Communicating with Children During a Faith Transition

Episode 22

0:20 John Dehlin And now what we want to do is introduce our topic for today. So the topic that we chose for today is how to communicate with children as you're going through a Mormon transition. And in the past episodes, we have in depth discussed how to communicate with believers about a faith transition. But what we thought is we would do an extension of that and discuss how to communicate with kids, because, honestly, it's scary. It's one thing for adults to go through this transition, but it's a totally different thing to be doing it with children. And what you never want to do is shock or disrupt your children's lives. You don't want to give them trauma. You don't want to make a mistake that will negatively impact their development. And so it's just tricky. And so we are. Why are you laughing?

1:13 Julie Hanks Nothing.

1:14 Margi Dehlin Because now that they're appropriately afraid, they're like, wow.

1:21 John Dehlin Well, we don't want to make you afraid. But I think, isn't fear a normal feeling that parents feel once they go through this?

1:29 Margi Dehlin For sure.

1:32 John Dehlin So we're gonna talk about it. And to talk about it, we have brought on three really cool panelists to join us. So again, I'm John Delyn. Introduce yourself, please.

1:43 Margi Dehlin Margie Delyn.

1:45 John Dehlin Thanks for joining us, Margie.

1:46 Margi Dehlin Thanks.

1:47 John Dehlin Margie is my lovely wife. And what we want to do is bring on our three panelists. So I'm going to ask all three panelists to please unmute themselves. I don't think you need to stay muted. And we're going to introduce each of you. So I'm going to have you kind of introduce yourself. And so I'll call out your name, tell us where you live, what your day job is, and one fun thing about you. So, Julie Diazavet or Hanks, I'll have you start first. Tell us where you live, what your day job is, and one fun thing about you. And Hans and Pearson, get ready to answer the same.

2:21 Julie Hanks Oh, fun thing. I have to think about that. I live in Sandy, Utah, and I own Wasatch Family Therapy. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. And one fun thing about me, John Dehlin knows my songs by heart.

2:36 John Dehlin He carried me through the darkness and the dawn.

2:42 Julie Hanks Nice.

2:44 Margi Dehlin Nice.

2:44 John Dehlin That was an efy song you did, like, way back in the day.

2:48 Julie Hanks 86.

2:49 John Dehlin 86. So I'm dating myself. What's that?

2:54 Julie Hanks 87. I think we're the same age.

2:56 John Dehlin Yeah, I'm 47.

2:58 Julie Hanks I'm 48.

2:59 John Dehlin Okay, so just really briefly, Lex Diazevedo wrote Saturday's Warrior. That's been an amazing Influence in mine in hundreds of thousands of Mormons lives. Julie, I assume you're Lex's daughter.

3:13 Julie Hanks Yeah.

3:14 John Dehlin And that you have a mother too.

3:16 Julie Hanks I have a mother. Her name's Linda and she's awesome.

3:21 John Dehlin And then. Yeah, Julie, you do a lot of work with questioning progressive and post Mormon. So we love having you guys on the show. So thanks for joining us.

3:31 Julie Hanks Thank you.

3:33 John Dehlin Okay, Hans Matzson, where do you live? What's your day job? And tell us one interesting thing about you.

3:41 Margi Dehlin Hi.

3:41 Hans Mattson I live in Spain, Rojales and I tried to learn some Spanish once in a while, but there are a lot of English people living around, so it's hard to learn something else. Anyway, I'm a pensioner, so I don't do anything more than I spend a lot, a lot of time writing the book about my life.

4:04 John Dehlin Do you have a title for that book yet?

4:06 Hans Mattson I think I have one that I like and this is it. And it come to pass.

4:13 John Dehlin I love it. Yeah. So listeners will know that I interviewed. Oh, go ahead, Hans.

4:18 Hans Mattson I may come to pass. A Journey in Simon and out.

4:24 John Dehlin Beautiful.

4:25 Hans Mattson Something like that. The manuscript is ready in Swedish, so there is a few companies looking at it now. And I'm looking with the torch to find someone who can translate it to English in a nice way. I hope I will find something good.

4:44 John Dehlin Beautiful. So listeners, for the. For the few listeners who don't know. Hans Mattson was an area authority for the church in Sweden for five years. So that's kind of like. Kind of like a general authority. His story is on Mormon stories. We were proud to share it. His faith journey was covered in the New York Times and Hans is a dear friend. And Hans, thanks for joining us on Mormon transitions. Kirsten, tell us a bit about yourself.

5:18 Kirsten I live in Salt Lake City, Utah and I am a reading intervention specialist. So my job is to help. I. I work for the U, but I'm housed in a school up in Clearfield where my job is to teach faculty and staff how to do reading intervention strategies for kids who struggle to read.

5:38 Margi Dehlin So important.

5:39 John Dehlin Brilliant.

5:40 Kirsten Sadly, that need is not going away. Yeah, yeah.

5:44 Margi Dehlin Fun fact, I guess.

5:45 Kirsten I love to run. I've run nine marathons.

5:49 John Dehlin Wow.

5:50 Margi Dehlin Seriously?

5:51 Kirsten It's all relative.

5:53 John Dehlin That's great. Margie's a runner, so.

5:56 Margi Dehlin But not marathons. So

6:00 John Dehlin really quick. I don't love people having to sort of spend time with the show identifying if they've left the church or resigned or whatever. I just don't know that that's necessarily really crucial. What I do want to do is make sure if anybody is still a believer in some sense or active, that they feel comfortable sharing that just so that believers kind of feel comfortable that they're represented on the show. So do any of you. Would any of you identify as believing and. Or actively participating in the church? I should have sort of vetted this. So, Julie, why don't you talk about that just for a second?

6:41 Kirsten Sure.

6:43 Julie Hanks I'm active in the church, Temple attending, calling, holding, non orthodox Mormon.

6:52 John Dehlin Brilliant. Well, you're all welcome. But I just want to. I want to give you a special welcome because I think it's a courageous thing to engage in these discussions as a believer, as an active participant. I don't know. Does it feel courageous to you, Julie?

7:11 Julie Hanks No, I love it. I think it's so important, and I really appreciate the opportunity.

7:19 John Dehlin Great. Okay. Well, we love having you all, so thanks for joining us. Panelists, I want to thank everyone who's joined us through everyone who's joined us through Zoom. It looks like we've got 11 people now joined us through Zoom, and I want those on Zoom to know that they can chat through Zoom and add questions and comments. And if they want to actually participate in, we can join you as a panelist and have you ask your question and we can talk about it. So those who join us through Zoom, please take advantage of the chat right now so I know it's working. And please think about whether you want to actually ask a question on the show and discuss something. And then those joining us through Facebook Live again know that Shandy and Amy are going to be watching your comments there, and they're going to paste them in the chat box here in Zoom so that we can pay attention to them and include them in our show. Amy, give me a thumbs up if you're. If you're cool with that.

8:21 Kirsten Yes, I am.

8:22 John Dehlin Okay, cool. Thank you, Amy. All right, so let's jump in. We apologize for the sort of long introduction, but until we all learn what's going on here, I think we need to be more explicit because this is not all as straightforward as Amy, Shandy and I are learning. So we're gonna just be explaining that until we all kind of get what's going on. So thanks for your patience. We tried to make the intro short. All right, so now we're gonna talk about how to talk to children when we're going through a faith transition and what Margie and I did. And, panelists, I hope this is okay. We wanna start by Margie and I sharing a few sort of. Sort of Thoughts to set the stage. And we're gonna have you guys join in to discuss the thoughts once we're able to sort of share a few ones, just to set the stage. And then we want to invite you guys to share your thoughts to also help set the stage. Does that make sense? Okay. And you guys, Hans, you don't even have to mute because you guys aren't. There's no noise coming through. And we want you guys to feel comfortable as panelists to jump in at any time. But what Margie and I did was we thought about a few ideas we wanted to convey as a setting point. And here's one, and I'll start. So what we thought about when we were trying to talk to our kids, one of the big mental shifts that we felt had to happen is we're talking with our kids. And for a long time we were going through our transition, probably 15 years. We went through our transition as active, semi believing members. And so much of our experience with our kids came from the time we were both semi believing and actively participating. But even then, one shift we had to make in our minds was moving with our kids away from the idea that the church is the ultimate authority in our lives. Sort of like whatever the prophet says and whatever the general authorities say and whatever the bishop says and whatever their Sunday school teacher says, that's the gospel. That's sort of a bit how we were raised and a bit how. Maybe for some orthodox members that's the experience. I don't want to say for all orthodox members, but for some. And the first thing we had to work with our kids is shifting them so that they view the church not as evil or bad or completely illegitimate in their lives. Because that'd be confusing to be raising them in an organization that we were teaching them was evil or bad, but instead shifting in their minds the focus that the church is one source of possible feedback or guidance or even inspiration, but that it can also be a source of error or of just opinion and such that they learn that balanced with feedback from their parents. Because we don't want to set ourselves up as a replacement of authority for the church balanced with their parents as sources of consideration or wisdom, the church becomes one of many sources of consideration and that we're also setting themselves up to plug into their own inner voice as a significant source inspiration. So that's the first sort of shift that Margie and I have identified as an important thing to consider when raising kids. Margie's tapping me.

12:22 Margi Dehlin So Margie, I was gonna say so the idea becomes less like, now we're gonna go to church and be told. Right. It's more, we're gonna go to church and we're gonna be exposed to all these ideas. Right. And all these different beliefs. Then we'll come home and what we really want to hear is how you felt about it. All right, that kind of describes a little more of the shift, right?

12:46 John Dehlin So as the shift happens.

12:48 Margi Dehlin Exactly.

12:49 John Dehlin And so many. So many, like, doubting or disbelieving Mormons are, like, petrified to even have their kids go to church because they're like, well, what if their minds are poisoned? Or what if they're brainwashed to become sexist, racist homophobes? Right? And what I think Margie and I like to convey is this idea that, no, no, no. No matter where they go in life, school, in laws, friends, they're going to be presented with good ideas and bad ideas. And the idea isn't to just avoid anywhere where they could possibly get a wrong message. The idea is that becomes this fertile ground for the family to develop the discipline and the practice of communication and intimacy where people can share their experiences, share what they learned, and it becomes a dialogue between parent and child where it's like, huh, what'd you learn? Oh, you learned that non Mormons will be burned at the second coming. How did that make you feel? Do you feel like that's the God that you know? Do you feel like that's not the God that you know? Does that seem right to you? Mommy and Daddy don't believe that. But what's most important is what do you believe? And so that's sort of. I think that gives a good taste for the first sort of tenet that we wanted to express. Now I want to throw it to panelists. Any panelists want to sort of respond to that? Thumbs up, thumbs down, thumbs sideways. Okay, I'm getting a thumbs up from Hans. Hans, do you want to comment at all?

14:26 Hans Mattson Yeah. Because I think it's different how old your kids are. My kids are kind of grown up, and I have grandkids. The other one is, did you have those feelings you talked about from the beginning, or is that something you have now that you are so wise and consider about your kids? Because myself, I was also in a different stage. I was kind of angry first. I was disappointed. And what I shared with my children then maybe is different what I do now.

15:07 John Dehlin Right.

15:07 Hans Mattson I mean, it's also a progression for myself and how I talk to the kids. The depending where I am must.

15:18 John Dehlin Yeah. So what I hear you say, Hans, is that maybe, maybe now that you've had better time to process your transition, get in a good place yourself, maybe you're a little bit more skilled at doing some of the things we've talked about than you were at the beginning. Is that right?

15:35 Hans Mattson Yeah. So what I did just a few years ago, I asked the whole family come together, and that was about when we were in the New York Times or the girl and the interview with the Mormon stories. And we tried to discuss if the church make the family or do the love we have for each other make the family. And we can. We were important to understand that even if the church is not in hundred percent in our lives now, we still as a family and we believe and we support and we love and we have hope and faith for each other.

16:18 John Dehlin I love that. So having a candid discussion with family members that at least you're like, not all family members may say family comes first, but what you're saying was important to you was to make that explicit declaration that family comes first and that you want to offer that to other family members as a value that you could all share. Is that right?

16:41 Hans Mattson C.

16:43 John Dehlin Okay, Julie, I saw you nodding your head. Why don't you jump in and tell us what your wise thoughts are about all this?

16:50 Julie Hanks I agree with everything that's been said, and that is how I approach Mormonism with my kids being a fully active member. So, you know, we talk a lot about. About sexism and we talk about gays and, you know, like, how do you feel about that? Do you think, does that feel right to you? Do you think that was real in the scripture? You know, could there be something else that we're supposed to learn from that story? And so that's, that's kind of how I approach it and that this is a source of truth. And I found a lot of truth here, and so I'm going to share that with you. But when you grow up, you get to create your own life. So I think a lot of this is about developmental, healthy, emotional, mental development and relationship development. We also talk in my family a lot about attachment. And do you feel safe coming to me with any concerns? Because that matters more than anything else. And I have kids who are active kids who aren't. And the relationship always, always, always comes from first.

18:02 John Dehlin Beautiful. Beautiful. I want to follow up on that in just a second after I get Kirsten involved. But, Julie, I'm just going to ask you, and this is putting you on the spot, so answer whatever you're comfortable answering. What if you have a kid? How old are your kids? If you're comfortable sharing or what range?

18:19 Julie Hanks Yeah, 26, 23, 14 and 10.

18:21 John Dehlin Oh, wow. Okay. That's a big range. That's awesome.

18:25 Julie Hanks At home.

18:26 John Dehlin Okay, so a lot of people are asking about mixed faith relationships as well as staying in the church as a couple, both semi believing or believing. So this is a question I have for you that will pertain to a lot of people. What do you have if a kid flat out says, well, I know the prophet taught that, but I don't believe it. How do you handle that as a believer?

18:54 Julie Hanks Well, I haven't, I haven't had someone say specific thing. It's more, I don't believe in the church. So I have an adult child who just. I don't believe it. I haven't had those experiences and I accept that. I think as what we did when she was a teenager was just, okay, well, that's fine. I mean, it was, you know, painful. And we said, well, we go to sacrament meeting as a family. That's part of our tradition. And when you grow up and move out, you can do whatever your life however you want. But this is part of our family ritual. So that's how we handled it. And our relationship is great. It's not based on activity or not activity in the church. And we just have a really beautiful relationship that I treasure. And yeah, I just don't, I don't base everything on church activity. So I think that is helpful.

19:54 John Dehlin I love it. I love it. Okay, great. Julie Kirsten, did you have something you felt like you wanted to add to this kind of whole thread?

20:01 Kirsten Yeah, I'd love to. I agreed with a lot of what Hans said about being really honest with your kids. For me, we didn't limit it by age. We from the very time they were young. I have three daughters, 20, 18 and 15. And from the time they were really little, whatever they would come home with to talk about with church that we would either support or debunk or we were really open and honest about it ever since they were really little. So we didn't do it according to age. Like when they were a certain age, we felt like they were old enough to hear certain things. For us, it was always a matter of being open with them. Always a matter of things that we would tell them that we had questions about. Always encourage them to question, always encourage them to think. Well, know that that was what you were taught. But what do you think about that? What are your thoughts about that? So for us, yeah, it was very, it was always really open from the very beginning that they would have issues about women or anything else that they would see in the church. Since I have three daughters, like I mentioned, those were big issues. And so we have always been really open about that.

21:08 John Dehlin Excellent. Thanks, Kirsten. Julie, did you want to say something?

21:13 Julie Hanks Yeah. I think in this situation. Well, in all parenting it's important to differentiate general authority and personal authority. And that personal authority always trumps.

21:27 John Dehlin Does it.

21:28 Julie Hanks For me it does. For me it does. And that because I have the belief that people are inherently good and I want good things and my kids want good things. And so I think there's a lot of tension that has to be dealt with at. In that it's not just cut and dried, but, but they're both valuable to me and I have to wrestle with, with that. And if I have to choose, I choose what my personal authority has revealed.

22:00 John Dehlin I love that. But it's so it's my Mormon, my orthodox Mormon brain just like throbbed when you said that. Because what came into my mind is followed the prophet. Follow the prophet. And I'm just like, really? So if a kid says, my personal authority says this. And it's different than what the prophet has explicitly said. The idea that there's a Mormon in the world that would, that believes and who attends but would say to their kid, yeah, follow your personal authority over the prophet. I. There's a. I know that's possible, but there's a part of my brain that's like, that's not possible.

22:40 Julie Hanks Well, it depends. It depends on the context too. And if the kids are trying to be manipulative, I can sniff that out.

22:45 Margi Dehlin You know, intention matters.

22:47 Hans Mattson Right.

22:48 John Dehlin So my personal authority says, yeah, I

22:52 Julie Hanks don't have to be 21 to drink and it's not a problem, you know, so the context is important too.

23:00 Margi Dehlin And I think that's what's beautiful about the multi faith journey is that is the potential. The potential is this move away from conditional love. Follow the program. We're all the same to sort of this, gather round, we're all welcome at this table and let's like, how did you feel about that? And people are sharing and what you're introducing into your family is that there can be differences of opinion and everyone is welcome, everyone is safe, safe to share. We're respectful to one another. And it does this fabulous modeling of what intimacy is, of what it means.

23:40 John Dehlin That's our second point.

23:41 Margi Dehlin Right, exactly. She led us right into it.

23:45 John Dehlin But do your treatment of it.

