natasha. So thank you and please join us again soon.

1:45:08 Natasha Helfer Parker Thank you for having me.

1:45:10 John Dehlin All right, so in addition, Margi wanted to add a little segment at the end. So Margi's creative juices are flowing today and she wants to have a segment at the end called Challenges. And it doesn't mean challenges as in things we're struggling with. It's sort of ways that maybe Margi and I are challenging ourselves to do or be better and extending an invitation to listeners to maybe do one thing differently as they leave this podcast. So were you going to share something, a challenge for yourself?

1:45:48 Margi Dehlin Well, I was going to report that last week, just knowing that we were going to do the podcast, I decided to focus on the influence. So the principle of let your partner influence you. And I was curious if you like, now that I've told you, if you could tell there were a couple instances this past week I was sick and there were a couple of instances where, you know, it took some effort. I could tell within me, I tend to be a simplifier and we're moving and some big changes are happening. If you felt that at all and if so, where and how it made you feel.

1:46:24 John Dehlin Hmm. Yes. So you're asking me how I felt?

1:46:27 Margi Dehlin Yeah. If you could tell that I was trying to allow myself to be influenced by either suggestions you had or things that you felt like you needed or and maybe just to share one, because I think it's nice for them to see if they're not big things that we're talking about. It's. It's kind of things. And, and then we can also.

1:46:48 John Dehlin So, Sharon, if you don't mind. Yeah, so. So one example is that Margi was super sick last week.

1:46:55 Natasha Helfer Parker Week.

1:46:55 John Dehlin And she's still a little sick. And my brother extended an invitation to my son Winston to participate in an ultimate Frisbee tournament over the weekend. And normally Margi would have just wanted, and health wise, it probably would have been good for her to just stay in bed and relax. And I wasn't so much asking you to not stay in bed. Per se, but really felt like this would be a cool opportunity for Winston to practice Ultimate Frisbee, which is something he loves and really values. And what I really appreciate is that you really are trying to allow us both to have real contributions to decisions and to the relationship. And you said, okay, let's do it. And so we went ahead and enrolled Winston, like on a Thursday night and Saturday, all day. He played in a Ultimate Frisbee tournament that he really loved. And that was super flexible of you. And I think it meant a lot to Winston and it meant a lot to me.

1:47:56 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Thank you. It was kind of one of those situations where we would have to get up at 5am, drive two hours and spend the day kind of outside.

1:48:05 John Dehlin So anyway, you sacrificed for Winston.

1:48:08 Margi Dehlin It was simple things and he loved it. He's now over the moon, so it was such a great thing. And so it's that idea that we're together for a reason. Right. And that we're better together than just sort of. So that was one thing that played out very, very well. And so the idea of a challenge too, is just to pick something from the podcast. Simple that you could tell, maybe think in your marriage if there's something simple that you could do to kind of focus on in simple ways for the next week. And so I will be doing that again for sure. Do you know what you'll be doing,

1:48:44 Natasha Helfer Parker what you'll be focusing on?

1:48:46 John Dehlin I've enjoyed being non reactive, and I don't think I've got it mastered yet. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna go for another week of trying to be non reactive to things that are troubling or disturbing to me and letting the emotions sort of rise like a wave and then lower like a wave. Natasha, we hushed you, but I think you need to share with us one way that you're going to challenge yourself this week.

1:49:18 Natasha Helfer Parker Okay. Well, so for as much as I preach on many of these things, I struggle probably the most with contempt.

1:49:28 John Dehlin You're an eye roller.

1:49:30 Natasha Helfer Parker I'm an eye roller. And especially when it comes to politics and, like, positions that I try to take, you know, and my husband's very good at being very kind of data driven and knowledgeable. And so the way. And I'm not as good at remembering all this stuff. I just know I listen to something and I know you're wrong. And so eye roll comes along and I can feel it in my throat, like it's all. And my heart is like, boom, boom,

1:50:03 John Dehlin boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

1:50:04 Margi Dehlin Right?

1:50:04 Natasha Helfer Parker And I get this like stuff right here that's hot going on in my chest. And my ongoing challenge to myself over the last probably two years, I've been really trying to be mindful of when I'm in that spot. And you know, I think I've improved. But I could still go a long way as far as using that information that my body gives me me to then slow myself down instead of continuing to engage in non healthy behavioral patterns. So there you go.

1:50:41 Margi Dehlin I love that.

1:50:42 John Dehlin So less eye rolls for Andy this week?

1:50:45 Natasha Helfer Parker Yes.

1:50:46 John Dehlin All right, ask Andy to email me at the end of the week.

1:50:50 Natasha Helfer Parker Yeah, I will tell him to check in.

1:50:52 John Dehlin All right. All right, listeners. And I think, Margi, part of the idea was for listeners to challenge themselves to give themselves a challenge for the week. Paulette says challenge before the eye roll. Look him straight in the eye and ask. Really? I would like to hear why you feel this way.

1:51:11 Natasha Helfer Parker That's what Paulette, what good role modeling. See, I can learn from everybody too. Yes, it's absolutely great.

1:51:20 John Dehlin Thanks for that tip to Natasha Paulette and just want to encourage our listeners if they want to go ahead and post right now any challenges that they are going to accept for themselves. But those of you who are listening just from the podcast or asynchronously, please do challenge yourselves to change something this week and try it out. Plant the seed and see if it sprouts, so to speak. And I just want to end by thanking my brilliant wife for joining us. I love your contributions and I really am grateful that you do this with us.

1:51:55 Natasha Helfer Parker Hey, thank you.

1:51:56 Margi Dehlin It's really fun for me.

1:51:58 John Dehlin I want to thank again, Natasha Helfer Parker for joining us.

1:52:01 Margi Dehlin Thank you, Natasha.

1:52:02 John Dehlin I want to thank, thank you Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton who produce everything behind the scenes and to keep the Open Stories foundation going so that we can survive and not implode. Important and that's really nice. And I want to thank all the people who donate to the Open Stories Foundation. If you enjoy this programming and you don't support us, please consider going to MormonStories.org, clicking on the Donate button. 1025 bucks a month, 100 bucks, whatever you can afford can keep the lights on and allow us to keep providing this content not just for you but for other people. So please do support us. It makes a huge difference. Thanks to everyone who does support us. Thanks to everyone for tuning in. And we are going to be having next week's episode again on what is it, Margi? Developing a family culture.

1:52:55 Margi Dehlin Yeah, creating a family culture.

1:52:57 John Dehlin Creating a family culture, specifically after a faith transition or religious transition that can apply either in or out of the church.

1:53:04 Margi Dehlin Absolutely.

1:53:05 John Dehlin So please keep that coming. And all of you joined us live on Facebook. We appreciate your comments and questions. Your questions make this a lot more interactive and fun. So thanks everybody. Please join us again soon. Take care. Thanks Natasha, and we'll see everyone again soon. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us. Please make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

1:53:50 Natasha Helfer Parker When with a wounded heart, anger or mountain,

1:54:01 John Dehlin I draw myself apart, searching my soul.