What are the most difficult aspects of a Mormon Faith Crisis?

Episode 5

0:20 John Dehlin Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. I am one of your co hosts. My name is John. Dr. John Delin. It is December 18, 2018, and I am joined by Margie.

0:35 Margi Dehlin Hey, everyone.

0:37 John Dehlin Life coach Margie Delin. And of course, joining us from Wichita, Kansas, is the brilliant and wonderful Natasha Helfer Parker.

0:46 Natasha Helfer I just need to have you introduce me all the time, and then I feel really good about myself.

0:52 John Dehlin The beautiful, strong, courageous, resilient, wonderful, charismatic, charismatic, sensitive.

0:59 Margi Dehlin We're gonna record this, and then when you wake up in the morning, this is how you'll wake up.

1:03 Natasha Helfer I just have to, like, yeah, do my Wonder Woman pose and listen to Don and Mark introduce it. I love it.

1:12 John Dehlin No, but you are all those things. I'm not even making that up.

1:17 Natasha Helfer Thank you.

1:18 John Dehlin That's legit. That's legit stuff.

1:20 Natasha Helfer Well, I think you guys are awesome, too. I need to work on my. On my. Like Markie and John.

1:26 John Dehlin Yeah, you get right on that, Natash.

1:30 Natasha Helfer Next time, I'll start off. Welcome.

1:34 John Dehlin All right, and welcome to our wonderful live viewing audience. We always have a wonderful viewing audience as well, and so we want to welcome them. And thanks for joining us. We have so much to cover today, and today is a really exciting episode. And in reality, I'm completely lying because today is a bit of a heavy episode today. The topic is the question that we're answering because we want these episodes on Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis to be responses to people's questions and journeys. The question that we're answering today is, what are the most difficult aspects of a Mormon faith crisis? That sounds heavy.

2:22 Margi Dehlin Yeah, we're going there. It's important.

2:25 John Dehlin We're going there. Natasha, are you ready?

2:27 Natasha Helfer I'm ready.

2:28 John Dehlin Are you strapped in?

2:29 Natasha Helfer I am ready to be gloomy and sad, stressed.

2:35 Margi Dehlin We're feeling the heavy already.

2:37 John Dehlin Now, Natasha, since you're like an expert pro therapist with decades of experience, what in the possible world value is there in us exploring the hard stuff in an episode? Why would that be useful?

2:53 Natasha Helfer Well, I think one is that the first thing it does is that it keeps people from feeling isolated in their own hardships so they don't feel like they're so alone or they're weird or crazy. These are all the words I hear. People come in, I think I'm going crazy, or I must be the only one, or so it helps people understand that they're not alone.

3:13 Margi Dehlin And.

3:13 Natasha Helfer And then secondly, I think it normalizes the experience. And what we mean by that is just, you know, that this Isn't an abnormal experience that this is part of going through any major transition or change, that there's loss to that. And then third, you know, I think we'll get to it. Not necessarily this episode, but there's growth and shift and new perspectives and change that doesn't always have to be negative just because there has been a loss. So, you know, those are what comes to the top of my mind.

3:48 John Dehlin I love it. Anything you want to add?

3:50 Margi Dehlin No, I love that. I also would say too, that, you know, when you bring things to light in a very intentional way, like the things that we're talking about today, things that tend to be heavier, when you don't do that, they tend to come and find you, you know, where you're living, whether that's in coping or in your relationships, they tend to come find you anyway. So this is a. This is a way to kind of shine light and be empowered and be very intentional about how you want to respond as opposed to reactionary when it just kind of blows up or comes to get you.

4:25 John Dehlin I love it.

4:27 Margi Dehlin Just an idea.

4:27 John Dehlin All right, so sit back and enjoy this cathartic and expressive and painful but ultimately rewarding and satisfying episode. Everybody want to shout out to Victoria and Mindy and Sarah, who's joined us on Facebook. And we want to give a shout out to several people who decided to go up to MormonFaithCrisis.com and financially support this show. We received donations from Amber, Gretchen, Anthony, Ann and Casey since our last episode and we're just really grateful for those who are willing to do that. So thank you. Shout out to you guys. We're super grateful. That means the world. We have some announcements that we want to begin with. Natasha, are you comfortable stating our mission? We like to always begin with our mission. Do you have that readily available?