23:47 Margi Dehlin Yeah, basically that the Multi Faith Journey has this wonderful opportunity to introduce a new framing of intimacy. And it involves openness and sharing with non judgment in a very safe way. For us, it even took the form of dinner after church. That's oftentimes when we would do it, we would be like, okay, what did you guys hear and what do you want to, you know, how did you feel about that? And everyone would share and we would have this wonderful discussion that was safe and beautiful with many times people feeling different things and modeling that we were all welcome. And then it also moves from the conditional love to the unconditional love where no matter what you say or what you believe, it's not going to affect how we feel about you or what we know about you to be true. And I think that's another beautiful kind of potential effect of this differences moving from the idea that we're all the same, follow the program, fall in line to know we're different, we're made to be different. And following your own voice is the most important thing, right? And that's what we would want you to do. And we're going to provide opportunities of reflection no matter how old you are to do that. And then also amidst that, hopefully having this emerging family culture, which is beautiful, where instead of that idea that the church is the culture, it's providing morality, it's doing its job, and then you come home and live right. But it's this idea that in those moments what you're really doing is you're building up family values, you're building up what intimacy means to your family, you're building up all these beautiful new ways of having the children understand themselves and in the world by way of your family culture, which they're around more than church, you know, so there's a great power there. What do you guys feel about that? Experiences with that, what you think about that? Anyone have comments?

25:55 Julie Hanks I do. Julie, when you're talking, I think, yeah, that's just good family life, that's good emotional health, that's good relationships. And I want to be really clear that you can have that in the church, you can have that out of the church. And a lot of it takes a leaving of the Garden of Eden experience for every family to go through that. And you can stay in the church, you can leave, you can be half in, but that's just healthy development and good relationships and secure attachments is what you're describing. But it usually, sometimes the leaving of the garden can be leaving the church, it can be death, it can be divorce, something that Makes you go, wait a second, I need to. There's something I'm not getting yet.

26:41 Margi Dehlin So thank you.

26:42 Julie Hanks That was beautifully said, Margie. Thank you.

26:45 John Dehlin Yeah, and it's. You're right, Julie, you're just talking about. And Margie, you're both talking about just healthy. Healthy intimacy, healthy attachment, healthy family culture. And the one thing that I think is fair to say is that sometimes we don't learn those. Like, I never had a lesson in. In Elders Quorum about healthy attachment to children. I never had. I doubt there was ever an enrichment lesson in Relief Society on, you know, intimacy and candor with children and openness. Right. Like these, I think. And I don't know if it's a normal experience or if it's rare or if it's just a certain percentage, but I don't think that the orthodox Mormon experience naturally creates a climate within the home of openness and honesty, of unconditional love, of rejoicing, indifferences, and of really putting as central the development of a family's own culture. I think somehow correlation and whatever happened in the 80s and 90s and 2000s within Mormonism made kids feel like they had to lie and hide from their kids. In many instances, that love was conditional based on obedience, that differences aren't to be celebrated, but instead conformity is what we're after. And the white shirts and the haircuts and the earrings all need to sort of echo and reflect that conformity. And then finally, a righteous family is a family most like whatever we see at church. And maybe I'm not feeling fair, but my point is that those beautiful principles that Margie and Julie echoed, I don't think they necessarily come natural to children and parents and families in 2017 in Orthodox Mormonism. Now, Julie, am I being unfair?

28:54 Julie Hanks I don't. Maybe slightly, but I totally agree.

28:58 Margi Dehlin I mean,

29:01 Julie Hanks if I had more of a say, I think that young men should be taught about healthy attachments and how to be an involved father and in addition to leadership and ministry. So I think you're being really fair. And I think then it goes to, like, what's the church's job? You know, steps way out. The institution steps way beyond what its job is. What I want my church to do is help me to always come back to Christ. That's, you know, so.

29:34 John Dehlin Right.

29:35 Julie Hanks There's too much information here. I don't. I want to focus on that. Am I. Am I a disciple of Christ? And how can I do that? And so, you know, I think that's a good question to ask. Is what is the job of the church? It can't teach us everything. Maybe it's teaching us too much at this point.

29:52 John Dehlin Wow, I love that. Kirsten, why don't you jump in?

29:55 Kirsten So I was just kicked off for a second, so you might have to catch me up for a second. Tell me a little bit about.

30:02 John Dehlin Oh, no, we were just talking about how some people's Mormon experience parenting and kids are that honesty and openness is not as valued as much as sort of secrecy and hiding who you are and shame. That instead of it being a paradigm of unconditional love, sometimes people learn a model of intimacy that involves conditional love. That instead of rejoicing in differences, there tends to be an emphasis on conformity. And that instead of having an idea of developing a strong, unique family culture, we're trying to figure out whatever the church's culture in and make our family the church culture with patriarchy and all that stuff. So that was. And I don't expect you to have responses on the fly about all that.

30:50 Kirsten Oh, I do, definitely. I was raised in the former, where it was all about trying to fit your family into the church mold. That that was the appropriate mold and everyone was supposed to fit in that. And that was something that I rejected growing up. Just I was very frustrated even as a teenager, wishing that my parents would express more doubts, wishing they would tell me a little bit more about those concerns. Feeling so strange that I would have these concerns as a teenager and feel like that my parents didn't have any concerns, that I think that's where I learned that I didn't want to repeat that behavior with my own children. So I don't think the church teaches that openness and trying to be. Trying to allow for differences with children. I do believe that they teach very much a conforming way to parent. And it was my own personal experience that told me that that wasn't going to be successful for me and my children. So I definitely wanted it the other way. To always talk about my concerns, always talk about things that I wasn't sure about so that they knew that it was okay if they had those concerns, to know that it wasn't expected from me or from anyone in the family, that they would be expected to conform just because they were told that that was the right thing to do.

32:11 John Dehlin Love it. Hans, anything you want to add?

32:15 Hans Mattson Well, I just thinking if you keep a commandment, you will have the blessing thereof. And as a father growing up, no having kids coming up, I tried to teach them that you have to do the right things and then you will have the blessings. And of course that's what kind of. I was kind of scared sometime when my kids come up to the teenagers and I have other ideas and I prayed more than ever and maybe have family meeting twice a week instead of once a week so I would be blessed as a father to take my family back to the heavenly Father. And of course also, you know, I was 70 and follow the brethren, Jesus is something, but the brethren represent him here on this earth. So we follow the brethren. You will be blessed, whatever, even if you don't think like them, you should follow them. And after a while you will be blessed and you will have a good spirit about it. So I'm afraid that I'm very much orthodox in my upbringing and my children and that's also a reaction I had from my grown up kids now because as I, dad, you are always taught us about the church. But now you change, don't you think? We also go through a real, real fake Christ and we look and we've been on mission, we've been in the temple, we've been. And we be with you out when you are a 70, preaching, teaching, showing the way. And don't forget, we also have a crisis to find out who you are and why you are and where will you be. So there, there is a thing. I have another thing I also think I like to say. Yes, we talk today like both the mother and the father are united. How to bring up the kids. But suppose that the mother is still really, really active in TBM and their father has questions. How will you teach, I mean your children to accept it, to be open and to be brave. And they turn eight. The mother says, oh, we gonna have a nice baptism. See, don't you see? If you can ask your father to baptize you, maybe he can feel the spirit, be active. The father says, how shall I get around this? I don't want to be doing things I don't believe in anymore. See, it's, it's. You have a perfect way, but then you have a reality as well.

35:10 John Dehlin Yeah, go ahead.

35:12 Margi Dehlin And I do think that is kind of what we're trying to address today actually is this sort of hoping that we can convey some important points where it's less even within a marriage if there are differences that both people can be welcome. And hopefully in those things that we were talking about a minute ago, that it can be like mommy believes this and daddy believes this and we act accordingly. And what do you believe?

35:44 Hans Mattson Sorry, who is the patriarch Clods is

35:46 John Dehlin playing devil's advocate now.

35:48 Margi Dehlin Yeah, I do think within that some adjustments have to be clearly made. And what we're speaking to is sort of the potential. So clearly there can be breakdowns. And today we're really trying to speak to instead of fearing it, instead of really here are some wonderful things that can be born out of it with the hopes that maybe you don't look at it as just a loss, as just a fear is this divisive thing, but that actually things can be born that are really beautiful and can even feel better to the believer, not just the non believer, but to the believer. And then John always talks about whatever you do, don't make your children the football. Whatever you do within the marriage, you know, be aware of what you're doing to the children. And I think most parents tend to be really wanting to do right by their children, really not wanting to harm them in that way.

36:48 John Dehlin And Hans, I totally sense where you're coming from that you're. You're basically saying you came from a very, you know, an extremely orthodox position and you know many people who are still there. And I think what I hear you saying is for a very, very orthodox person, they may not even be willing to have this conversation. They may not even be willing to even entertain that there's a lot of benefits to be had from a mixed faith relationship. That they may say, listen, spouse who's not believing, you either sort of shape up and get with the believing program or you either stay silent or this marriage is ending. But you're not going to be a co equal participant in this conversation. Is that kind of what I hear you saying, Hans?

37:42 Hans Mattson That's what I say. And also don't forget we have in laws, maybe they are very, very active.

37:50 Margi Dehlin We have different podcasts for this.

37:52 John Dehlin So Hans, we're going to. We're going to have specific episodes on how to deal in a mixed faith marriage.

37:58 Hans Mattson What I tried to say is I think it's important for the mom and dad to have the same idea.

38:05 Margi Dehlin It is so true.

38:06 Hans Mattson Open the mind, respect each other and when we learn that, then we can also talk to the kids. And that is perfect point.

38:14 Margi Dehlin We're making that assumption actually in having this conversation. We've made the assumption that the spouses have come together. Already had that discussion, aren't we? Clearly.

38:29 John Dehlin So Hans, I'll just back up and we'll touch on this briefly. And then we need to move. What I recommend is why can't the. Let's just say there's a believer and a Non believer or an orthodox and a semi orthodox. Why can't they have a conversation where either the unorthodox or the non believer says to the orthodox person, I want to present to you a new model for intimacy in our family. And these are the principles. And I just want to see if you are open to some new principles governing not only our relationship, but our relationship with our kids. And that's that we encourage openness and honesty in our family, that we teach our kids unconditional love as much as we can. That doesn't mean, like Julie said, that you get manipulated by your kids, but we do teach them that no matter what choices they make, belief wise, attendance wise, even behavior wise, our love and support is never in question. Right. That we're not. We may want uniformity, but we're probably never going to get it. So instead of fearing it and trying to control uniformity, let's find a way as a culture to. To celebrate that there will be differences and that we're going to grow as a family in intimacy together. I just hope that if we're dealing with a reasonable person, even if they're orthodox, that it's a worthwhile attempt to share those principles with them and then to say, is there a way that when we communicate with each other and with the kids, that these can be the principles that win. Like Julie said, family first. And I think it's possible. It's not going to work in every case, but I think it's possible. Julie, you work with a lot of couples, probably even mixed faith couples. Have you seen an approach like this work or do you think it could work?

40:33 Julie Hanks Yes, I have worked with many couples who have, who are on a different page than their spouse or partner. And. And I've seen it, actually. They've been able to take their relationship to a new level. And it's really about differentiation of self. The more differentiated we are from our partner, and that sounds like it's divisive, but it's not. The more differentiated we are, the more we can come together as an authentic human being. And so it. And it's. If you haven't gone through that or experienced that, hard to understand how differences actually can facilitate intimacy. But I love that model of differentiation of self. And that actually can improve how close you can be if you can let the other person be different and tolerate that and then still come together with empathy and connection.

41:34 John Dehlin I love that. Kirsten, are you wanting to say something?

41:38 Kirsten Oh, no. I love that concept of just making sure that everyone individually is differentiated. That the kids and the adults, that everyone has a unique presence in the family and that whatever their particular viewpoints, they don't need to be connected to anybody else's. And that whatever they're feeling is valid and just as. Just as a part of the conversation as anyone else's. So I think that not only do the adults need to have that differentiation, but I think that the kids do as well.

42:10 John Dehlin Love it. Love it.

42:12 Hans Mattson Julie.

42:13 Margi Dehlin Oh, it's okay. I also was gonna say a key component to that oftentimes in beginning in the marriage, just right up front, is I don't want to change you. I'm not out to make you something different. I support you, you know, for who you are. And I think that's a huge selling point to this idea of coming together in a multi faith situation.

42:39 John Dehlin And it requires that not only that the believer doesn't try and change the unorthodox or the non believer, it also requires that the non believer or the unorthodox doesn't try and change the believer. It goes both ways. And sometimes people who are angry in their questioning or disaffection think that they can throw manners out the window and try to change their believing loved one. And something we've talked about in the past is don't become the monster you ran from. Model what you hope to receive, if you hope to receive acceptance, if you hope to receive unconditional love, you have to offer it. Julie, what were you going to say?

43:23 Julie Hanks I was just. I was thinking about the tendency toward intergenerational enmeshment and how that differentiation, even of a whole family doing some different family tradition that may not be leaving the faith or, you know, that that creates a lot of anxiety and to recognize that and to empathize with the anxiety that happens in families when a change happen, when the change takes place. And. And that it's that that differentiation is scary. And the more enmeshed the family is, the harder it is for the individual or that separate family to kind of do their own thing. But it's worth it. It's a really.

44:10 John Dehlin Yeah, beautiful. Okay, so we've covered two of the three kind of beginning points that we wanted to lay out. I've loved the conversation so far. We're going to lay out one more principle, but in advance we've gotten some really good questions from the panelists or from both the viewers on Zoom and on Facebook Live. We're going to cover this one last principle and then what we'd love is for people to ask any questions or make Any comments that kind of touch on the three things that we've been covering so far, and then we'll see what time we have. But right now, for our Zoom viewers or our Facebook Live viewers, if you have questions or comments that connect to what we've talked about so far, we want to bring some of your comments and questions into this conversation before we move to those new points. So the third point that I just wanted to lay out that we thought about ahead of time is in addition, from changing what intimacy means and changing what authority means, the third thing that we're changing is going from a binary worldview to a multicolored spectrum worldview. So in Mormonism, we had this view that the world is divided up into righteous and evil, good and bad, that you're either with the church or you're against the church. And whether or not you are staying in the church and trying to raise your kids in the church or you're leaving the church, it is super important that you as parents and your children start modeling that transition from seeing the world in black and white to seeing the world in a multicolored sphere. And that's a totally different mindset. And so if you're raising your kids in the church, it's not about is what the thing that was taught good or bad is the prophet. A prophet or a fraud is going to sacrament meaning awesome or worthless? Is the church true or false? It's more like what was good about it, what was not so good about it, what wasn't great about it,

46:23 Margi Dehlin or healthy?

46:24 John Dehlin What was healthy, what was not healthy. Right. What worked for you? And it's going to be different for different people. So emphasizing that child A may have had a great experience, but child B may have hated it, Parent A loved it, Parent B hated it or liked it. And we're all practicing having a multidimensional worldview over this sort of black and white worldview. And again, I always like to call out my own fellow non believers or post Mormons. It is so easy as a post Mormon to just never shed the binary worldview. And all of a sudden the church is only a cult and the members are only brainwashed. And the world would be way better if all religions died. And that's just as immature, frankly. And so, Hans, you're smiling. Do you have a reaction to that? Do you like it or do you not?

47:21 Hans Mattson I totally agree. I totally agree. But that's another church that I grew up in.

47:28 John Dehlin Yeah, you're saying that the church, the LDS church that you grew up in doesn't support a multicolored spectrum worldview, in your opinion?

47:37 Hans Mattson No.

47:38 John Dehlin Yeah. Now, Julie, I bet you would say that it's getting there, it's making progress. Is that fair?

47:44 Hans Mattson All the members of the church, right?

47:48 John Dehlin Yeah. Distinguishing between the church, the leaders and the members. Julie, if Hans were to say this is impossible in today's Mormonism, what would you say in response?

47:59 Julie Hanks I'd say I'm really hopeful that we're moving in that direction and I hope to be a part of that movement. I also, I think it's really important to contextualize your points, John, that what we're talking about isn't unique to Mormonism. The binary thinking, the reductionism, that's just Western thought that Mormonism was born or reborn into, depending on your point of view. So in some ways we're behind the rest of the culture. But this way of thinking that you're talking about is not specific to Mormonism. I think the lens of the patriarchal culture and dominator culture really color how we interpret Mormon teachings. And so my, I want to take that, that lens off and experience Mormonism without the, the cultural baggage that, you know, the binary thinking, reductionism, conformity, all of those kinds of things. So that's the Mormonism that I experience or trying to experience and to create for other people.

49:09 John Dehlin What do you think, Hans? Julie. Julie says it's possible and she wants to be a part of making it more possible. Can you accept that?

49:18 Hans Mattson I hope that she really succeed with that together with Greg Prince and some other wonderful.

49:25 John Dehlin And Terry Givens and Fiona Givens and Patrick Mason and all those good hearted souls, Dan Witherspoon and Gina colvin and Thomas McConkey and all those armies of people fighting the good fight from within.

49:39 Hans Mattson But I just wonder if they don't have to take away a few scriptures from the, from the Doctrine and Covenants and so on to survive.

49:49 John Dehlin Well, sorry, Julie, do you have to take away a few scriptures now and then?

49:56 Julie Hanks Yeah, and I think that's possible and I think you have to reinterpret it. Reinterpret things differently. I mean, the scriptures were written in a different time and place. And so I'm hopeful.

50:11 John Dehlin How can you not do away?

50:13 Julie Hanks I'm honored to be listed with that group.

50:16 Margi Dehlin So thank you.

50:17 Julie Hanks I'm just like, what?

50:19 John Dehlin No, Hans, really. We already disregard as orthodox Mormons the Old Testament. And I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that even orthodox Mormons can and sometimes do. I mean, they do. They selectively pick and choose scripture all the time. So it's happening. It's been happening for a long time. But I understand your orthodox brain has a hard time saying this is possible because maybe for you and I, we didn't experience what Julie has and instead we experienced something very different.

50:51 Hans Mattson I just say I have met the 12 and that's 15. And if you talk to them like this, they think you are in another church that I belong to.

51:02 John Dehlin No. And I've met Gina Colvin.

51:04 Hans Mattson Die out sometime and then you probably have a lot of success.

51:08 John Dehlin No, it's true. But I've met Gina Colvin and she's saying in some sense, screw the Brethren. I'm doing what I think is right. So we'll see whether Gina Colvin or the Brethren went out. But Margie, you wanted to say something.

51:21 Julie Hanks I'm good.

51:21 John Dehlin Oh, you were tapping me.

51:22 Margi Dehlin I know. That was a love tap.

51:23 John Dehlin It was a love tap. Okay. All right. So, Kirsten, do you have a quick comment before we go to kind of some listener questions?

51:30 Kirsten Yeah, sure. I actually think that Julie and Hans are both exactly right. I think that what Hans is saying is absolutely true and what Julie is saying is absolutely true. And I've seen it both. I've seen both of those things. And I agree with Hans that I think that the higher up you go that the more they're going to only think in binary. That's just. That's what I think. I don't know any of the 15 like Hans does, but that's my impression, is that the higher up you go, the more limited the thinking. But like Julie, I've met lots and lots of people who have found this middle way, who have. Who are fighting from the inside, trying to make things a better way, trying to open up minds, trying to remind people that it's more than just binary. So I think that they're both right,

52:17 Margi Dehlin which shows non binary thinking. Okay.

52:23 John Dehlin Yes. Good job, Kirsten. You got the Margie seal of approval.

52:26 Margi Dehlin No, he's just trying to be funny.

52:31 John Dehlin Okay, so now I want. We're probably not going to be able to get to all those. Maybe we'll have a next episode where we cover some of those points.

52:37 Margi Dehlin Okay.

52:38 John Dehlin But because we have all these wonderful viewers and listeners, I want to make sure we give them a chance to contribute and to talk about their concerns. So we've got one posted from Kelly. Kelly asks, what are some ideas, strategies for talking to young children, for instance, six and under? So we've talked about talking with kids. We've laid out a few principles. Margie I would love for you to. We, we had children six and under as we were going through our transition. Am I putting you on the spot to talk about how we approached it?

53:18 Kirsten No.

53:19 Margi Dehlin One thing that worked really well for us, just some things off the top of my head was at that point we were reading from those illustrated stories from like you could do Book of Mormon or. And anytime we read, we would always stop and ask them what they thought of the message, what the message of the story was and what they thought about the message of the story. And it became a discussion ground at age level. Another thing is just to go over just like what we're saying and gather around the family table and ask what they learned in class that day and ask what they talked about and ask what they liked about it and ask how it felt to them to be. To hear those things or to so many of my children's like that. The questioning spirit began when they were little like so many important like their concept of God. For Maya emerged when she was like four about Noah's Ark, where she was like, you know, wait. God created the earth and created the animals and then wait and then in the end he kills the, you know, and it's these, It's a great way to connect with children in a child led way based on what are their observations and their feelings right where they are. No need to create anything extra or special. Just meet them right where they are.

54:42 John Dehlin So let the. You're saying, let the children lead and ask lots of questions and help practice within them figuring out what they think and believe. Is that what you're saying?

54:52 Margi Dehlin Exercising their own voice. And then whatever you're doing as a family, I mean if you do, you know, if you read or if you use texts or if you then integrate it into whatever you're doing. The idea of exploring ideas with them in that way and just remember that we tend to overvalue what we say. We tend to overvalue all these things. We're gonna like cram and teach them to our children and really in the end as they watch, they absorb how we love people. How do we, you know, navigate people ourselves who are different from ourselves. And remember that's really where I feel like the work is, is in that theme of embodiment. What do we embody ourselves is something that I would have parents reflect even more than the teaching what we want to teach or how we is sort of who we are in honesty or some of those other family values. Whether we embody that and how. So that's What I feel like children are really, really absorbing and learning and watching. Those are my thoughts.

56:00 John Dehlin Beautiful. I love what Margie said. I'm just going to add, as a doubting or questioning Mormon or a post Mormon, it's easy to get out ahead of the six year old and want to explain to the six year old papyra and hieroglyphics and polyandry. And what I would ask parents to be conscious of is differentiating between their stuff and their kids stuff. Because if a kid's not saying I'm confused about polygamy, tell me how this works or help me understand scriptural historicity which few six year olds are going to do. And believe me, I probably had a conversation about Book of Mormon historicity with my 6 year old in not the healthiest way because it was about me sometimes not about my kids. My little piece of advice is let the kids lead. Don't get out ahead of them. Don't make your stuff their stuff until they're bringing it up or until you know they've been exposed to it, if that makes sense. Now those are a couple things that come from me. Any panelists want to add how to talk to a 6 year old? Anybody just kind of okay, Kirsten.

57:15 Kirsten Yeah, I just have two things to say for that really quickly. Mine wasn't six. She was eight when she sat down next to me and said, and in this very serious voice was asking, why do we go to church every week? And that was back when I was believing and had a response and it was probably an instinct response. And then later I had to come back to her and say, I thought about it some more. I have a better answer for you that for right now. This is what we do as a family. But as you get older you're going to be able to make those decisions for yourself and will still support you. So that was one time. Second time she sat down next to me and said, will you still love me if I don't get married in the temple? And it was just the question coming from her. I didn't talk to her about any of my concerns or dis belief or whatever that she said. She asked me just like you're saying John and Margie, she asked out of me, will you still love me if I don't get married in the temple? And that was shocking to me because we have a lot of, we've never expressed any sort of like conditional love in that way. But it was nice to reaffirm to her.

58:18 John Dehlin Kirsten, we lost you for just a Second, you're frozen. So. So we'll have to kind of wait till Kristen rejoins us. Are you guys still with us, Julie and Hans?

58:30 Julie Hanks I am.

58:30 John Dehlin Okay. So, Kirsten, let's get you back on as soon as we can. Sorry for that. You were saying some really good things. Did you want to jump in, Margie? Did you have something to respond to? Kirsten?

58:42 Margi Dehlin I was. No, I'm good.

58:44 John Dehlin Okay. All right. Julie, do you want to pick up where Kirsten was unceremoniously booted? Follow up with anything you wanted to add about how to talk to a 6 year old?

58:55 Julie Hanks I think what you've. What she said and what you said is great. Let them lead and talk about what they care about. They don't care. I mean, they believe in all different kinds of, you know, fairy tales or tooth fairy.

59:12 Margi Dehlin So important.

59:14 Julie Hanks And so just let them be kids. Another suggestion about, like, if they're going to church and you have some concerns about that. What I like to ask my kids is, how did you treat people today? Was there somebody there that. That you reached out to or, you know, like modeling and teaching them how to just be good human beings more than just focusing on what doctrine you believe or don't believe.

59:41 John Dehlin So focus on behavior in addition to doctrine and beliefs.

59:47 Julie Hanks Correct.

59:48 John Dehlin And that's kind of what you were saying, right, Margie, that the kids are going to pay attention to how you act way more than some important thing you teach them.

59:57 Margi Dehlin Right.

59:58 John Dehlin Kirstjen, we got you back. I feel bad you got booted. Did you want to finish a thought or say something else?

1:00:05 Kirsten No, I love what you're saying that. I just really loved that how they were coming to. I waited for those questions to kind of come to me. And then you can reaffirm because then the scope is too big. What are you going to address as a believer or a non believer is scope is too big. So as the kids would come to you with their specific. This is what I'm worried about right now. This is what I'm thinking about right now. Then you can address those issues and like Julie was saying, affecting. Making sure you're talking about the behavior, the act, the unconditional loving of all people, rather than the teaching that maybe is or isn't being taught.

1:00:41 John Dehlin Love it. Margie, real quick. And then, Hans, we'll come to you if you've got a thing.

1:00:45 Margi Dehlin One thing I was just reflecting on really quickly. A reader wrote in and talked about the importance of literature too. And that's one thing we did enjoy with our kids, is just you can read storybooks that bring in, I'm thinking, even for the person that's not active but wants to have conversations. And it may not be through scriptures or, but we have a, like there are a number of books out there with just beautiful ideas. There are myths or Aesop fables or where it's this idea of talking through story, exploring through story and it's really, really valuable. We almost always had a book going in our home and it's how my kids read a lot of classics was just to have story infused with goodness and truth that we could talk about and identify. So it doesn't have to be in this religious context only. It's everywhere.

1:01:44 John Dehlin So rely on the power of story and literature, narrative to help out. Hans, any thoughts on how to talk to six year olds?

1:01:51 Hans Mattson No, I'm good.

1:01:53 John Dehlin Okay. All right, we've got an interesting follow up question from Doug. Doug writes, if you allow your children to share their own opinion about how things work, how important is it for you to share your own opinion with them? So Julie, is there a place for parents to share with their children what they think?

1:02:18 Julie Hanks Yes, there is a place and I think it depends on the child's age and their level of development. Generally, the younger the kid, the more important it is to talk about what the kid wants to talk about. And you know, as children mature, they can handle, they can handle more complicated and more complex issues. But you know, your six year old really doesn't care what you think or what you believe. They just, you know, they just want to play and be happy and, and so if you're talking about historicity or the Book of Mormon, they're like, who cares? I want to, you know, so let the child lead. And I think once they get into teenagehood, they'll ask you more. What do you believe about that at least as a parent?

1:03:10 John Dehlin No, I love that. Let me ask a follow up question to that for anyone in the panel. But Julie, you can feel free to respond to anyone else. What if it's a scenario where daddy believes but mommy doesn't believe and mommy sometimes doesn't go to church and six year old is saying, why doesn't mommy go to church?

1:03:32 Julie Hanks So I would say if I were, if it were my child, Mommy doesn't, well, I'm Mommy, so. But the other parent, well, when you get to be a grown up, you get to make all of your own choices. When you're a kid, parents have input. Mommy and I have decided that, you know, I'm going to take you to church. And when you're grown up you get to choose whether you want to continue that.

1:04:01 John Dehlin So your response was something different than I was expecting and it's different than I would have responded, which is actually really good because it gives us a chance to talk. Because what I heard from your response is maybe a hesitance for mommy to say to their six year old, mommy doesn't believe like daddy does. Mommy doesn't believe, but daddy does. And so daddy sometimes mommy doesn't go to church because mommy does other things. Now I don't want to unfairly characterize you, but is it fair to say you were trying to avoid that disclosure? And if, and so the follow up question is, is it okay for a parent to tell the six year old mommy doesn't believe anymore or would you, or would you say to be careful about that? Is there a disadvantage to that if they're six?

1:04:51 Julie Hanks No, I think you could say that. I guess I wasn't trying to avoid as much as laying a framework for other questions like, well, how come aunt so and so drinks every time we're at her house? Or how come so and so, you know, because they're grown ups and they get to choose their life. Well, how come they had a baby before they got married? Because they are grown ups and they got to choose their life. So I really wasn't trying to avoid and I think you can say I don't believe it, but daddy does. And I support daddy in taking you because there's some really great things there. I love that important not to triangulate the kid, not to use them as, you know, as the pawn. But I think you can say, yeah, I don't just like other preferences. I mean this is not just like other preferences but with different philosophies about parenting. I mean human beings, two adults are going to have a ton of differences if they're actualizing the human being. And so how do you handle those? Just kind of the same way.

1:05:52 John Dehlin Right.

1:05:54 Margi Dehlin One thing I love is the idea in addressing that as so that binary idea, mom believes, dad doesn't believe. I really love the idea of like mom really feels like she feels connected to other people and she feels really inspired when she goes to church. And daddy, instead of it being a not thing, it's like, and daddy feels really inspired, you know, reading or going out for a hike and being with nature. And that's where daddy feels inspired. And that way everyone has something that they have versus someone not having something and someone having it. That's just an idea.

1:06:32 John Dehlin I like that Hans, Hans, will the

1:06:38 Hans Mattson child have a chance to choose to stay home with the dad, or will she always go with the active member to the church? Maybe she says, well, I also like to go out in the nature and feel inspired inspiration from the creation. Yeah. Who shall? Do they have the free will or should I wait to be adults right before they do?

1:07:07 John Dehlin And Hans, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that that's a question that I think everybody has in their mind. It comes up in every workshop and retreat that we bring up. We're gonna deal with that in depth. I'm gonna give you a short answer, which is that's a really delicate issue that in a mixed faith, marriage has to be negotiated very carefully. And so it's not going to be. We're not going to have time to dig into that right now. But I'm going to validate and acknowledge that that's a huge issue that needs to be worked out.

1:07:41 Julie Hanks Yep.

1:07:45 John Dehlin Okay, so we are running up against sort of our time. Let's see. Mary asks if you are taking a break from ward attendance due to a faith transition. How do you explain that to your 11 year old who has been in church their whole life and doesn't seem to have any questions or concerns other than wondering why we aren't going to the Mormon Church anymore? All right, that's a great question for Mary. Any of our panelists have a quick response for Mary?

1:08:24 Kirsten Gosh, does that get a quick response? That's going to be a big response, right? I mean, that sounds like a big issue when she's having those concerns. Is someone willing to go with her and sit with her while she was there? When I transitioned before, one of my daughters, and she was concerned that she didn't want to. She was concerned about that. And I said, I will always come. Even if I don't believe. I will sit there. I will come with you every Sunday. I will come with you to anything that you're doing. Even if I don't believe I can still support you as my child. If that's something that you want to do and you believe this, I will be there for you. So I'm not sure that that's kind of a short response for an 11 year old. It depends on their family and how their parents feel.

1:09:07 John Dehlin Now, Kirsten, I think you hit it out of the park. I remember a friend 15 years ago who just yanked her kids out of church and it was really disruptive to a particular son and the son ended up a heavy drug user. And I'm not saying that can happen in or out of the church. And I'm not saying that had anything to do with how she yanked her son out of the church. What I am saying is she wondered to me whether she mishandled that. And I'm going to say, you know, people may not expect this from me, but I do not recommend yanking your kids out of church. Even if both parents no longer believe. I believe that the optimal approach is to. Just as you said, and this is what Margie and I did. Even when Margie and I both stopped believing, we would take turns attending church so that there was always one parent sitting with the kid in sacrament meeting so they didn't have to go alone. And we made sure to teach the kids that it was their journey that was most important. And we never wanted to make our journey their journey. And that as long as they wanted to stay in the church, we were going to let them. And that was just. That was really important to us. And that's actually. I tend to think you're going to have the best outcomes, even though it may cause you to have to take turns and it's going to be hard to keep the family unified. I tend to think that teaching the kid to respect their own journeys is probably more important than that. Every Sunday, everybody's unified all at once. Because that is a really. Hans, you touched on this. Your kids are saying to you now, wait a minute, dad, you're the one that taught us to believe in God. You're the one that taught us to believe, believe in Jesus. You're the one that taught us to be committed to the church. Don't you now go in and want to yank it all away from us. That's as difficult as your crisis of faith. So I think going slow with taking the kids out of church is something that I think is important. Hans, do you have a response to that? Yeah.

1:11:24 Hans Mattson You can reverse that and say if the kids don't want, want to go to church, but you like to go to church, should you stay home with the kid?

1:11:31 John Dehlin Then I may be a parent.

1:11:35 Hans Mattson Even if you stay home and one go with other ones, maybe if both

1:11:39 John Dehlin parents are believers and their kids who really, I mean, Julie, you talked about this. You said, I heard, use language that you tell the kids, church is what we go to in this family until you're an adult. Do you see there being a place for a 16 year old to have the choice to not go and maybe even for a believing parent to stay home with that 16 year old. What do you think about Hans question?

1:12:05 Julie Hanks I think it's a great question. Yeah. Like, how much. And again, it's that tension of how much conformity versus individuality. And to have a family, you have to have some rules and boundaries. Right. But I think there's a place to be. Stay home with that child if they know why. I mean, I think it's. Yeah, I think it's really an individual situation, too, but, yeah, I can see that happening.

1:12:30 John Dehlin Beautiful. That's a great. Kirsten and Hans and Julie, you are all giving great support, and these are great questions from our audience. So if I'm. Let's see, we have maybe, maybe time for a few closing things to talk about. Are you pointing to something?

1:12:52 Margi Dehlin Oh, no, I was looking at a question.

1:12:54 John Dehlin Okay, so I think we need to start working towards planning on closing this episode. I think there's a decent chance that we need to revisit this topic because we didn't even get to some of the other major points. And I'm sure you guys as panelists also had a lot to offer. So as we sort of start winding this to the close, what I want to do is ask Shandy and Amy if there's one or two really quick comments or questions that you think are relevant that you want to just post to the Zoom Chat window. Or if any of our Zoom participants want to post a quick question or comment, I want to invite you to do that. While I'm waiting for Shandy or Amy or Zoom participants to paste their questions, I'm going to ask my panelists to sort of prepare each of you to prepare a closing statement on a thing or two that you would want maybe to leave our audience with as we sort of close out this discussion on. On talking with kids during a faith transition. You too, Margie, if you've got one. I'm gonna. I'm seeing from Shani that we're good on Facebook, so maybe I'll bring in one more. Taryn writes, my kids are 5 and under, and in the beginning, we asked them if they'd like to go to church or go for a family hike. Not once since have they asked to go back. What's that, Margie?

1:14:38 Margi Dehlin I said, oh, that's more of a comment.

1:14:40 John Dehlin Yeah, it's a comment. So she's saying in this. Hans, I think this is what you were saying. If you give the kids a choice to go or not go, lots of kids are going to choose not to go. Now, Julie, I would hear you say, and I remember Dr. Laura talking about this, that giving kids free reign probably isn't always the best thing for kids. Is that what you're thinking, Julie?

1:15:02 Julie Hanks Yeah. Kids, I say to my kids, you have two bosses, you and well, three, you, me and your, and your dad. And so we have to work this out together. They don't at 5 get to choose everything they eat or where they go or, you know, so why should they spiritually? And my, and kids, even if they believe they're not going to want to go to church every week because sometimes it's boring. And so when my kids complain, I say I don't want to go to church either. But that's what we do. So let's go.