5:34 Natasha Helfer Yeah. So we have a three part mission and they all start with P's, which is fabulous. And this is all Margie's doing because she's so smart and wonderful. So we want to be a positive influence. We want to have a positive perspective. We want to have a practical perspective. So in other words, usefulness, skills, strategies, et cetera. And we want to be personal, so we want to personalize this to your individual needs. So positive, practical and personal tips for navigating a Mormon faith crisis. That's our mission, which I think is very nicely, kind of covers everything that we're going to be about and how in the world.

6:16 John Dehlin Why do we add the gift to the beginning of the title? Natasha? Why in the world when it could be so painful. Do we want to call it a gift?

6:25 Natasha Helfer And before I go there, I forgot one part. Or for those wishing to understand those in faith crisis, because that's a big part of who we're trying to reach out to as well. This is not just for people who are transitioning. Oftentimes people who are transitioning are attached to people who are not transitioning. You know, whether that's your spouse or that's your child or your parent or your friend or your ward member, or maybe you're a bishop or a relief society president, and you have somebody in your ward who is struggling in this way, and you don't really know how to access them. So. So anyway, we want to be, you know, hopefully we present ourselves in a way that we're really safe across the spectrum, that we're going to be really presenting these things in ways that are respectful to wherever people are at in their own belief place. Now, why it's a gift. Well, this is actually a very Mormon thing, right? So I think the idea that we learn from our trials, that we are meant to come here and experience and have, you know, different ideas and different things, I think that oftentimes, even though in Mormonism we're not necessarily very comfortable people leaving our faith, as in most faiths, most people don't like it when people leave their own faith. There are a lot of opportunities. There are. There's room for growth. There's room for new perspectives, there's room for reworking relationships. You may be fairly safe and comfortable in a relationship that now all of a sudden has to grow.

7:47 Margi Dehlin And.

7:48 Natasha Helfer And even though that's painful at first, oftentimes what we find is that the other end of that kind of growth and painful process are new intimacies, deeper connections, more intentional spaces with our own spirituality or our own ideas or belief systems. So this really can be for both those who are transitioning and those who are supporting those who are transitioning. There can be a lot of wonderful things that come out of this that aren't always so present in that moment of crisis or sadness or discomfort that we initially usually feel, which is what we're going to be talking about today.

8:24 John Dehlin Love it. All right, thanks for that, Natasha. A couple other quick announcements. We now are on itunes, so if you want to subscribe to our podcast, you can go to itunes, type in Mormon Faith Crisis, and it should pop right up. And while you're in there, if you want to give us a positive review, we'd love that. That always can help. Spread the word. But make sure and check us out on itunes and spread the word about that. We have some events coming up that we want to make you aware of. Natasha, do you want to talk about the first event?

9:00 Margi Dehlin Yes.

9:00 Natasha Helfer On December 28, I will be doing a three hour workshop for mixed faith couples in the Sandy area. I'll be in Utah for Christmas breaks, so that kind of works out for me. I've got about half the registrants. All right. I only have so much room, so if you want to come, make sure you sign up because it's already half full. And we're going to be talking about just some tips and strategies for navigating a mixed faith marriage. So these have gone really well in the past. Usually both people feel very comfortable. That's one thing that I kind of pride myself on is trying to make sure everybody's comfortable, whether of the believer or the non believer, and advocating for both of you. So please consider coming if you feel like that's an area in your life that you need some help with.

9:48 John Dehlin I'm jealous. I want to be there with you and do that with you.

9:53 Natasha Helfer I think we feel about that a lot with each other.

9:55 John Dehlin I know. That's good. I'm glad you're doing that. Super glad. Also, we want to announce something really exciting. Natasha has been doing this for a while and she was gracious enough to invite me and Margie to join with her. We're doing an intensive couples retreat in Salt Lake City the weekend of February 15th to 17th. And just imagine spending two and a half days with several, a few amazing couples and me and Natasha and Margie just giving you intensive, personal, customized experiential tools and learning and experiences and maybe we'll even eat some good food and have some good fun together. Did I miss anything, Natasha?

10:46 Natasha Helfer No. I mean, we've done retreats before where there's lots of people who attend, you know, 40, 50 people who attend and those are very useful as well. And of course they're much more cost effective. But we oftentimes get requests for more in intensive work and of course doing one on one work is also somewhat expensive. So if you come to this retreat, for example, you're probably, you know, if you break it down to the hours, you're probably going to get us at half the price you would, you know, get us if you were going to spend all those hours working with us in a coaching type of setting. So. So it is cost effective in that way and we just will make it really individualized so not generalized. Like some of the other retreats are.