1:15:30 John Dehlin Right?

1:15:31 Julie Hanks You know, that's our ritual. So hopefully it'll not be boring this time.

1:15:38 John Dehlin And I'll even say even as a total non believer, there were times when my kids, I really wanted my kids at church. And even to this day, I still think there's so much strength in having them be confronted with a variety of worldviews and a variety of opinions and even bigoted worldviews and opinions to help them understand belief, understand believers, understand the religious tradition from whence they came, understand conservative points of view that aren't their own, and then coming home and processing it. And so even as someone now who's been excommunicated and who doesn't hold a lot of orthodox Mormon beliefs, for those of you who are questioning or transitioning or even post Mormons, I still hold the position that there is a lot of positive benefit to be gained from going to church. And not just the hard, bad stuff. There is a lot of love and service and charity and good teachings that you experience at church that we should be open to. Okay, really quick, I've got another. We'll have one more question from, or question or comment from our listeners. And this is it. This is from Emily. Any question, any suggestions on dealing with true believing or orthodox parents of my child's friends trying to pressure my daughter to return to church. Now, Julie, you're a believer and you're shaking your head. Why are you shaking your head?

1:17:21 Julie Hanks I'm shaking my head because that is a boundary violation. And as a parent, I think it's your responsibility to go and just say, hey, this is what our family's doing right now. I don't want you to talk to my daughter about coming to church. And I know that that that's important to you and I respect that. But as the mom, this is my request.

1:17:44 John Dehlin Can you imagine doing that to somebody to like A neighbor. Like, I think Mormons aren't. They haven't learned, they haven't had their boundaries respected. So they're not comfortable erecting boundaries in others. Like, is that a conversation, Julie, you've had in some way, shape or form with a neighbor or a church member or a leader?

1:18:05 Julie Hanks Well, I haven't had that because I go to church.

1:18:10 John Dehlin So. No, no, no, not that specific question. But that's sort of a candid, boundary erecting conversation. Like, there's a lot of people that are like, I can't talk to people that way. Well, I remember when I had to have the conversation with the bishop, please do not interview my children without me being present. So I remember having a conversation like that.

1:18:31 Margi Dehlin We've had a lot. Clara's had some exciting experiences with leaders or even friends talk, kind of pressuring her and talking about our family. And I agree. I do think it's kind of a boundaries moment. And like any good boundary, you start with commonality and love and appreciation for a deeper thing. So it might look like, you know, I know you really, you know, value Clara and are really trying to do what's best for her, and you're connected, concerned for her at this point. And I'm also going to have to ask that maybe at this point in time that you kind of hold off on comments like that. What ended up happening in Clara's case is it really made her distrust the leader that was doing it, because, of course, it pitted Clara against family and then family. Do you remember what I'm talking about? Family ended up winning there. But in the case of, like, parents of a friend, it's a great way to just say we love that they play. We love their relationship. Boy, do we appreciate your daughter and what she brings to our daughter. At this time, this issue, we're going to ask if you could please, like, keep it off the table. It's sensitive for her, which I'm sure you might understand, and it ends up making her feel sad. And I know you wouldn't want to do that. So. So we're just asking at this point, but, like, with a lot of love and warmth and assuming the best of someone's intentions and not, you know, that's just my off the top of my head response.

1:20:05 John Dehlin Tiffany writes, we really have to get over our fear of differences. It is a major impediment to intimacy and connection. Hear, hear, Tiffany, and thanks for joining us. Okay, so we're at the close of this episode, and what I want to do now is give each panelist A chance to give a final thought. Kirsten, do you mind going first?

1:20:27 Kirsten Not at all. I think for my kids transitioned when they were teenagers and my oldest was 19. She had just had her mission call and then she went from that to resigning. So it was pretty drastic. But my. I think for kids, whenever they're going through a transition or as adults, transitioning with your children, I think is what we've been talking about is so important. Just the open communication, I think no hiding. That just can't be any hiding. Kids, especially teenagers, can sense hiding. So if they just really acknowledging and giving them, giving them validation for wherever they are on their journey and then being honest with them about where you are on your journey so that they can try to more clearly see you, what your struggles are and that it's more of a. More of a shared experience, no matter who's the one who's experiencing the pain.

1:21:23 John Dehlin I love that, Kirsten. I remember realizing that I never want my kids to be able to accuse me of hiding from them or lying to them. And what a wonderful way to model vulnerability for you as a parent to be able to just be vulnerable and say, I, this is hard and it's messy and I don't know what I believe right now. And I'm sorry it's hard for you, but it's hard for me. And can we be with each other, you know, and love each other even when it's hard. And what a beautiful thing that can be. All right, Kirsten, we've loved having you. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:21:56 Kirsten You're welcome.

1:21:57 John Dehlin Hans, you're next.

1:21:59 Hans Mattson Yeah. Well, in my mind, while thinking about one mistake, President and his counselor knocked on the door and come in and told me that I'm forbidden to talk to my wife and my children about my doubts and I should not talk to any members at all at church. And that was really tough suggestion, I think, at least for me. But of course, I didn't. I didn't follow that. So obviously you're right. Well, if I look at my kids and grandkids, maybe it's a little different to live in Scandinavia and there is in living Utah, because you're very unique if you are a Christian or even believe in something. And to be a Mormon is even more unique. So all the grandkids are so happy they don't have to go go to church because all their friends, every neighbor, everybody, are not going to church. So now they can do what their friends are doing. And the whole family, especially the family, feels they have time to do things together. It's been a real blessing for them, as they say now. But they also say like this. We are quite happy for the church, and we have that with us, and we move on from that. And the thing I always think about is, because when you look at a little kid, a child is so unique. I mean, and they are different. You can't say you have to do this. Because what I like to give kids is hope for the future, faith. I would like to give faith in their lives that I believe in them, they can do things. And, of course, love, faith, hope, and love is. I mean, that makes all the difference. And if, like you said, Margie, showing what that is in your own life is more important than to preach for them and tell them what to do. So, really enjoyed this conversation. I really enjoyed this time, and I learned so much. And I'm so happy that we have developed to talk to children and talk to family, to be nice, to be agreeable, and to listen to opinions from everybody. And I think that's really, really, really what I want to be myself. And I hope everybody that have questions or doubts also shall do that. And that's what I wish I can do with my own brothers. We haven't talked for two. Two years. And you can't do it because then I. Yeah, I don't have to say anything, but it's warm, the place they want me to be in.

1:25:08 John Dehlin I'm so sorry, Hans.

1:25:10 Hans Mattson And it's tough.

1:25:12 John Dehlin Well, we love your thoughts, your participation. We're so grateful you joined us. We love your perspective. We're grateful for your courage and example. We're sorry for the pain that you've faced as you've been honest. But we're so glad to have you on. We're excited about your book. So please give us a chance to help you promote your book once it's ready.

1:25:38 Hans Mattson I love to be in contact again.

1:25:42 John Dehlin All right, Hans, thanks for joining us. All right, Julie, you're next.

1:25:48 Julie Hanks My final thoughts are these opportunities, where there are differences, whether it's parent, parent, parent, child, are opportunities for us to grow. And whether you're inside or outside or halfway in the church, we all. We're here to grow. We're here to expand and learn, and these opportunities provide that for us. And so go toward it instead of fear. My most valuable growing experience was when my daughter left the church. And I learned so much about myself that it's invaluable. Go toward it.

1:26:30 John Dehlin Brilliant. Brilliant. And, Julie, if people want to seek out some marriage counseling or individual Counseling. How do they get ahold of you?

1:26:41 Julie Hanks Yeah, I'm actually not practicing clinically right now but I have Wasatch family therapy is my clinics and I have therapists there. And then I'm doing just individual coaching online and through phone and that's drjuliehanks.com Brilliant.

1:26:57 John Dehlin All right, thank you so much for joining us. We love having you.

1:27:01 Julie Hanks It's great to be here.

1:27:03 John Dehlin Next time I'll serenade you with a different song.

1:27:06 Julie Hanks Love it.

1:27:07 John Dehlin Come back and see us.

1:27:08 Julie Hanks Okay, I will.

1:27:09 Margi Dehlin Margie, what would I say? I mean this is such a big topic. We really just got through the three major shifts. We had all these tips on communication and all like the kind of getting into the gritty of discussing and how to communicate. So I hope we still maybe we'll revisit that.

1:27:33 John Dehlin We'll have a follow up episode. At least one, if not many.

1:27:36 Margi Dehlin Okay, so I don't know, I kind of feel like I'm echoing Julie a little bit here. But I can't help but say there is something unique about a multi faith situation. To me it's not that it doesn't exist or can't exist in other situations, but it is a unique opportunity where those you love most and you're surrounded by offer you this chance to love differently, to experience. Just like we were saying, to experience not only hearing your own voice but also being able to share it with those we love and know that it will be treasured and see safe to do so. And then lastly to again look at the world in this spectrum. This. It's a unique opportunity that I feel like with people we've coached and people we've seen, it really works out beautifully. When it works out, it works out beautifully. And people say over and over again that their family life is better, their marriage is better and so it might

1:28:38 John Dehlin be their relationship with their kids is stronger.

1:28:42 Margi Dehlin And so it's this thing that I think it's a unique opportunity that maybe I would even plug a little optimism and some you can even be excited.

1:28:53 John Dehlin This is a gift.

1:28:54 Margi Dehlin Yes. Like it's something to be harnessed. And then again about the differences thing just because I think it's this major shift that has to happen within this is just view differences as oxygen to a relationship. It provides this necessary sort of fresh air, things to discuss, things to kind of work through versus like a stale. You're living really with another version of yourself for your whole life and with, you know, that view differences as oxygen. It's beautiful and it allows you to come alive in a new way in your relationships and with yourself.

1:29:34 John Dehlin Beautiful. All right, so I'm just going to say thanks to all our panelists. It's been brilliant. Thanks to everyone who joined us through Zoom and through Facebook Live, and they're going to be listeners who listen afterwards. All of you make a difference.

Episode 23

0:19 John Dehlin It is time to introduce our wonderful panel for today. Are you excited? You got the Margie excitement there panel. And I know, I personally know two of our three panelists. So I'm going to start with the two lovely women that I know and then we're going to talk to the lovely woman that we don't know yet. And I'm going to start with the person that I met first, which is Lisa Butterworth. I met Lisa years and years ago when she started Feminist Mormon Housewives, the famous Mormon blog. Since then, she's gone on to become a licensed counselor. So, Lisa, why don't you introduce yourself for a bit?

1:01 Lisa Butterworth Well, I feel like that kind of covers it. Feminist Mormon Housewives is. Well, I guess it'll be 13 this year. 13 years old. I don't remember you being around that long ago. I think you came in a few years later with your Mormon stories stuff. I don't, I don't remember Mormon Stories

1:19 John Dehlin was 2005, I think you started. Did you start in 2004? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:25 Lisa Butterworth So. So let's see. So, been around a long time, seen lots of changes through, you know, the Mormon, the sort of progressive Mormon weird space. Love my new job. I'm at Symmetry Solutions with Natasha Helfer Parker, who you have on here quite often. And I mostly focus there on doing sort of faith transition work with people who are going through faith transitions. And I also have a job here in Boise that I, you know, see a different clientele here. And I like that a lot. I like it a lot. And so that was transitioning from being a feminist Mormon housewife to, I guess, a feminist Mormon counselor.

2:10 John Dehlin Got it. And do you do depression and anxiety and marriage stuff and all those typical issues?

2:17 Lisa Butterworth I do depression, anxiety, marriage stuff. I do a lot of faith transition stuff. And you know, just because there's feminists in the title of my blog doesn't mean you have to be a feminist to come see me at all. I see a lot of really conservative people. I work in Idaho. It's not, it's, it's not about that at all. But. And I see people on all levels of this faith spectrum, people who, and mixed marriages where people are on different levels of belief.

2:47 John Dehlin So excellent. So if any of our listeners are in Idaho and are looking for a therapist, especially if they're no Boise, they can look you up. Is that right?

2:55 Lisa Butterworth They sure can. And they can do online, too. I do online.

2:58 John Dehlin Beautiful. Well, welcome, Lisa. It's so nice to reconnect.

3:02 Lisa Butterworth It's nice to see you too. John, we haven't talked for a while.

3:06 John Dehlin Let's fix that. All right. The next person we want to introduce is Mary Mealing. Mary is one of our favorite people in the world. We met her a few years back and she was really supportive, her and her husband Don on these retreats that we've been holding. Mary and her husband Don were some of the were the first sort of hosts for these wonderful retreats. Mary, why don't you introduce yourself a bit to our audience.

3:34 Mary Mealing Be glad to, John. Thanks. And I adore you and Markie as well. John, it's a pleasure to be part of this and to be invited and I'm sorry Don couldn't be here. He is significant other probably has some good comments, but I'm going to try to hold it down. I am from Park City, Utah, born and raised in the church. But I guess now I'm kind of an ex feminist Mormon housewife because I as a living stay home and support my husband and family and enjoy doing that very much. It's a calling I would have chosen given any other calling in the world. So that's a good fit for me. So hopefully I'll have something to contribute to today's discussion. I have four beautiful children who I adore and spend a lot of time supporting them and my grandkids. So I am excited to be here.

4:20 John Dehlin Thanks, Mary.

4:21 Natasha Helfer Yeah.

4:23 John Dehlin All right. And our, and our last guest is someone I've yet to meet. So Lisa, tell us a bit about yourself.

4:34 Lisa Kais Hi, I'm Lisa Kais. I am like Mary, I guess. My career was my three children, 38, 35 and 25. And I have three grandchildren, 11 and two five year old twin boys. And I spent most of my life in the young women's program in church. So I know the 12 to 18 year old group of youth very well and I loved doing that while I was in the church. But the last two years I had a faith transition and so we no longer go to church. So I have two kids that are out of church. My daughter's husband is still very in. So that leads to a mixed faith marriage which they've had some ups and downs but they're working it out. So I'm super glad about that. And my youngest son is on the fence. So that's my story.

5:37 John Dehlin All right, it sounds like you have some real world experience to share with us.

5:41 Mary Mealing Hope so.

5:43 John Dehlin All right, so the way we planned today was to review just to kind of list the three main themes that we discussed last time and then dive right into some New themes that we didn't cover last time. And Mary, Lisa and Lisa, just to make sure you guys are up to speed, if you haven't had a chance to check out our first episode, we talked about three principles to guide your discussion of having a faith transition with your children. The first was around authority. And basically it's this opportunity with your children to have them start thinking about, thinking of themselves as their main sort of center of authority. So whether or not they're remaining active in the church or that's not so important. But as. Let's just say that they are. Let's just say that your family is a mixed faith family. Some are in, some are out. Sometimes you go, sometimes you don't. You know, when they're told what to do at church, when the bishop says this or the prophet says that, or they read something that Joseph Smith said, Emphasizing with your child the idea that they can receive information from lots of sources, including their parents, but that this becomes a great opportunity to start thinking about what they feel is right and ultimately learning to feel and think and connect with what feels right inside of them and feeling the power and the authority to kind of decide to believe or obey or follow or not based on their own conscience. So that's principle one we talked about. Do you want to talk about the second?

7:33 Lisa Butterworth Sure.

7:33 Natasha Helfer It's this introduction of a new model of intimacy. So kind of moving away from the conditional love model to more of an unconditional love model. Also with that, because you're not being judged as to whether your behavior is measuring up. More openness, more honesty and safety as sort of the nest of the relationship, rejoicing in differences. The goal is no longer that we're on the same page. That's not the sign of success that we're doing, but that there are differences within every family from person to person, and that we embrace those differences. And it gives us this great soil, if you will, to practice communicating in respectful ways and loving ways where everyone can feel safe and validated. And then lastly, this idea of building an emerging family culture. So it's not that the church provides, is the only place for values or for culture that you as a family, sit down and start creating on your own. What do we love? What do we value? What are we about? And having everyone be involved in sort of the creation of your home and family and this sort of new tradition.

8:52 Lisa Kais Yeah.

8:53 John Dehlin And if church activity wants to be a part of that family culture, that's great. And if you decide that the church isn't working for you and some are all then not. But it definitely is an empowering thing. The final thing we talked about was this idea of getting rid of this binary worldview that everything is either true or false, good or bad. That's easy to pick up sometimes when you're raised in certain religious traditions. And it's really good to teach a kid that Joseph Smith wasn't all good and he wasn't all bad, that the Mormon Church isn't all good and it isn't all bad, that your parents aren't all good or all bad, that they are going to do good things and bad things. And again, then it just becomes a matter of incorporating some or all or none of your religious upbringing into your current and future life. So those are the three principles that we just wanted to touch on. And now what we're going to do is dive into some remaining topics. And as we do, we're going to cover each topic. Margie and I will kind of more or less take turns and then we're going to open it up to our panel to discuss how these topics may or may not sort of relate in their lives.

10:09 Natasha Helfer And I might think about these topics as sort of like, oh, things to remember maybe as we're starting out, because this may feel a little bit different to some families that are trying it out. So these are just sort of points to remember or things to consider as you start trying to have these more open conversations where people are hopefully more able to look inside and share what they're feeling as you kind of go about this process.

10:40 John Dehlin Great. So the first principle we wanted to talk about was the idea of going slowly. Sometimes when a parent experiences the jolt of maybe the church not being what they thought it was, they almost want to just like sit down, have this family home evening, lay out the entire sort of like post Mormon non plan of salvation, talk about every single problem in Mormon history and the truth claims and just sort of dash to smithereens, the orthodox testimony that they themselves had raised their kids with. And that's a natural sort of instinct. You don't want your kids to believe things that aren't true that could be harmful. You don't want to ever lie to your kids or misrepresent things. And at the same time, you know, if your kid has experienced a year or five years or 10 years or 15 or 20 or even 30 or 40 years of Orthodox devout membership, there's no way that one or five or 10 or even a hundred conversations are going to ever sort of solve or fix or unravel anything. It's going to be a multi year, sometimes a multi decade process. And instead of feeling like you have to sort of drop this huge bomb and kind of explode in their worlds, you should feel very comfortable to wait weeks or months or even years if you need to, and slowly and very deliberately and thoughtfully communicate with your kids. Now, Lisa, I'm going to ask you to go first and as a mental health professional, maybe talk a bit about what your thoughts or reactions are to that first principle.

12:29 Lisa Butterworth Well, I like it. I think that it works well with the idea that, you know, for everybody who's been through a faith crisis, you probably understand that there's a process of grieving that goes along with going through a faith crisis. You lose so much, you lose your sense of community, you lose your sense of belonging. Often you use your whole view of

12:49 Mary Mealing how the world works.

12:51 Lisa Butterworth And so the thing that, the thing about grief is that it takes time. Like, you can't, you can't cheat grief. Grief is a monster that will take its due. And often when we're in a place of grief, we do not, like, hold a space for other people to grieve. And so the minute you start telling your family members about your transition process, they're going to also be going into a grief process because they're grieving the loss of feeling like you belong with them in, like, your united sense of familyhood or that your eternal family, like, there's going to be a loss for them as well. And sometimes people, I feel like, will go into this idea of, I need to be authentic, I need you to see the real me. And that's a normal part of the grief process of, like, being like this changed me. And now I need people to see the real me. And that's part of the grief process of, like, making a new normal. And, and, and then like, letting yourself know that the minute you start telling your family members, there's going to be a grief process for them too. And they're going to have denial and they're going to have anger and they're going to have like, all of these things and a messy why it's going to come at you. And if you haven't grieved yourself, if you haven't figured out how to differentiate your grief from their grief, if you haven't, like, done the work, be comfortable with this new you, then, holy crap. Two groups of people going through the grief process at the same time, but grieving different things.

14:28 Mary Mealing Goodness, that's a lot.

14:30 Lisa Butterworth So time is a really, really good Tool. And I think that, you know, it's one of those boundary things that we as Mormons often don't have a space of saying, you know, bear your testimony right now. Well, now I need to not bear my testimony right now. You know, like this, like it's putting in a boundary, a safe place for you to grieve until you're in a safe place to let your family members grieve too. So that's sort of what comes to mind for me.

14:59 John Dehlin Thank you for introducing that notion of grieving. We could probably do a full series of episodes on grieving and what it means in a faith transition. Mary, talk about your reflections and also lessons learned from how you communicated with your kids.

15:16 Mary Mealing Thanks, John. It was interesting because when I made a few notes about today, time was my first thing that I wrote down as well. Give it some time. And it's important to have that time, I think, especially with your kids, because when you first are making the transition, whether it's now, you're upset, you're angry, you are grieving, but you're also kind of excited and you have enlightenment. And it's easy to want to share that with your kids as well, to say, did you know? And what about this? And I think it's important to recognize you're there, you've come there on your own journey, but they may not be at that moment in time. And so to be careful wading in too exuberantly as well as with anger. So never use anger, grief, authority, excitement in the moment. Give it some time, and time will mellow some of these things. I know for me, it's been a few years and I feel I have a little bit of a more mellow perspective and some distance. And so time is really, I think, crucial. And timing is also really crucial. And I think you need time to rebuild trust. When I first my son came out to us that he wanted to leave the church when he was 17. So I've had 15 years now or so of time to see how that distilled down. And I actually had a phone conversation with him preference to this and asked him, what did we do right? What did we do wrong? And it was interesting to hear his perspective over time because the one thing we did right was to not to be patient, to let him on his own journey discover where he needed to go. And in that process, he was able to discover what he said to me, something interesting. He said, because you gave me space and patience and didn't give me ultimatums or conditions, I was able to not be anti anything he says, I'm not anti Mormon. I'm not anti God. I was able to express and discover what God meant to me as an adult. So that was interesting that. Just giving him that time. Of course, in my mind, as a believing member, I thought time was going to give him more spiritual experiences, more life opportunities, so he would understand the truth. But nonetheless, the time helped us both, I think. And for my daughter, I think she still needs time. She's feeling very upset. She's still a very believing and faithful member, as is her husband. She feels I changed the roles and I need to respect that and give time for our relationship to develop again, some trust. So I think time's the good element.

17:44 Natasha Helfer Very good.

17:45 John Dehlin Beautiful.

17:46 Natasha Helfer Yeah. And what's implied in that, too, a little bit. I feel like Mary is space, too. Allowing people to have a little bit of space to work through their emotions. Yeah.

17:56 John Dehlin All right, Lisa K. What do you want to share?

18:01 Lisa Kais My experience has been that the more you push, the more they want to push back. And so no matter what it is that I'm trying to communicate with my kids or grandkids or anyone else for that matter, if I push, they can get super defensive and want to push back. But if they just allow open communication, then it flows. And I think that especially as moms, nothing bad about dads, but especially about moms, because we kind of have that nurturing thing or whatever, our gut usually is right about our kids, you know, like when it's time and when it's not time and when it's been too much or not too much. And love, I just think love always has to be the basis. We loved our kids with or without religion. We love our kids no matter what is in our lives. And if they can feel that consistency of love, no matter what, no matter where we're at religiously, I think that that is super healing for the relationship as well. That's my two cents.

19:06 Natasha Helfer I agree. And with that idea, being forceful, I think oftentimes that comes with that urgency. You have a sense of urgency that, like, this needs to be the conversation or. And I think it is important with the Slowly to remember. Really think of it more like you're opening the door to a room and you're going to be visiting that room regularly. There's no need to, like, feel like you have to do it all in one big false swoop, that it's really just opening the door to a place that was, you know, a little. It was closed off before and you'll be revisiting that place and having these conversations a lot.

19:43 John Dehlin Yeah, excellent. Great feedback, panel. You guys are superstars. The second recommendation that we had or theme is be age appropriate. And so, you know, trying to communicate with the four year old can be different from an eight year old, can be different from a 12 year old, can be different from A 14 year old, can be very different from a 20 or 30 year old. And so sometimes we're so anxious, we're so eager. I remember with my own kids, I think I mentioned this before, trying to explain to them when they're like 8 or 12, what an Egyptian papyrus was and sort of what the Rosetta stone was and how, you know, and the history of that and what the book of Abraham had claimed to be and all that. And I'm not saying that's bad. Like, you know, teach your kids about civilizations and history and if you want to talk to them about that stuff and you feel like it's appropriate, go for it. What I noticed with my kids was that they weren't interested in that at that time. That, you know, my little 8 year old wasn't like really even wanting to think about that level of complexity or something so difficult. They were sort of on the level of are mommy and daddy okay? Is our family going to be okay? Are you know, are we still going to be happy? You know, and I just realized that I was sort of imposing my interests and level of concern onto my children in a way that kind of wasn't age appropriate. Again, do you talk about polyandry and pedophilia with an 11 year old? You know, maybe you do, but you know, the question is, and then the suggestion is to be thoughtful about when and how you discuss these sorts of issues depending on age. All right, let's have Mary, why don't you start this time? Mary, what are your thoughts on that?

21:54 Mary Mealing Oh, I definitely think that's wise. Certainly my children are old and I can just, you know, have conversations with them as adults. But even then, sometimes I step in too far and I just like Lisa was saying, I know my daughter, I know and I've pushed too far and it's like time to back up. But with her children, it's interesting. I had an interesting experience with her 8 year old daughter. We were at a park, there was a not, I think it was a Catholic church. It doesn't matter. It was a different religion than Mormonism. When people were coming and going on a different day than she was used to celebrating the Sabbath and she noticed that. And so trying to Age typical. I had already transitioned out at that time, but I was trying to be very respectful of my daughter's desire not to confuse her daughter and she had asked me not to do that. So her daughter turned to me and said, grandma, what, what are they doing? And I said well they're going to church. Well why are they going to church? And she said well what kind of church is it? And I said I believe it's a Catholic church. And she said well but that's different than our church. But our church is the right one, isn't it grandma? And so a teaching moment. Of course it wasn't the time because she's 8 to say, well actually let me explain. So I simply turned to her and I said, all of us follow what is in our hearts and for those people, what they're doing feels right in their heart. And what you're doing, if it feels right in your heart, that's what you should do. Opening the door for later her to understand that maybe heart has gone a different direction, but not sitting down and saying, well let me explain. There's many beliefs and one is right, one's wrong. So I think it was helpful to try to be appropriate for her age and just give her. And she seems satisfied with that, which is I think what you find they're satisfied with the answer.

23:34 Natasha Helfer Beautiful.

23:35 John Dehlin Yeah. And you introduced the topic. If you're, if it's grandchildren you're talking to, being really, really respectful of the parents. I mean we wouldn't want anyone interfering with our role as parent to our own children. Does being a grandparent give us the right to disrespect our children for the sake of grandchildren? And that's a really great point, Mary Lisa K. What might you add?

24:05 Lisa Kais I think that questions are huge, like asking them questions because I think that that gives them the opportunity to take the lead so you don't shove more down their throat than they're ready to handle. So my little 5 year old grandson's gonna ask a different question than my 11 year old granddaughter and then have follow up questions. Cause I love the idea to have them think for themselves. So what do you think about that? Or how does that make you feel? Or does that feel good to you or does that not feel good to you? And I love the init and then them thinking and then the follow up questions that come after it and that kind of leads to age appropriateness because they are the ones leading the conversation.

24:52 John Dehlin Love that.

24:53 Natasha Helfer Huge.

24:54 John Dehlin Now Lisa B. I remember listening to Dr. Laura once saying that it's irresponsible for a parent to just let their kids feel empowered to have their own thoughts and beliefs, that it's really a parent's job to sort of give their kids a set of beliefs. And if once they become an adult, they choose to not believe or take a different path of beliefs, that's fine. But according to Dr. Laura, and I don't even think she's a mental health professional doctor, but for her, she just had this idea of, you need to tell your kids what to believe as a structure for childhood. That's what responsible parents do respond to that. And then just any general thoughts you have about age appropriateness.

25:41 Lisa Butterworth Well, you know, to some degree, like, I don't. I don't want to say she's wrong, but she's. To some degree, we all impose our values on our kids because we can't help but do it, because we live our values and they see it. And often what we say our values are, but what we're performing are different, and our kids see that too, you know, and so, you know, like, definitely, I see one of the problematic features of the way that we often approach teaching Mormonism is that we say, here are your values, and the kids never have to, like, own them. Like, I don't remember ever sitting down and thinking about, well, why does chastity matter? I just would been told my whole life that chastity mattered. And so then I believed it mattered. But if you'd have asked me, I wouldn't have been able to articulate that at all. Like, and that's often true of most of our sort of morals and beliefs. And our moral belief system is incredibly complex. You know, there's all kinds of systems about which we're trying to, like, balance things that are. That pull us in two directions. You know, like, we all have a belief like you were talking about earlier, this belief in authority and finding our internal authority. Right? Like, that is a very sort of Western, white, liberal American belief in, like, finding our own internal authority and believing in it. In most communal cultures, there's, like, there's an outside authority that is very important to respect your parents, respect your elders, you know, follow the rules. And that's true most places that that's a value that people hold dear within their culture. And so, you know, like, there's. There's Mormon culture, but then there's other cultures. Like, if you're not white and Mormon, you're gonna have a different view of what authority means than a white Western, liberal Mormon is gonna have. And. And Then that's gonna be. I mean, like, moral beliefs are so complicated, and they have push and pull. Like, it's never. It's, you know, like individual rights versus communal rights constantly pulling on each other. Right? And so, like, allowing people to really explore those really complex questions for themselves. That's the thing that makes life fascinating and beautiful and interesting. Whereas if you just say, here's your values, boom, then that can be really confusing. And often that's where we get in trouble with not living our values because we didn't pick them. And so, like, if we don't know why I believe in chastity, like, then why. Why am I living that? I know I believe in it, but why? Right? And so, like, if you really want your kids to have values that they. That they. That they live, then them being able to explore what their values are for themselves, that's. That's a. You know, that's a process that takes a lot of trust and belief that your kids are going to come to a place of, you know, like, they're going to choose values that you want them to choose. And I think most of us, when we look at our kids, like, we do have that trust in them, right? Like, we can look at our kids and say, yeah, you know, if I give them freedom, I don't think they're going to choose to kill babies and eat them. Right? For the most part, hopefully. Although that's not always true. I mean, everybody. Sometimes you get a cannibal. I don't know. Yeah. To a cannibal. No. I mean. But yeah, and so. And so I would say that's a really complex question that's rooted in a lot of cultural beliefs and that, you know, like, me trying to speak from a place where I'm not just, you know, like, imposing my own belief about that makes it super complex. So.

29:46 Mary Mealing And then what was the second part of the question?

29:49 John Dehlin Just other thoughts about age appropriateness in communicating with kids.

29:56 Lisa Butterworth I feel like you could have this podcast about preschool kids, and then you could have one about elementary school kids and one about high school kids. I mean, like, there's no better way to, like, get your kids to rebel than to say you have to follow these new values and not give a teenager a choice at all. Like, on the one hand, that's that. Or as that's one of the jokes Natasha tell. She's like, you know, like, if you want your kids to rebel by, like, going to church, then that's a pretty good choice. It's better than cocaine. But tell them they can't go to church anymore. And you will get a very dedicated church building and teenager. So, you know, and that's just part of being, that's the part of the developmental process. And then you know, like Lisa and Mary talking about having adult children and grandchildren, that's a whole different conversation.

30:46 John Dehlin Yeah.

30:46 Lisa Butterworth So yeah, but I think if you root yourself in all of these sort of things to think about that you've said that, you know, you can just follow that, that follow the sort of basic principles that you're laying out and then you'll be able to figure out, you know, what's appropriate for four year olds.

31:06 John Dehlin Great.

31:07 Mary Mealing What's appropriate for a 40 year old.

31:08 John Dehlin Right.

31:09 Natasha Helfer I know as you were talking, what I was thinking is how oftentimes our brains really want to go for that safe, secure, scripted, you know, where you can make it okay. And I think so much a part of transition is, is realizing it's really so much as an art form. I mean so much is like principles and trying it and looking at your child and being like that really didn't work, worked for the other one. So we'll go back to, you know, connecting and it's, it really is sort of this, it's a different mindset. It's a bit, a bit of a different world navigating after one thing you talked about that leads to another point is it's really, really common that there's a new sheriff in town once you leave. And it's not church anymore. Church isn't the authority. But oftentimes we unknowingly step into the authority role of wanting then everyone to understand what we're going through. We tend to want to like share and have everyone understand. And it's super common, very understandable

32:18 Lisa Kais and

32:18 Natasha Helfer also something to really be aware of as the idea is that you're actually not trying to have a new agenda to then kind of go back to a structure that was problematic to begin with, where control was at the helm, but that really what you're trying to do is move away from that and be positive where you can and try and have these spaces where conversations are happening, where a lot of questions are being asked, like Lisa brought up. Because I think oftentimes we get stuck in sort of sermonizing or really in this role of telling, which I feel like it's really natural, but we really something magical happens when you start, start asking questions. And that's why I really loved our format when we were mixed faith as a family, when we would have dinner after our Sabbath dinner We would just start saying, what did you love? What resonated and what didn't resonate? And we kind of would go around the table. And I liked that because it was a mixed bag. You could say I found some of my values there, and they resonated. And here's what was problematic, and this is why. And I found that. That we had a lot of our really, really great conversations that way and really great discussions, and it all centered around asking questions as well as really being careful not to step in the authority shoe of trying now to. And it's super tricky. I think it's tricky because we come by that parenting paradigm through the church paradigm of authority. Well, and so that's another shift that happens in transition. So I was gonna say the other thing.

34:07 Lisa Butterworth Well, I was gonna say the other thing that really stands out to me with that, like, idea of a dinner conversation after church and how powerful that is, is that it's also. I mean, it's all the things you said, but it's also about the tone you're setting, right? Like, if you go in and it doesn't matter the age of the child, but, like, especially if they're little and you go in and you put on the Jaws music. Dun, dun, dun, dun. We're having a conversation about faith. Dun, dun, dun, dun. You know, like, that's gonna be a traumatic experience for them. But if you can make it into a casual conversation that you have after dinner where you're just sharing ideas and sharing thoughts, then that's a tone that's friendly and inviting, and it doesn't make like mommy and daddy are questioning the church and what do we do? You know? And so, like, that tone of, like, friendly, open conversation is really important.

35:05 Mary Mealing Totally agree.

35:08 Natasha Helfer Yes. Lisa K.

35:12 Lisa Kais I love that whole idea and what I have found in my experience with my kids and this happened with young women as well. So I found that the more fun that I had with them at girls camp on Wednesday night activities, whatever the activity, the more fun I had with them, the more apt they were to listen to me when it came to serious times. And so I found that with my children as well. The most serious conversations we have are in a tent, around a campfire, in my bed, in the middle of the night. My teenagers only wanted to talk at 1am I never got. I'm like, seriously, why couldn't we talk at 10am but at night, laying in my bed, they loved to talk at those times. And that was really, really a great learning experience for me. And the more really. And Truly, the more fun we had together, the more they listened to me during serious times. And then I think that they test you a little bit. Like, I can remember. I can't remember exactly how old my kids were, but I remember saying, I really want to know how you feel about this. And so they were pretty honest and open, and a little bit of the conversation probably hurt my feelings a little bit. But I was okay with that because I knew that they would come back again, like, if I was super defensive and said, yeah, you can't say that to me, or, no, you don't feel that way, or let me justify why we're doing this or whatever, you know. But if I. When they tested and found out that I really did want to know how they felt and then I validated how they felt and then we went forward, that seemed like a really good pattern

36:59 Natasha Helfer to set Love that. That really brings back that idea of connection being sort of this tool versus control, the idea of connecting through fun, through, you know, that it's really about that sacred space where you're seeing your child in a very real way versus trying to coerce or bring about behaviors that you approve of or having them even in tune with, trying to gain

37:26 Lisa Butterworth your approval for love.