11:29 John Dehlin Absolutely. And oftentimes you learn as much or more from other couples than you do from the guides or the coaches or the therapists. And you can even make relationships that can last a lifetime. That's often come out of these retreats

11:47 Natasha Helfer and out of the ones I've done before. People have always, when I say, you know, was the financial value worth what you got? They always say, it exceeded that. So that's nice feedback to get.

12:02 John Dehlin Shout out to Laura, Ian, and Stephanie, Margie's cousin, for joining us, as well as Christine. So thanks to everyone again on Facebook for joining us. And that's our announcements, other than just to remind people that if they want to check out these events, go to mormonfaithcrisis.com events and they can register for the events there. And of course, we want to make sure everyone remembers that Margie, Natasha, and I have a limited clientele list for people who really need direct coaching and support. All of our loads are full, but if you really need support, please reach out again at mormonfaithcrisis.com you can find our coaching information there. We will do our best to make time to support you and your individual needs if you need it. And if not, that's even better. Right, because we're pretty busy.

12:59 Margi Dehlin Yes. And we can meet you here.

13:01 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah, we'll meet you here on the podcast. So. All right, well, without any further ado, it's time to move to our what's working section, where each of us shares something in our life journey that's working. And, Margie, I think you need to go first. But that's just my opinion. You might feel differently.

13:18 Margi Dehlin I think I will.

13:19 John Dehlin Okay.

13:19 Margi Dehlin Okay. So something that's been working for me lately, every week I go to yoga with my daughter, Maya, and that's been something that's really fun. We go to a community center actually here, where I would probably say maybe 75% of the class is over the age of 60. And so it is inspiring. I love getting to know people there, and I just love being with Maya. And when we are lucky, Jeffrey, her love comes too. And then afterwards, we go and grab a hot drink. So that is something. It's a great way to connect. It's a great way to kind of center ourselves. And so that is something that is definitely working on many, many levels.

14:06 John Dehlin High five. Nice job. And I can attest that it's a good thing for Margie and the fam. And Maya, Natasha, what's working for you?

14:17 Natasha Helfer So what I chose to talk about today. So I've always had a hard time sleeping at night, falling asleep. So I know there's different types of insomnia. Once I'm asleep, I usually stay asleep, so I don't have that problem. But going to sleep is usually an issue for me. I. It's when my brain starts going and I start thinking about 500 different things. There's lots of ways that people have encouraged me to try things out and mindfulness techniques and things like this. Oftentimes what happens when I try things out and they don't work is that then I just shame myself like, oh, see, I can't even do this right. I finally found something that works for me and it may not be the best thing ever because screen time and all that stuff, but I do a combination. I have usually an audiobook that's downloaded and I'll just pop that in and I'll play like something like Tetris, which actually has some research to back it up, that Tetris can help you fall asleep even though it's on the screen. So I usually see myself like usually within 10 minutes of doing the Tetris. I kind of like I'm tired enough that the Tetris kind of goes goodbye and then I'm still listening and. And then I can just go to sleep. So it's very helpful in kind of stopping those intrusive thoughts that come into my mind that otherwise can keep me up for hours. So sometimes the solutions aren't like the ideal solutions, but it works for me and I'm all about usefulness. So there you go.

15:53 John Dehlin Do you ever get discouraged or sad, Natasha, that we try to be helpers and healers and yet we've got our own struggles and pains and dysfunctions. Does that ever get you down?

16:06 Natasha Helfer I don't know if it gets me down. So my best relationship with that is my house. I work in my house office. And so I have people who come to my office here in Kansas still. And so every time I open the door I'm like, yeah, so welcome to my mess. Right? So it's not going to be like this ideal space, including my office oftentimes is a little bit messy. You only get to see, see this nice little corner that's always clean. And my clients consistently say, oh, it's so good to know that you're normal. It's so good to know that you're normal. And I think sometimes I think what's more discouraging for me is not that I struggle, it's that there's this kind of like, separation between mental health professional and client where we feel, you know, we have maybe this idealized space that I think only helps to. To separate us versus to connect us.

16:59 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

17:00 Natasha Helfer So I'm pretty comfortable with my quirks and my challenges.

17:04 John Dehlin That's what I was fishing for. And I like that we have. So we have a tagline which is, you know, helpers. Yeah, but. But there's a sub tagline which is welcome to our mess.

17:15 Natasha Helfer Right,

17:18 John Dehlin Right. Welcome to our mess. The gift of the faith crisis. Welcome to our mess.

17:24 Natasha Helfer Right. That's perfect.

17:29 John Dehlin All right, well, let's jump into the main event, which is the topic for today.

17:35 Margi Dehlin You have to share what's working for you.

17:36 John Dehlin Oh, what's working for me?

17:37 Margi Dehlin Can't skip you.

17:38 John Dehlin You know, what's working for me is getting coaching and therapy. So I'm blessed with the ability to work with a few coaches myself. So not only do I try and help others, but I often need help, and sometimes I need help really desperately.

17:58 Margi Dehlin And we have a tagline for that too.

18:01 John Dehlin What's that?

18:01 Margi Dehlin It's helpers need help.

18:03 John Dehlin Helpers need help.

18:04 Margi Dehlin We're not beyond help.

18:06 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think our listeners should take that challenge not just, you know, to do self improvement, but to be there for others. I think that's a core human need, is to. To show leadership or show support for others as well. And I definitely need a lot of support. And so I sought out a coach for four hours this week, and this coach has been really helping me in significant ways, and so it's been really powerful. And I just. I recommend getting support wherever you can.

18:43 Margi Dehlin Good for you, babe.

18:44 John Dehlin Thank you. Okay, now we're ready.

18:47 Margi Dehlin We're ready.

18:48 John Dehlin All right, so we're going to jump into the most kind of a. You know, we've already previewed it, but kind of a difficult topic, or at least a painful topic or cathartic topic, which is what are the most difficult aspects of a Mormon faith crisis? And Natasha already set it up for why this is important. It's to help people not feel alone. It's to help normalize difficult things. It's to help people be aware. It's to be real. It's to be vulnerable. It's to help people know what to expect. In fact, we could rename this episode what to expect when having a Faith Crisis, because these are the things you're gonna have to watch out for, and we're gonna leave you with hope at the end, but we're not gonna try and rush to resolve all these issues that we bring up. So we're gonna be bringing these issues up. But also we want to encourage our listeners who are joining us live on Facebook to share what's been most difficult for them in the text box and what went right, what went wrong, or just anything they want to share. Because we would love to incorporate that, when we can, into this discussion because that makes it more interesting and interactive and hopefully more helpful for you, our listeners. So let's, let's dive right in. And the first one that I have listed, and I've tried to incorporate Margie, yours and Natasha's points, although you can, if we get to the end and we haven't incorporated yours, you guys can add others. Is that all right? The first one that I want that I, that I have listed is communicating and coexisting with family and friends. And just to set this up,

20:34 Margi Dehlin we

20:35 John Dehlin thrive as mammals, as humans, not only as social, tribal creatures, but the fundamental building block of human nurturing and development and intimacy and well being is the family. And so it makes complete sense that probably the most difficult aspect of a faith crisis is how to navigate your relationship with your parents, if they're believers, your spouse, if your spouse is a believer or orthodox, your children if they're orthodox, if you've raised them to be orthodox, your in laws, if you're married and your in laws happen to be orthodox, and of course siblings and cousins and aunts and uncles and all of that extended family. And I would even argue there are going to be individual difficulties in terms of identity and spirituality and mental health and well being, and we can talk about those later. But I'm going to argue that for some reason, family difficulty and family trauma can even trump individual difficulty. Now, Natasha, you're a marriage and family therapist. Can you check me on that? Is that, is that.

22:01 Natasha Helfer No, I would agree with that. I think we're primarily tribal. I call us pack animals all the time that we live in packs, tribes. And so it's one thing to be going through something individual and, you know, kind of challenge yourself and all of that, which is also difficult. But when you're in the context of a supportive environment, that's much easier to do versus when you're in the context of an environment where you don't feel understood or you feel misrepresented or anything along those lines. So, no, I would totally agree that the relational aspect, we are all part of a system. And that is not, it's not like we're individuals first, we're systems and within that, we are individuals.

22:47 John Dehlin What do you think?

22:49 Margi Dehlin Yeah, I totally. And I think it is, I don't know, more grave. Even with the control aspect, I think that is oftentimes involved, and then the othering that happens, along with kind of this uniformity. And then if you're different and then being othered, that compounds, of course, how difficult it can be to communicate and exist within relationships where they may be still in or they may feel differently than you do.