37:28 Natasha Helfer Yeah, I love that.

37:31 Mary Mealing I'm going to jump in here, if you don't mind, please. Talking about authority when we're looking at this, part of the challenge when you've come from a very orthodox Mormon family, is that as parents, we've always used the authority of the church to back up the authority of ourselves as parents. And we validate the rules, the doctrine, as a means to justify what we are telling our children. We feel very compelled to do that. The challenge in a transition is that I know that I have to learn to separate those things just a little bit. I still have authority with my grown daughter in the way that we communicate, in that I'm still her mother, I still want to advise her, and she wants that advice, and we still want to have that connected, intimate relationship. But I have to be very careful because if we tread into discussing some of these issues that surround the elephant in the room, the barrier between us, that I'm not in the church and she is, she now resorts to that authority and by default, because I did it, it's very common for her to resort to the authority of the church that certain things are set in stone, and it makes it very difficult for us to bridge those things and discuss them. So I've learned that I have to tread very carefully and to talk about neutral things to rebuild that trust with her. Because she told me when I left, you changed the rules and all the things we used to be able to talk about, including controversial things we no longer can talk about. And in a way, she's right. So I've had to learn to say, let's find those safe things we can talk about, rebuild that trust. Recognizing, because I understand it as well as she does, that she has a certain barrier of authority that I can't push up against. It's a default barrier of authority that she feels as an adult woman that I really can't push up against at this time. So I have to try to respect that.

39:22 Natasha Helfer Yeah. Wow. Amazing emotional maturity. That's what I would say. That's. It's so true, too.

39:31 John Dehlin Lisa B. Anything to add on this, this point about authority?

39:37 Lisa Butterworth Yeah, I just, I think that that's a really beautiful way of validating your daughter's experience and her moral matrixes. Right? Like, she has a. She has an authority moral matrix that's. You understand, you were there. Like, that was part of your moral beliefs as well. And so, you know, like,

40:00 Natasha Helfer it can

40:00 Lisa Butterworth be really hard to shift that mindset where, like, no, no, no, no. In order to be, okay, I need that person to agree with me. Right. But to, like, that's part of becoming our own, you know, authority. And the source of our own worthiness is letting go of that and letting them, you know, have a totally different belief about authority and respecting that. That might bring a lot of good things into her life. You know, that might give her a lot of really positive experiences and you just can't know for other people what's going to be best for them.

40:42 Natasha Helfer So. True.

40:43 John Dehlin Totally. Okay, the next point that we have here is a delicate. Well, not a delicate one, but it's a bit of a complicated one. So there was a point where we were all still attending church as a family, but we're certainly progressive and unorthodox. So we, you know, we all supported same sex marriage. We all felt like being LGBT was a good thing, something to be celebrated. We didn't feel like it was the one true church anymore. We. We saw problems with, you know, certain past church leaders or certain church policies. And so this became really complicated for our kids because they would go to church or they would go to seminary and they would hear things that either were offensive to them or that were hurtful, that were sad, that they disagreed with, or in some cases were racist, sexist, homophobic, or that they just thought were wrong. And so they would come to us and say, man, this doesn't seem fair. Because all my friends get to say exactly whatever they think or feel, whether it's seminary or Sunday school or just a lunchtime conversation, they get to say whatever they want and we have to keep quiet because, you know, they would do what many of us tried, which is to say the. To stick up for the LGBT person or to speak up for feminism, or to say, hey, well, Joseph Smith did this or that. And, you know, a strong, confident, articulate, sensitive 15 year old might be able to pull that off at a high school in a conservative Mormon county in Utah. But for the most part, even if your kids are sophisticated, that's not going to go over well with a bunch of believing kids. And it might not even be safe for them. Let's say you love feminism and believe in it, but to have your kid drop that feminist bomb in the middle of the lunch table, there might be real social consequences that a reckless person might say is fine, but a person who cares about their friendships and their relationships and how they're treated, you know, it may not be the right place to express that. So we had these conversations with our kids where we would feel guilty, but. And they would feel confused. But at the end, I saw one silver lining in this dilemma, and that is that it is a fact that in the real professional world, the real world outside of Mormonism, you don't get to say everything you think and feel, whether it's on the job, whether it's, you know, at a. At a public school with friends, you may think or feel all sorts of things politically or socially, but you just don't go around running around and saying it all. And so I guess I sometimes would say to the kids that this is a really important opportunity to practice skills that you'll have to practice all sorts of places in your life. Even if you leave Mormonism, never go back, leave religion altogether, even if you're with a bunch of secular friends, there are still going to be. There's still going to be instances where wisdom calls for discretion in what you communicate. The second part of that is, you know, it's one thing to be a privileged part of a majority and to always be able to feel the privilege and the confidence and the power to say whatever you want. And this was an opportunity for my kids to be able to practice not only knowing and feeling what it's like to not have power and privilege that can make them more empathetic with women, with people of color, with LGBT people, with, you know, People of other countries who come here. There are all sorts of people who are down powered, so to speak. And that's a silver lining to being in that position. And then finally, I think it made, and this is going to sound biased because I'm a parent, I think it made my kids develop a level of depth and complexity and sensitivity that they would not have sort of experienced if they were just sort of casually carefree, having all this privilege, being in the majority and just sort of skating through their middle and high school experiences. So I think my kids, our kids tend to be deeper and a little bit more sophisticated and maybe even a bit more wise than maybe they would have been had they not had that experience now. So that sort of summarizes in sort of this sense of reframing their experience because, you know, sometimes it's like, well, we should enjoy church and we should love it and it should be fun and we should agree with everything. And we would sometimes reframe it with our kids as this is an opportunity for depth and richness of development. Lisa K. How would you respond to that?

46:14 Lisa Kais I love what you said about exposure. I think it's so important that our kids are empathetic and compassionate and see the world as a place than just a small community that they live in. And I think that that gives them so much wisdom. And I also love that they have to learn that there are times when they can't speak, speak out, or then they have to learn that fine line in society, which is a really hard thing to do because sometimes when you're very passionate about something, you want to have a voice and you want to be heard and you want to be understood. And all of those things are difficult. I. I think of like my little grandkids and they live in a small community and I wonder how things are going to progress from them with a mother that doesn't go to church and a father that does. I know there are children that won't be able to come to their house and play. I know that there are families that are like that. They will be excluded from birthday parties, they will be excluded from events because their mother no longer identifies as Mormon. And that's really hurtful for me. But having raised my oldest children in Arkansas and South Carolina, we experienced that, you know, when we were active in church, we had, they had friends who they couldn't play with because we were Mormon. So we've experienced, you know, kind of both sides of that, of that equation, so to speak. But one thing I thought also is I do Love that it get that to give your kids exposure in some of the controversial things. I have a son that's gay. And when his brother went to the temple almost two years ago, two years ago in May, only I was then had a temple recommend, so I went with him. My husband and my daughter and brother didn't go to the temple. And so as my daughter was explaining this to her children, she said, daddy's gonna go to the temple with. With your uncle, but Mommy's not, and I'm not going because your other uncle can't go because he's gay. And the church no longer sees him as they see him as apostate. And so I'm standing with him in a moment of solidarity. And so my little grandkids were like, wait, what? He can't go in there because of that. And little tessa, who was 9 at the time, said, that's so not fair. That is not right. And I love that even at young ages, they understand fairness, what's right, what's wrong. And then they're super vocal. I mean, they talk about their gay uncle all the time. Oh, he's gay. Oh, that's his boyfriend. And I love that. I love that they have that worldview. And not just about that subject, of course, that's tender to our home, but about other subjects as well.

49:22 Natasha Helfer So,

49:25 John Dehlin Lisa B.

49:29 Lisa Butterworth You know, I love everything you said, and I would also say that it's definitely important to put context around those things a bit, because, like, you know, if you have a gay son and you're a mix marriage, family, and, you know, like, maybe you're the person transitioning out, maybe you do need to be an advocate, because, like, it's one thing to ask a kid who that hatred is being directed toward to go into that space versus the kid that has privilege. You know, like, asking a kid who is clearly privileged to go and experience what it's like not to be privileged, that's one thing. But asking a kid who's not in a safe space space to go in and, you know, and so, like, it's not something that, you know, it's a delicate conversation you might have to have with your spouse, but I think, you know, like, explaining it from that position of this is this is too hard for him or this is too hard for her. This is hurting her too much. Like, you know, like, where is the lesson? Yeah, like, where can my privileged kids learn a lesson versus am I putting my not privileged kid in an unsafe space? And there's lots of. There's lots of Places where you can put context around those kinds of questions of, like, how is this different for

50:43 Mary Mealing this person than this person?

50:45 Lisa Butterworth And, you know, like, that's. And that's something always to keep in mind. Even if you just have a kid who, like, I have a kid who is totally fine with, like, going to church and like, standing up for gay people. And like, he's just like, I'm just gonna tell him I love gay people, you know, and he does it, and he's very bold about it, and he can do it in a way that doesn't really cause too much trouble, but he's just like, I like gay people, so. And then I have another child who is like, terrified of that. But one of the ways I put context around it is to explain it as a cultural thing. Like in the culture of going to church, you know, like, people there want to feel a certain way and they want to connect with God in a certain way. And so, like, it's not really a place to maybe have a political argument now. Now if you, you know, like, and it's just about context. It's not like that you couldn't have that argument in another context or you couldn't put a note in that and say, hey, this thing was problematic. Can we talk about it at another time? You know, and like, give them tools so that they can be an advocate if they want to, and they can also have a safe space if they need it. But you know, just like thinking of ways child's young women and young men's leader and say, hey, if you're going to be having lessons on these certain topics that, you know are going to be a hot button for your family or for your child, say, you need to tell me about that first because, you know, like, give the young women and young men's leaders tools to support your family authority. Because we're not used to doing that in church either to advocate for our families and to say, hey, what you guys normally do at church, that's not good for us. So if you can just let me know if you're gonna have a lesson on these topics or, you know, whatever, and just being in a place. And then that also applies if you're in a mixed marriage of being like, learning to be an advocate for your spouse that's leaving. Because if the message that everybody in your ward is giving you is, oh, poor you, your spouse is leaving. And if you buy into that, then you're not respecting your family culture, you're not advocating for your spouse as an equal partner in this and you're not sending the message to your children and to your ward that your marriage still matters, matters, and is valuable, even if you have different belief systems. And so, you know, like, those are all processes and ways of differentiating and advocating. And it can be really complex. But, you know, like, if you take the. If you take the context and try and like, weigh the different values that you have and then be as polite within the contexts that people have as possible and be an advocate when possible. And then if you're not, like, if you just have an angry moment in church when you yell at people, then to be gentle with yourself about that too, because you get to be mad sometimes. Like, you get to like, be hurt. And that's okay.

53:49 Natasha Helfer Absolutely, yeah.

53:51 John Dehlin Mary,

53:53 Mary Mealing I would agree a lot with what Lisa has just said. And for me it is the twofold. Respecting and having dialogue with your children to begin with, so you're open to when those problems do present themselves. I know with our older son, he told me much later that he was not safe in his classes for many months before he made the decision to leave because. And he said I wasn't bringing up controversial things. I wasn't trying to rock the boat. I wasn't trying to, you know, be the devil's advocate. I just had questions that made others uncomfortable and my teachers uncomfortable. And he proceeds that children are good perceived, but bad interpreters. And sometimes we can help them interpret without giving them words. I don't think we want to necessarily be the interpretation, but I think we can help them navigate that interpretation a little bit. And then I think the other thing we can do, like Lisa said, is really be stronger advocates for our kids when they are in over their heads. I know. I had a son who ended up not attending seminary, but not for reasons that he didn't want to, just because of school scheduling. He was different school than the other kids. It was complex. But his teacher, well meaning, had all the children sent him letters repeatedly. We miss you. We wish you were here. Confusing to him and very insulting. And so we had to step in. He wasn't able to and just sort of pull that teacher aside and say, you don't always have all the story, you know, you need to respect our family and please don't do this. I know it's meant well. So I would agree with that. Sometimes help your children interpret in a way that meaningful to them and respects their voice, but also sometimes step in and be an advocate for them if you need to.

55:26 Natasha Helfer Yeah, I think that's super important. And Even, you know, Lisa B. I think was talking about looking at it as culture. This is the culture when we go to church. This is what the people like to feel good, feel uplifted when we go there. And I love to just keeping a pulse on, you know, is, is it agitating to my teen daughter? Is she being agitated there? And if so, if she's feeling silenced in that culture, being like, how are there other spaces she could feel empowered just keeping an eye on sort of that balance between feeling hushed, silenced versus also having those moments of feeling empowered in those places and spaces. And I know for our kids it was a very interesting balance because I think they got that church culture pretty well. And again, just like you, Lisa V. We had different children that would be more vocal and others that weren't and felt comfortable in different spaces. But for almost all of ours, we found in the world at school, all of a sudden that advocacy was so needed and some of those situations were actually dire. You could tell a child, you know, another student or I'm thinking of, particularly with Maya, that her essays, all of a sudden her essays would be written and she'd be standing in front of her class talking about, you know, really to be an advocate. Because I think there are those moments where there are things at stake and kids can sense that, that it would matter to someone else and they stand up. And then as parents, it's that, you know, way to be brave, way to have courage, way we stand with you and giving that support. So anyway, it's a dance.

57:11 Mary Mealing Yeah.

57:15 Natasha Helfer Okay, so next it's a great feed in with this idea of reframing. And I love the idea also reframing, kind of. Yes, there's loss and there's grief that is a side to this process. There is also birth, there is also an adventure to this. There is discovery about ourselves as a family and as individuals in this process. And there could be some excitement there. There can be some. And within that reframing when we talk to our kids. And again, I think Lisa B. Kind of alluded to this, the idea of your energy. What is your energy around sort of these conversations around. I think it's so key because it's the thing they feel first and foremost before you say a word. And it is also what they remember more than what you said is how they felt in those conversations. So it's a tricky piece. I think maybe notice. I think it's lovely to consider if you're in a multi faith marriage, you know, sort of how you want to treat each other in these discussions, is there tension, being aware and maybe working that through and how you want to respond to one another in a supportive, really open way, as well as with I think, the kids and just kind of keeping that anxiety that's so normal to feel and that fear in check and realizing while they're part of the process, you probably don't want them to be the speakers, the ones that get the time during these times that you kind of want to, you want to be operating from a different place. So it's this idea of just being aware of your energy amidst these conversations and, and how you treat each other being the utmost importance even more than ideas, you know that it's how we love how we treat people and the conversation. So does anyone want to respond or speak to that?

59:06 Lisa Butterworth I was going to say that what came up for me as you were talking about that is how important it is for couples who are divorcing to have those conversations with each other. Make a plan, you know, because if you're in two very different faith spaces, you know, like all of the literature, it's hard to do because if you have a lot of angry feelings towards each other. But you know, like all of the literature, all of the research on what makes kids be okay after a divorce is that you present a united front. Like you're both gonna have to give, you're both going to be uncomfortable. Like you're both gonna have to come to a place of compromise where you're both giving up something. But that you make that plan, that you make the effort to stick to the plan, that's what's gonna be best for your kids. And so, you know, and that's gonna be true too, even if you're staying together, but you're just really struggling or separating or whatever is happening in the marriage, like that's, it's such a hard thing. But you know, like presenting a united front to your kids and having a plan together before you approach them separately, that's really important.

1:00:18 Natasha Helfer And I love the idea behind that too with multi faith marriage, because oftentimes one thing I would think about is too, if you're, if let's say your wife is attending and is a,

1:00:34 Mary Mealing what is it called? Believer, like a whatever.

1:00:37 Natasha Helfer And you're not, you may have a child that is. And so how you actually are talking to your wife and accepting of her and how you're treating her, that child's watching you and they're gonna feel similarly, like, will dad feel that way about me if. Because I'm like mom Or. And it's. It really is this sort of awareness that how we treat each other is paramount. And that's true in marriage.

1:01:02 Lisa Butterworth And.

1:01:02 Natasha Helfer And your children are watching sort of, would he love me less than. And that's something we've always noticed in our children.

1:01:09 Mary Mealing It's.

1:01:09 Natasha Helfer They, even before transition, they do these, what if?

1:01:13 Mary Mealing What if? Would you love me then?

1:01:14 Natasha Helfer How about this? Would you love me then? And there's this exploration of sort of love and how far will it reach and how far will it go? And so just maybe keeping in mind with those differences in marriage, I think it's so brilliant to come together first to have those discussions before the children enter the picture of, like, what do we value? How do we want this to be for our kids? And realize that your kids, you may have a child that really identifies largely with your wife. And while you may have a lot of differences with your wife, ultimately what you want to communicate is that same love for your wife to the child that's watching. You know, just something that came to mind.

1:01:57 Mary Mealing I think that's very important. And one of the other aspects of that is just general respect. I know it's very easy when you are making a transition in order to deal with the grief and the change, to use humor, to use deprecating remarks about the church, to laugh about things that are maybe a little irreverent. And I think we do have to be respectful if we have believing children still in our home, believing friends, other family members, that we're careful how we frame our attitudes towards the church as we leave, so that we are respectful to say, you know, this is good. We acknowledge the good. And when children are present, I don't think you want to hide from them your concerns or conversations, but I think you need to help them understand. Maybe it is simply a matter of, I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have said that. That's not very responsible. It helps me deal with my anxiety or it helps me deal with my anger. You know, help them to understand that. But I do think respect is really important.

1:02:56 Natasha Helfer Great point. Anyone else?