23:22 Natasha Helfer So, yeah, just imagine, for example, if you have, like a young person and they come and they say, you know, I'm really excited to explore my spirituality, and you've got the tribe that's like, we support you, we love you. We send you off with our love and our guidance. You know, up to the mountain, go pray, go do whatever you're going to do to find yourself. Right. Whereas you have the same person come and say, hey, I'm going to explore my spirituality. And the response is very different. There you have an individual problem, but in the context of two very different systems, which one's going to have an easier, more profound moment.

24:02 John Dehlin I hope this isn't totally inappropriate to invoke, but something that comes to my mind is the research that I, that I discovered getting my PhD in clinical counseling psychology around what's called the Family Acceptance Project, which is this really important body of work that Dr. Caitlin Ryan did out of San Francisco State University. And it applies directly to LGBT youth. But I think it's got broader applications. And what they found is family rejection is associated with a threefold increase in risky sexual behavior, a threefold increase in illegal drug use, and an eight fold increase in suicidality. And, you know, her basic point is that when people, when youth are highly rejected, and in the study because of LGBT concerns, that was probably the number one factor she could uncover in youth and young adult suicidality. And I think that it's not the same situation for people in faith crisis at all. And I'm not trying to say that, but that is one example that can highlight what the stakes are and the complications. And as I've made a few notes here, you know, these complications can extend in many ways. So one complication is just in coming out.

25:40 Margi Dehlin So this would be in the context of marriage, that relationship. It can be marriage, and then as well, to family, parents, friends.

25:48 John Dehlin It doesn't have to be marriage. It can just be, you're a young adult and you have to tell your parents, I'm not. I'm not going on a mission, or I'm. Or, yeah, I came home from my mission, but I'm not getting married in the temple or I'm not going to stay active in the church. So it can be parents, but it can also be your spouse. And, Natasha, I know the answer to this, but is it fair to say that a marriage can immediately. An otherwise. Let's just say comfortable marriage can be immediately put in jeopardy once someone comes out in a faith crisis. Is that fair to say?

26:22 Natasha Helfer Yeah, that can definitely happen. I mean, it's not necessarily what always happens, but there's a reason why people are afraid to come out.

26:32 John Dehlin Yeah. So it can be coming out again to close family members. And then beyond that, it's just communication. Because when you go through a faith crisis, all of a sudden you see the world. It's as if you've put on new glasses or you've discovered a new dimension, and you all of a sudden, your life is built on a whole different set of foundations or you have no foundation anymore. You may be using a new vocabulary. You may be seeing all the sacred symbols you saw before in a completely different light. Sometimes frustrated or angry or disenchanted, and then you're just disoriented and sometimes angry. And that can make you really hard to. It can make it really hard to communicate with others, and it can make you, frankly, hard to be around. Was I hard to be around when I was going through my faith crisis, Margie?

27:34 Margi Dehlin Well, there were times, for sure.

27:36 John Dehlin You mean years. When you say times, you mean years.

27:39 Margi Dehlin I'm gonna. I'll leave it to times.

27:42 John Dehlin You mean it's still hard, Is that what you're saying?

27:44 Margi Dehlin No. Yeah, that's hard. It's hard. Also, I think with communication, something that comes into play is that we'll get into as we go through the podcast is also how you can communicate in a way where you. You increase the odds that you remain emotionally connected, that the other person can feel safe. Right. And a lot of that is literally learning boundaries, literally learning language of safety, which we don't come by naturally, I don't think, because we've been kind of. We've grown up in this paradigm of similarity of. Right.

28:26 John Dehlin So, and so I think the point you're highlighting is that we. Someone in a faith crisis tends to make others feel unsafe, or they can do that, whether it's by attacking their religion or threatening someone's worldview or their sense of security about the afterlife or the covenants that were made or whatever it was, we tend to make people feel unsafe.

28:51 Margi Dehlin We can. And also, I was bringing up this idea that skilled communication, it's a skill you can learn to, I think better connect with those we love in a way that feels safer, at least increases the odds that it will be perceived in a safe way, if that makes sense.

29:13 John Dehlin Yeah.

29:13 Natasha Helfer Well, onto both of your points, I think what we're really getting at is that difference in general makes us feel unsafe. Yeah. So even if you're really well skilled at it, just the fact that there's a difference that didn't exist before is going to be a shift. It's going to be a change. It's going to be hard. We don't respond well to change, even though we all want even positive change we don't respond well to. So any shift is going to be just naturally difficult.

29:41 Margi Dehlin Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Because change is the big constant.

29:46 Natasha Helfer It is the big constant and yet we resist it every step of the way.

29:51 Margi Dehlin Why?

29:51 Natasha Helfer Differentiation skills? I think that's what you're talking about. Differentiation skills are so important to build and we'll talk about that in the future.

29:59 John Dehlin I love just this idea that it sounds gloomy, but I don't think it is because it's got an acceptance component which we know is healthy. I love that. This idea that you could say everything right, you could do everything right and it's still going to be fraught.

30:14 Margi Dehlin It will be fraught, right?

30:16 Natasha Helfer Yeah.

30:18 John Dehlin We've got some comments coming in from our listeners, so I'm just going to share. Rachel writes, I lost my mom in 2016. Suddenly our hearts are out to you, Rachel. Rachel says her aunt told her two days ago that her mom was crying over her in heaven over her choice to step away from the church and she's devastated. Rachel, we are so sorry that you're probably well intentioned aunt just to give her the benefit of the doubt or scared, terrified aunt told you spoke for your mother in that way. That would be really hard. So our heart goes out to you, Rachel. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing something hard and you just illustrate how complicated and fraud it can be. So thank you Rachel for sharing. KJC writes, yes, I'm scared to death to share the challenges I have with the church, with my family. We did such a great job. Oh wow. We did such a great job. And I am going to substitute the word brainwashing KJC only because we want to model healthy communication and we have believers listening as well. And so kjc, would you mind if I recommended a different term than brainwashing? Maybe teaching or even if you want to get edgy, indoctrinating. And of course, you can use that term if you want, for this show. We want to try and all, including myself, work on trying to select words that are not as threatening. And if we can practice doing that amongst ourselves, we won't be in the habit of using those sorts of words when we're trying to communicate with believers, which I think we all want to do on some level. So teaching his children, our children, KJC writes, just like we were taught. They know something is up, but not to the extent of my discontent. I'm watching your podcasts about talking with family, and they're helpful, but I still am terrified to tell my daughter, whose daughter is getting married in April in the Salt Lake City Temple. And you ask a question, do I lie to the counselor for a temple recommend or lie to my kids and claim I'm not well for the temple ceremony? That is a question that we're going to save. So I'm going to write that down as a question. How do we handle the temple and the temple recommend as a suggested topic. And kjc, we are going to do our best to. Do you mind adding that really quick to these notes? And then we're going to do our best to answer that in an upcoming episode. So stay tuned for that. But what we want to do right now, kjc, is empathize with you, Natasha. Do you want to empathize with kjc?

33:21 Natasha Helfer Yeah. I really appreciate your idea about languaging. And we want to also make room for KJC is probably anger and sense of being justified in using that word. And we're always, you know, here at Mormon Faith Crisis, we're big fans of the yes and strategy. Right? And so it's like, yes, I can be totally ticked off and I can be so mad that the word brainwash can seem very appropriate, you know, And I want to use that word. And we do have phases of anger where maybe even using those types of words is appropriate. At the same time, I just want to remind everybody that because we are born as pack animals and try into tribes, none of us escape influence of other people. So this idea that only Mormons, you know, were brainwashed, I mean, all people are born into cultures and narratives and scripts and meanings. And, you know, whether you were born into a Catholic family or a Jewish family or a Jehovah's Witness family or now we do different fundamentalism, you know, within those religions. At the same time, I think it's important to just be kind to ourselves and to our ancestors that we all probably were, quote unquote, indoctrinated in ways that just made sense, the culture at the time. And you don't escape that as a human. You really don't.

34:42 Margi Dehlin That is so crucial.

34:44 John Dehlin Love it. Kgc. We hope you don't feel picked on. You wrote later on.

34:47 Natasha Helfer Sure.