1:03:01 John Dehlin All right, so we just got a question from one of our listeners in from Marie. And I thought it'd be fun to take a pause in our little outline and address a specific question from a listener. Marie writes, what are good boundaries to set with grandparents to prevent your kids from becoming a missionary project? Anybody have. Anybody have experience with that? They want to. Want to jump in.

1:03:28 Mary Mealing Mary, if you don't mind me jumping

1:03:30 Lisa Butterworth right back in again.

1:03:32 Mary Mealing It was interesting because when My son left and married a woman who came from a very secular background. They were deeply concerned that we would proselyte to their children and to the point that they, you know, in doing family planning, would they have us take their children in the event of their deaths? And they asked me directly, would you raise them in the church? And I said, well, if they're young, they'll be going to church with us, to be perfectly frank. But they were very concerned about our violating their family sovereignty. And now my daughter feels the same, you know, as a believing member and my not believing. Do I value their family's sovereignty to be respectful to their kids? And so, you know, it's a difficult balance to walk, but I think it is very important. The lesson I learned from my son is you really have to respect what your children want for their children and have conversations with them about it, you know, and assure them your child is safe with me. And if you have a grandparent that wants to proselyte your children, and we've all seen this, the grandma who brings the kids to primary when she's got them, and mom and dad don't know about it, you know, open those conversations with them and explain how important it is that your family has the right to determine those things. And though you respect what they do, please, mom and dad, teach them in other ways. Teach them your values in other ways. We value what you know. Teach them to be honest. Teach them to love. Show them your love, but please, please don't teach them in the framework of Mormonism, if you can. I think that's one way. Just have a conversation.

1:05:02 Natasha Helfer Being direct.

1:05:03 Mary Mealing I think being direct, you have to. Or, you know, or those paradigms, you'll. You'll find you'll wade into muddy waters if you don't,

1:05:13 Lisa Butterworth you know, if you.

1:05:14 Lisa Kais Sorry.

1:05:16 Lisa Butterworth You know, like, if you. If you have a particularly, you know, like, problematic relationship with a grandparent or, you know, like, if you have a family that's particularly sort of, like, rigid and orthodox and their behavior is really problematic, and we are, as Mormons, not the best at setting boundaries and differentiating and figuring all that stuff out. So it's probably a good idea to sit down first with your spouse if you're married, or if with your ex, if you're not, and try and make a plan, like, here's what's okay, here's what's not okay. And, you know, like, if you have examples of things they've done that aren't okay, then give those. And say these kinds of things are not okay. And if there are things that, examples of things they've done well, you know, I love going back to what Lisa Keys said about having fun. You know, like, if they really want to like convince your kids that their way of life is one that they want to follow, then go have a whole bunch of fun with the grandkids. And that probably it may or may not work, but it's sure gonna open those kids up a lot more to, you know, like, what, what is it the grandma and grandpa are doing?

1:06:26 Natasha Helfer Right?

1:06:26 Lisa Butterworth And if you can explain it in that way, like, you know, you coming down and telling my kids, you should believe this or you should believe that or I have a really, really bad one for my family. You want to hear a terrible one?

1:06:37 John Dehlin Yeah.

1:06:39 Lisa Butterworth I went to my nieces baptism and my brother and sister in law had just recently been divorced and my, my niece came up to my mom and was like talking to her and my mom said something about, well, we have to go now because we don't approve of what your mother, your choices your mother is making. To an 8 year old. My mother said that. So you know, like, like, and my mom once told my daughter, like, we think your mom is hurting the church. You know, like. And so like I sat down with mom and I said these things. You cannot say them. You know, like if you say those things to my children, we won't be coming to visit you. And that's really sad for them because you're awesome and I want them to know you. And so, you know, like, here's things that are okay to say, you know, like the last time I went home, I had to tell my mom to stop talking about what my kids were wearing because she was, you know, she was really worried that my daughter isn't wearing a bra and she's really worried that my other daughter has a certain haircut, you know, and so I just had to say, mom, that's not gonna work for us. Like, you're making the kids feel really uncomfortable and they don't want to be here and that's not what we want. We want them to enjoy you and we want them to get to know you and love you. So, so here's some other things you could talk about instead.

1:08:03 Natasha Helfer You know, so important.

1:08:08 John Dehlin What if We've had to deal with this, by the way, so we're laughing a little bit. What if. And Lisa K. I want to come. You were about to speak up, so I'm going to jump to you in just a second. But I don't want to lose this thought is that, okay, what if you have a parent that will not self censor? Let's just say they're in their 80s, they're set in their ways. Let's just say they don't say, I

1:08:34 Natasha Helfer mean, for someone, for someone, they have someone that, I mean,

1:08:44 John Dehlin What if their parent is set in their ways and they simply won't change? They won't change. And you can have that deep, intense conversation for an hour. Next week they do the same thing and then the week after that and they're not going to change.

1:08:57 Natasha Helfer And it's important to just put in there. Pain is, there is pain in the middle of that. Like things are being said that are hurting your kids and affecting how they feel about themselves and clearly damaging the relationship.

1:09:16 Lisa Butterworth Lisa, did you want to do that one?

1:09:20 Lisa Kais Well, I can do that one. And then I just had a thought on the other thing as well.

1:09:23 John Dehlin But yes, go for it, Go for it. Lisa.

1:09:26 Lisa Kais I think that that's so tricky because like the people in our lives, they're around their 80s that are very set in their ways and they say harmful things. And then like you said, they don't. They don't. They can't figure out how not to do that. It's almost like it's programmed into their brain and they're just spewing back what they've been programmed in. And I've had that experience a few times too, as have my children. And I just said, you know, this is your choice to my older children and you can choose to have her in your life or not. I hope that you'll remember her age and that maybe you can just let that go. You know, just say, oh, that's grandma. She, she loves me. She really doesn't mean what she just said. And if you can't let that go and she continues to do that, then maybe you just have to step back a little bit. Maybe you need some more space. Maybe you don't see her as often, or maybe you don't have difficult conversations with her. And maybe when she starts into something like that, you say, I can't have this conversation with you and you leave. And maybe she could get it, maybe not.

1:10:35 Natasha Helfer I don't know that boundarying.

1:10:40 Lisa Kais My other thought on that same subject was that sometimes I think we get caught up, you know, in with grandkids or younger kids or even our older kids in telling them what we don't believe anymore. Like, I don't believe this and I don't believe that. And when we can take the opportunity to teach Them what we do believe. Like, I found this cool thing out about science, about how you can tell the age of a rock, or how you can.

1:11:06 Mary Mealing So

1:11:09 Lisa Kais teach them more about the things that you believe now instead of all the things that you don't believe anymore.

1:11:15 Natasha Helfer Love that. Love that. Yeah, that kind of plays into one of our other points, which was in building a family culture. And I think it's so refreshing amidst grief or if you're feeling lost, to do something empowering. And that was one of the really great things we did, was sit down and really discuss, like, values. What values, you know, do you kids really identify with that you really want to see on a daily basis in our home? And really, I think, make it a family thing. Have the kids get involved, really be careful, I think, as parents, to embody, not just talk, but really embody those values. Incorporate them into rituals or traditions that you have around the house so they're really felt, they're seen. We did that. It was just such a great. One of the. A great memory. And it's something that I think you revisit. You revisit on your journey quite frequently. But, like, some of the values that I was thinking about for us were learning creativity, respect for oneself and environment, personal health and safety, the value of work, and the joy that comes from being known and loved by one another. And those are things that I feel like if you came into our home, there would be, like, evidences in our home because they're just so lived and embodied, and this is part of the adventure. It's actually one of those really great things about building up something that could be potentially better than what you had to begin with. Do you guys have any thoughts or insights on that?

1:13:04 Lisa Kais Sorry, I know I just went. But I can go again.

1:13:08 John Dehlin Go ahead, Lisa. Lisa.

1:13:11 Lisa Kais I just feel like sometimes we were taught this narrative through the religion that we were in or are in for those that are still in, that the only way that we can have a happy family or an eternal family or a good family is by following the principles or the outline that we were given. And that just isn't true. Some people think that. And I've heard people say, well, Mormonism makes me a better person, or whatever religion they are, that makes me a better person. I wouldn't be a good person without that. And I beg to differ. I think people are good. In fact, I think people are amazing as a whole, and all people are, and that we don't need those guidelines to make us good, to make us happy, and to make our children Good and happy. And I think that as we help them see that and see the world as a fabulous place, then they have more goodness. And I was reading this book recently by the Dalai Lama, and in it it says, and it's written by a psychiatrist as well, and he says, happiness. I have the quote, here's the quote. Increased happiness leads to greater compassion. Increased compassion leads to greater happiness. And I love that. So when we teach our children about being happy, they become compassionate. The more compassionate they are, the more happy they are. And I think that's a great family value.

1:14:36 Natasha Helfer Absolutely.

1:14:38 John Dehlin Love it.

1:14:38 Natasha Helfer Love that. Anything else?

1:14:40 John Dehlin Mary, I am interested in your thoughts on this and I am also wondering, just as a side note, how do you as a grandparent bring all the kids and grandkids together where there's fundamental faith differences between you and some of your kids and between some of your kids without that just sort of spoiling the together time?

1:15:04 Mary Mealing That's a very interesting question and one that's very pertinent right now because it is an issue that we are dealing with with our children, with our adult children. We of course, as grandparents have this vision that our children will come together, our grandchildren will know each other and love each other and we'll have this great extended family culture of play and fun and joy and respect. And my kids are very good at conversing with each other and pretty respectfully. But then you put in laws in there as well and it becomes a bit of a challenge. For example, my son, who is not in the church, is concerned that when his daughter plays with her cousins, she gets a little slut shamed, if you will.

1:15:42 John Dehlin And he's for what she wears.

1:15:43 Mary Mealing For what she wears because the girls are young. And so one of my believing granddaughter will say, why are you wearing that two piece suit that you know, that's immodest. Now she's not being bad or judgmental, she's just repeating what of course she's being taught and that teaching isn't taught to her so that she'll be judgmental. We all understand that. But my son is very hesitant to have his daughter play with my daughter's children. And that hurts me as a grandparent. So I try to use some adult wisdom in explaining to them. But it is a challenge. And I won't say that I have all those answers. I wish I did. But the one thing we do try to do when we're together is to try neutral ground that we do enjoy. So we do play. We try to keep those kinds of conversations and Experiences to a minimum. And then I do try to interface as the mother in the middle, the grandmother in the middle. I know each of my children very well. They don't know each other as well as I know them. And so I think I can be helpful to give them wisdom. I try to, but it's an ongoing problem and I expect it will get worse as they get older in some ways, and I hope better. But it is a challenge because I have one daughter who's believing. She told me now when we left, you know, I'm the only member in my family. Her husband's the only member in his family. So we took what was a strong Mormon family identity that she had a way from her, and she's grieving that as well. So I try to be respectful of that grief and understand she is sensitive, extra sensitive, and try to mitigate that with knowing each of my children. So it's time again. It's a future I hope to navigate better

1:17:21 Lisa Butterworth from a mental health perspective. You know, like, we know that you need like 10 positive sort of building, relationship building experiences to every one sort of difficult conversation. And so that's something to keep in mind as well. Like, how can we come together at those places like Mary was talking about, where we have common ground and we like to play here together and do that about 10 times more than we have a hard conversation about, you know, like, swimsuits. And that's. That's difficult to balance, but it's an. It's kind of a good, you know, thing to shoot for.

1:18:04 John Dehlin Yeah, that makes sense.

1:18:06 Mary Mealing And I also do find, if you don't mind me just saying one quick thing, I have to be careful that I don't violate each of their sovereign rights as families. I don't say to my son, well, she's wrong. I can't believe she does that. And go to her and say, yeah, you know, I have to try to be that person that says, well, I respect what they're doing. And at the same time, I understand your concerns because I think that they need to, you know, respect is very important, I think, in those situations.

1:18:32 Lisa Butterworth Yeah.

1:18:34 Natasha Helfer So tricky.

1:18:36 John Dehlin All right, we have another question from a listener. Melanie writes how to deal with belief transitions with children when you still attend church but don't believe. So have any of you attended church as a non believer and have any experience with how to navigate that with children? I could imagine a child could be saying, this is confusing all the way to. You're being hypocrites. I don't understand. I remember our kids at times saying, we would have these big debriefings at dinner after church, and it would cause a lot of, like, stress. And they would say, why are you doing this to us? Why are you making. Why are we going to church if all we're going to do when you get home is, like, have all this drama? Why don't we just stop going? You know? And that was just one moment in time. I wouldn't say that's how it always was, but. Any tips from any of you on Melanie's question?

1:19:43 Mary Mealing Yeah, and I don't have that situation, but it is a hard question. I've seen friends go through it. I know that one thing that came up in the episode, the first part of this, talking to your children, was the idea that if you have a believing child, can you be willing to go with them? Can you be willing to sit with them? Just as how would you feel if a child left? How would you feel if. If a child joined another faith? All of these are issues that you have to respect your child and have conversation. But again, I think you have to be careful that you don't minimize that decision either. If they are believing and want to be part of it, that if they have moments where they're getting an award, if they're having an ordination, that you come with them. You don't have to say, I agree with what you're doing. I'm so proud. God's so proud. Proud of you. But you can say, I'm happy that you're happy. You know, I'm happy that you're enjoying this and I want to support you. I think that you can do that for them.

1:20:43 John Dehlin I admire you for following your own beliefs. Right. And what's important to you. Yeah.

1:20:46 Lisa Butterworth Lisa B. I'm wondering if the way

1:20:49 Natasha Helfer that

1:20:51 Lisa Butterworth the person asked the question, if they're asking the question about, like, if you haven't yet sort of come out to your family and they ask you questions, you know, like, if you're going to church with your family and you're not ready yet, you're taking the time to figure out that process, and it's brand new, and you're going. And then they ask you questions like, how do I answer questions when I'm not ready to answer questions. Right. And that. That is a hard one. Right. Like if. Because we sort of do have a culture within Mormonism of answering directly the questions that people ask you about your faith journey, you know, like, bear your testimony for me, mom, or, what am I supposed to believe in the afterlife? Or tell Me what's true, Mom. And if you're not knowing what's true or not, but you're also not sure how to answer the question in a way that's real for you, you know, like, it's really valid to say, hey, you know what? I don't really. I'm not sure what I think about that right now. I'm sort of. I'm sitting with that question, and I'm not sure how to answer that. Maybe let's go talk to your dad or let's go talk to your mom and see what they have to say. Or, you know, say, hey, can I get that? Can I think about that and get back to you in a little while? And then that can give you some time to think of a way to answer that's both true to yourself, but not like burdening your child with all of your drama that's going on inside of you right then. And also maybe to come up, you know, like, if you haven't come out to your spouse yet, like, if you're still sitting with all of that and you can kind of. Think through that, you know, like, when am I going to be ready to have that conversation? But it's okay to put bookmarks and things and to say, I don't know, and to say, hey, that's a really important question. What do you think? Or, you know, and, you know, and lob the question off to somebody else or, you know, so that's also a good thing to sort of think through. Like, yeah, what do you think? What are ways that you can respond that can give you some time, let you have boundaries, let you have space and respects your process? Yeah.

1:23:08 John Dehlin What do you guys think about the idea of. I remember a friend once told me, look, I don't believe it all anymore, but it's a good way to raise your kids. And so I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna raise them as members. I don't want to take their community away from them. I want them to have a belief in something. So that's just what I'm gonna do, and I'm gonna just play the role. How does that. How does that land on you guys as a perspective, knowing that we're not wanting to be judgmental of other people's paths, but any reactions to that?

1:23:44 Mary Mealing I had this conversation with my son because he. He says, I believe that there's so many good things in Mormonism. It's a great way to live your life. And if it, you know, and I look at it and I think it is a good church. If you're just after a church and not a doctrine, not a. This is my relationship with God and who God is in the universe. But this is a church. It's a very good church to be part of. That being said, I do think that one thing that helps when you have some perspective in transition is that there's some dangers also inherent in Mormonism. And I think we have to find ways to mitigate some of those dangers. For example, I have granddaughters. I'm very concerned about mitigating the dangers of being raised in a very patriarchal structure. I don't want them to think they're less because they're girls. And so without stepping on my daughter's toes doctrinally, I do think I have to mitigate some of that. You know, that I can respect her desire to go to church, that it's a good place for her and her family to be as a church. But I do feel I have to strengthen her daughters to understand you are no less. And there's ways positively to do that. But I do think we have to mitigate some of that.

1:24:47 Lisa Kais Lisa K. Also, I think that if church is a healthy place for them, then maybe that's okay. But sometimes church isn't a healthy place for our kids, especially if our kids are lgbtq. The church can be a really, really harmful, unhealthy environment. So I think you have to be, like, very mindful, because I'm so mindful of that community and of the suicide rates and of the attempted suicide rates, of the depression, all of those things that come along with that. And sometimes I think that there's a new generation of Mormons, cafeteria Mormon, so to speak, so they can pick and choose the things that they want to participate in and the things that they believe in. That wasn't the generation I was raised in. It was true or it wasn't true. Joseph Smith had a vision or he didn't. I mean, it was very black and white. So I think if you don't believe and you can still go and be that cafeteria style and that it's. You make sure that it's not harmful to anyone in your family. I guess, you know, different paths for different folks, but that didn't work for me. But, you know, I can see how it could.

1:25:59 Lisa Butterworth I think, too, that, you know, like, church experiences vary so broadly based on, like, what. Where is your ward and what is your family like? Like, did your family. Was your family sort of embedded in this very rigid kind of Mormonism, or did you Drink Diet Coke sometimes, and it was more loosey goosey. And the same with your ward, you know, like, if you have a ward that brings Diet Coke to the. To the. To the ward assembly, then chances. Not ward assembly, ward activity, then the chances are good that you're gonna have a ward that isn't gonna, you know, be too hard on your kids who have a different haircut or who are lgbt, depending. Like, it really, really, really depends on the situation and the context and the family and so many things.

1:26:50 Mary Mealing And the kid.

1:26:51 Lisa Butterworth The kid themselves, Right? And so, like, I would say to that person who is saying, hey, it works for me. I want to do this. It's a good place to raise kids. I would say, well, how's that working for you? And how's that working for them? And that's all I would say, you know, like, if it's working for you and your kids and you're actually happy and you can feel like you belong and your award is supportive, and you feel seen and heard and you feel like your needs are being met, then yay, you know, like, do what you want. If, however, it's not working for you and you're coming home from Sunday school every week feeling really pulled down, feeling, like, hurt, if your kids are crying after church, then I would say maybe reconsider. Like, think that through, you know, like, there's not a right answer to that.

1:27:40 John Dehlin Sure, Absolutely. Margie, there's a sort of a closing point. We're kind of reaching the end of this talk. We just got a really good question from a listener. But, Margie, I'll read this question while you go ahead and speak. One point that we kind of feel like is maybe one of the most important points we have to share.

1:28:01 Natasha Helfer So the last sort of thing to consider is the idea of embodiment. And that is it's like the good news and kind of the bad news, really, where it's the idea that what you model is always going to trump what you say. And so that kind of can take some of that pressure off to sort of have everything feel, like, wrapped up and neatly with what you say. And then it's also kind of the bad news, truly, because those things that you really do talk about or your kids are watching, and they really, I

1:28:36 Lisa Butterworth feel,

1:28:39 Natasha Helfer are sort of. It's that symbiotic kind of thing where they are looking at you to say, are you doing those things that you say you value? And anyway, so that is just something to keep in mind, that it takes work and personal growth and the idea is to be. To be the things that you talk about more than talk about the things that you think are so important to be in life. So.

1:29:08 John Dehlin Yeah. And just really quickly, it's pretty common for someone who's lost their faith to get really angry, to get really excited, to want to share. And what they forget is if they're mean or if they're disrespectful or unkind or just angry. That speaks louder than what you're saying. That makes much more of an impression on people than any truth or point of righteousness or point of equity or equality or social justice. If you're a social justice warrior, which are mean to your spouse and children, are you really a good representative of the cause that you're advocating, or are you going to be convincing? Are they going to pay attention or are they just going to tune you out? And so I think being, you know, what you. They always say who you are, screams so loudly in my ears, I can't hear what you're saying. And I think, is that kind of what you're saying?

1:30:09 Natasha Helfer Yes. But it also comes down to, like, values. So with screen time or how, you know, we recently had talked about how we wanted our Sundays to be rejuvenating and what that might look like to different members. And so we all came up with this idea about reduced screen time on Sundays. There's something about screen time and then realizing, like, oh, we're not just expecting that from our children. Like, we're not having. We're having reduced screen time too. And really taking those things to heart, that we are all trying to be these values that were in a really sort of healthy, loving way, not an accountability, gotcha way. But I was gonna say something really quick about anger, just to be clear, because I think anger has its place in grieving. And so it's not necessarily like, we're not talking about anger in its place and. But when it comes to relating to people, like find safe people, you can be angry with.

1:31:09 Mary Mealing Right.

1:31:09 Natasha Helfer And share and you can be in pain with and talk loss with. It's super important to this process of transitioning. Just don't allow that to be sort of the. Communicate the mode of communication with those who are still believing that that's not the place. But anger is not the problem. It's sort of how we convey and how we live and how we want to do that amidst times that are challenging us, you know?

1:31:40 John Dehlin Yeah. I just like to say anger is a process, not a destination. You want to. You want to notice that you're angry. You want to talk about your anger. You want to understand where your anger is coming from because it's a secondary emotion. It's usually an outgrowth of some other deeper thing. So allow anger to point you inside to work you need to do and growth, but don't just kind of stay there.

1:32:03 Natasha Helfer Right. It should move.

1:32:05 Mary Mealing Yeah.

1:32:05 John Dehlin Okay. We're going to do something a little bit complex. Lisa Butterworth, I know that you have to leave to see a client soon. Having said that, we have a couple questions from Midwest mom that I don't want to just blow off because she stuck with us through this whole thing. So, Lisa, maybe I want to just invite you to, if you can stand as long as you can, but why don't we just have you sort of give a closing thought, let us know again how we can reach you if we want to be in touch with you more, and then you can drop off as soon as you need to. Is that okay?

1:32:38 Lisa Butterworth Yes.

1:32:39 John Dehlin Okay.

1:32:39 Natasha Helfer Yeah.

1:32:41 Lisa Butterworth Actually, I had a thought because I saw the question and I had a. I had, you know, an experience of my own that I wanted to sort of relate to.

1:32:48 Lisa Kais That.

1:32:48 Mary Mealing She asked.

1:32:49 Lisa Butterworth My son's going to EFY this summer. I want to, you know, like, I kind of want to talk to him before he goes have this experience that I feel is going to be kind of brainwashy. And I actually kind of did that with my daughter. She went to her first girls camp and came home and she had such a good experience. Like, it was so positive. And I sort of was like, well, you know, they. Those are really spiritually manipulative. And it's not even that I'm not a believer necessarily. It's just that sometimes I have problems,

1:33:19 Natasha Helfer you know, Like, I was like.

1:33:20 Lisa Butterworth So I was like, yeah, those are spiritually manipulative and blah, blah, blah. And I don't remember what I said to her exactly, but, like, that really hurt her. Like, I didn't mean to hurt her, but, like, I sort of invalidated that experience for her. And, like, I think we get a little bit worried about brainwashy type, blah, blah, blah. And I kind of wish I would

1:33:38 Mary Mealing have just respected that that was a

1:33:40 Lisa Butterworth good experience for her and then asked her, well, what, you know, the same with your kind of conversation after dinner. Were there any experiences that concerned you or, you know, like. Or something? I don't know. But I do regret the way I handled that. So I don't have an answer about that. But I do know that, like, I brought some sadness into my daughter's life. That she didn't need. And I did it because of my issues.

1:34:03 Natasha Helfer Right.

1:34:05 Lisa Butterworth So that's, that's what I have to say about that. But I,

1:34:11 Lisa Kais I have to go

1:34:14 John Dehlin tell our listeners how they find you if they want to seek out your service.

1:34:18 Lisa Butterworth Yes, I am at Symmetry School and I work with Natasha Helfer Parker, who also is on here quite often. And so I do online counseling or if you're in Boise, you can come see me in person.

1:34:33 Natasha Helfer Perfect.

1:34:34 John Dehlin Well, Lisa Butterworth, it's been so wonderful to have you on. Thanks for joining us.

1:34:38 Lisa Butterworth Thank you.

1:34:39 John Dehlin Keep up the good work. We're grateful for all you do.

1:34:42 Lisa Butterworth You, too, John.

1:34:44 John Dehlin All right, take care.

1:34:45 Lisa Butterworth Bye.

1:34:46 John Dehlin All right, Mary and Lisa K. Let's go ahead. Because Midwest mom has been so patient. Lisa B. Kind of read part of her question. You guys can read it there, but I'll just, I'll read it for the listeners. It says, my husband is believing and I'm actively attending but wishing to transition out or at least be more open about my disbelief to my kids. And then she talks about her son attending EFY with cousins. It's gonna be a cousin reunion. She doesn't want to drop a huge bomb on him before he attends this spiritually intensive. She puts in quotes, experience and make him sad the whole time. But I feel the need to start the conversation with him so he's not totally brainwashed this summer. So, Mary, what would your, and there's the second part to the question. What would your response to Midwest mom be?

1:35:38 Mary Mealing That is a tough one. It's hard when you're not, you know, you're going to step into that position as a transitioning person with the leading spouses. And coming out, that's already difficult. So she's already, it sounds like thinking through the ramifications of what she doesn't want for her son. Perhaps, you know, there is an opportunity because as we know now, at least as I know from a transitioning Mormon, that the spiritual experiences that I felt at church were real. They were valid and real experiences, and they were touching to me as a human being. And they moved me and changed me and gave me perspective. But I now know that I have those experiences in many ways and that those are human experiences that maybe come from a different place than I once thought. So it might be an opportunity to just say, to validate his excitement, but also share maybe some of your own personal ways that you've also felt those feelings. I felt that way when I go to church. I also feel that way when I, you know, When I'm skiing down a hill. And I love that feeling, you know, so validate that those feelings are real. But those feelings could have multiple sources. And that might be one way to prepare him to enjoy those feelings and take them in, experience them and experience the love, but also look around and say, you know, wow, I've also had this feeling when I do X, X and X. This is a very real and beautiful human feeling that maybe comes from a God and maybe not, because obviously her son hasn't made that decision either. But she can validate her testimony that they can come from many sources, and that might be one way to handle it.

1:37:09 Natasha Helfer Great idea, Lisa K. I think that

1:37:13 Lisa Kais she said it beautifully. And I think that sometimes we like. I remember being in church when I would push my kids so hard to go to Trek, to go to efo, to go to youth conference, and wanting them to have these fabulous experiences. And then they came home and they lacked a little luster. And so sometimes I think we talk them up too much, or maybe the leaders talk them up too much, or maybe the leaders, because of their preparation, have a wonderful, fabulous time. But not all the kids experience that, you know, So I love what Mary said, you know, tell of other experiences. And I love the University of Utah experimenting they did recently about spiritual experiences. You know, that might be a great resource just to say, look, this is how psychology explains our feelings and explains our spiritual feelings.

1:38:04 Mary Mealing You know, I don't know.

1:38:06 Natasha Helfer One thing I was thinking about, too was just the idea of reflection. I mean, kind of allowing him to have the experience and then maybe taking him to lunch or out for a hike and then really being open and talking to him about his experience. Because what happens with that is it allows for reflection for him to do some reflecting. And a lot. And many times some of those things will come out as they're reflecting that they might not have been aware of had they just kind of moved on to the next thing. So that's. So without an agenda, without trying to get dirt, but honestly saying, what did you love and what really worked for you? And, you know, what were some of your favorite parts and really going deep with those favorite parts and what it gave him and then also saying, you know, you know, I don't know, were there things that didn't resonate so much or were there any things that felt amiss to you or made you feel bad about yourself as a. And maybe there will be and maybe there won't, but I think it's. It's that idea of trusting our children too on their journey that it can feel very foreign to us at times because I do feel like we receive that programming that our kids are kind of depraved and empty vessels and when in fact I feel like they deserve our trust and they do have that inherent goodness and judgment kind of within them too. And so kind of trusting a bit in that that he may be getting something that he needs at this time and that you're, you can be there as sort of someone that is beside him as he goes through his journey as this sort of witness and partner, if you will.

1:39:51 John Dehlin My Midwest mom has a second part to her question. She says suggestions on how to navigate early morning seminary within her mixed faith marriage. Husband is super supportive but wants kids to go to seminary. So they are marginalized at church. And I'm going to give the same answer to both questions and it's going to reflect a lot what's already been said, Midwest mom. And that's just that my advice to you would be don't worry. And this is just my opinion, but as far as churches go, most people in the world go to a church honestly or believe in some religion. And as far as churches and beliefs go, it's hard to imagine, and this is going to be controversial for some, but I think the Mormon Church is generally a great place. I think generally they have leaders that mean well. I think generally they have good outcomes with a lot of different sort of dynamics. There are certainly perils and certainly risks. But I guess I'm saying that if you're going to be part of a religious tradition, there are a lot worse ones I think that you could be a part of really. And this is the one they have. On the flip side, you mentioned at the beginning of your question that you're not totally yet out to your kids. That's going to be the moment that's probably going to be one of the most impactful moments of their life when you come out to them and say you no longer believe. And that's when things really get real. And honestly, until that conversation happens, a lot of the things you're going to say to them, they're probably not going to fully get what you're talking about until they realize, wow, mom doesn't actually believe this stuff anymore. Oh, Mom's not always going with us to church. Oh, Mom's not at my temple. Marriage, you know, that's going to be like an earthquake compared to any conversation you have to them. So that's sort of step one and don't rush. Have that conversation when you feel like it. But the other part that I'd say is the biggest thing you should probably be thinking about is what comes after that. Because if you continue being this wise and loving and caring and committed and connected and devoted mom to your kids out of the church, that's going to be the most powerful thing of all things. There's nothing you could say, no conversation you have pre or post dfy, pre or post seminary, that's ever going to be as powerful as the life you live as a no longer believing mom. And that's not to put this huge pressure on you because kids can do well with or without believing parents. And a lot of it's going to be up to all these factors you can't control. So. And then I do, you know, Natasha, you know, Lisa Butterworth mentioned something Natasha Parker said, which is something that I have been telling participants at workshops and retreats for years, which is if the worst case scenario is that your child becomes an orthodox, believing, committed, devout Mormon who generally tries to live a happy life, healthy life, who generally tries to be a good parent to their children, who generally tries to make the world a better place, that's. That's not the worst. I would submit that's not the worst case scenario. So don't worry. I think as long as you're a loving, connected parent, your. Your kids gonna, your kids gonna do as good as they can do, and you will have done the best that you can do as well.

1:43:31 Lisa Butterworth Great.

1:43:32 Natasha Helfer I was gonna add too.

1:43:33 Mary Mealing I love that.

1:43:35 Natasha Helfer I was gonna say, you know, in this space, I think it's really natural to feel like these decisions are really big and impactful.

1:43:45 John Dehlin Do or die.

1:43:46 Natasha Helfer Yeah. And there's this anxiety and this real sense and I feel that I get you so much there. And the only thing that I was thinking about in reading your question is what does your child think? You know, maybe allow. This is a great thing to talk with your child that's seminary age about, you know, do you want to go? Do you feel like it will help you? Do you and kind of open it up where again, it's about their journey. It's about them connecting to their inner voice as they go and what might feel right to them and having it be more, less anxiety about the actual decision and more about the opportunity to connect with your child. They live to kind of tap into their kind of inner resources and try to make those decisions that feel right and then be there for the child along the way with the seminary experience and tap into that and how it's working and how it's feeling.

1:44:46 John Dehlin Love it.

1:44:47 Natasha Helfer That's my two cents.

1:44:48 John Dehlin All right, so we've reached the end of this episode. We've gone almost two hours, and it's been a great conversation. I feel like we've covered a lot of the main topics between this episode and the previous one. Parents have a lot of good things to think about. Maybe some extra tools to consider when they're speaking with their believing children or just their children who are transitioning. Either one. If it's all right. Mary and Lisa K. We're gonna have each of you kind of give a closing thought as we thank you and bid you goodbye at the end of this episode. So, Lisa K. Why don't we have you start, give us a final thought as we close, and then, Mary, you'll go next.

1:45:28 Lisa Kais Okay, great. This has been a pleasure, and I admire all the work that y' all do and just. I'm so happy to be a part of it. So thank you for inviting me.

1:45:37 Lisa Butterworth Thank you for letting me be a part.

1:45:38 Lisa Kais I guess my closing thought would be that I just. Love is always the answer with your kids, with anybody. Love, love, love. Love is always the answer. And I. I can remember feeling this great pressure when I was a mom in the Mormon Church, trying to be the perfect Mormon mother and trying to push my kids to have a testimony and push them to do all the things that I thought they should be doing and shove and pull and mold them. However I thought they needed to be molded so that we would have no empty chairs at our table in heaven. And that was always worrisome. It was always on my mind. I always felt like I wasn't enough. I always felt like I wasn't a good enough mom. I wasn't faithful enough. I wasn't doing all the things that I needed to be doing for all my children to be there and my husband. And that was very difficult for me. And then when I. When my shelf fell and I quit believing, all at once, I was all right. I was all right, Mother. And I no longer gave the church the authority or any leader in the church the authority to say that my family wasn't going to be together. And I don't know what that looks like anymore. I don't know. I'm hopeful that there are families after this life. I hope so. But when that authority fell and I didn't have to push and shove and mold, we just blossomed. And we were great before, but now we're greater as a family. And there's so Much love and so much respect and so much care for each other. So in or out, just don't push too hard, don't mold too much. You're doing great. You're great just how you are. So keep up the greatness.

1:47:35 John Dehlin Love it. Thank you, Lisa K. Mary.

1:47:39 Mary Mealing Gee, that's hard to follow. Lisa, that was beautiful. And I really can. A lot of that resonates with me as well. That's been. The joy of transitioning is waking up every day and saying, what great possibility does my life hold for me? And I want that for my family. And at the same time, I want to still be that guiding presence in life, in the lives of my children and my grandchildren. So the thing that I think I would like to just say at the end is just where we started. Kind of give it time. Be patient, be understanding. I've had to learn. I'm gonna have to accept some things that I can't control. I can't control that my granddaughters probably will look at Don and I as though there's something wrong with us, that we made a decision that was wrong and that's not their fault. That's the paradigm that they're in, and I'm okay with that, because then I will redouble my efforts to make sure they know they're loved, they're cared for, that I still have great things to teach them and offer them, and they're the most important things in my life. So I think that's where we doubled down and do that. I think, you know, I can only control my journey. I can't really control the journey of any other person. And so I have to respect their right to make that journey and love them through it and respect all the good that comes from Mormonism. As you were saying, John, I can see that there's so much good for my family, so much good for my believing children in the church, so much that they'll gain from it. And I want them to take. Take all the good. And in my own life, I want to take all that good and then just leave the bad behind. So I just think time, patience, love, respect, and that's how we deal with our children going forward.

1:49:12 Lisa Butterworth Beautiful.

1:49:13 John Dehlin Beautiful. All right, well, Mary Mee Ling, Lisa Kais and Lisa Butterworth, it's been so nice to have all three of you, your wonderful women, women super wise. This has been great. So just thank you. Thank you all for joining us. It's been great.