34:48 John Dehlin With an exclamation point. So I'm guessing you're okay with that coaching. We appreciate your good spiritedness. And I would not be complete if I didn't read Courtney's comment, because Courtney was our very first supporter. To this version of the podcast, shout out to Courtney. We love you, Courtney. In Portland, Courtney shares. It's hard wanting your loved ones to understand your choice but not wanting to hurt their faith. I don't want to put anyone else into a faith crisis. That is beautifully put, Courtney. That's what Courtney, you're highlighting is the tension between two values. Values are important. We all should have them. But sometimes values rub up against each other. So Courtney's talking about the value of authenticity, Right. Honesty and honesty. And the value of compassion, sensitivity and relationship. And relationship. And sometimes we think, I've got to be authentic. I've got to be open and honest and vulnerable and speak my truth. And we beat people over the head with that value at the expense of compassion. Margie, what's the quote? You always taught me about honesty and compassion and cruelty.

36:10 Margi Dehlin Why don't you say it?

36:12 John Dehlin You don't remember?

36:13 Margi Dehlin I know it's about if.

36:15 John Dehlin Yeah, Margie taught me once, and that's how good of a teacher she is. She's taught me so much, she doesn't even remember half of. She's forgotten more than I've learned, basically from her. But Margie says, compat, honesty without compassion can be cruelty, right?

36:35 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

36:35 John Dehlin Now, why would you have ever had to tell me that?

36:37 Margi Dehlin Pretty sure that quote came from someone else that we should be citing, but. But still. Yes.

36:44 John Dehlin Yeah. So thank you, Courtney, for sharing that tension. Yeah, we love it. You guys are giving great comments and perspectives. Please keep it coming. We love it. Okay, so coming out is hard. And we're going to do our own episode on that. Coming out. We're going to do our own episode on communicating with believing family and friends. We could do a whole year on communicating with believing family and friends. Another real difficult part of a faith crisis is feeling like a disappointment. And I'm going to up the ante a little bit. I like to talk about this idea of the Nephi complex, one of the stereotypes we addressed a couple episodes Back is that people have a faith crisis, you know, go through it, because they never really cared or believed or, you know, really were that committed. They were lazy or wanted to sin. We know that many of the people that we work with in our coaching practices actually lost their faith as a result of caring so much. And so they learned or they studied or they wanted to deepen their testimonies and that led them to, you know, uncover problems or historical issues or social justice issues or spiritual issues that. That led them to a faith crisis. But they were used to being the assistance of the president on the missions or the Relief Society presidents or the bishopric members or the bishops or the stake young women's leaders or whatever it was. And so they used to be viewed as noble and great like the Nephi. And now one of the hardest parts is feeling like you're a disappointment. You were going to say something sweet.

38:28 Margi Dehlin I was also going to say that happens in families too. Like in a family paradigm where you're highly approved of, you know, and I think by parents, you're the good one or you're the, you know, and that oftentimes you can lose that in your sort of family as well. This idea, your role. Yeah, you. And you can feel like a disappointment to your parents. And for many people, it's especially difficult if they were Nephi, if at some point they felt like Nephi in their family or at some point embodied that role. And then they have this fall, if you will, right where the parents view them now as just disappointing.

39:11 John Dehlin And I love what you're saying, Margie, because something that I. Natasha, I want you to speak to this. I see this in my coaching practice all the time. Let's say there's a couple that gets married, and let's just say in this case there was a husband that maybe was a bit more of a slacker, but a wife that was super devout and in their system, which I know you like to talk about, Natasha, it was the wife that always called the family home evening. And the wife that always called everyone to scripture study. And the husband felt comfortable in a bit of a, okay, that's where you're going to lead. I'll go make the money or do other things. Then all of a sudden, the wife has the faith crisis, and it's the husband that's like, wait a minute, you were the strong one and I was leaning on you. Now you've lost your faith and now I have to get stronger and more faithful because we were all relying on you for that. Do you ever See that in your studies and in your coaching practice, Natasha.

40:11 Natasha Helfer Yeah, this one really hits pretty personal, actually. I mean, yes, I do see it all the time. I think this is a very. I think I've heard you talk about the canoe analogy, right? Like if one person stands up in the canoe and the other person is like going to hunker down then in the canoe, right? So one person standing up, going, danger, danger, and trying to ward off the shark or whatever, the other person is going to hunker down. So you kind of have this, like, you were pretty close and all of a sudden you kind of feel like this. Like you both take a step in the opposite direction of where you once were, which was fairly similar. So anyway, but, you know, as you've talked, as I've heard you talk about the Nephi complex, it's been interesting to watch my own process because anytime I'm slightly uncomfortable with a concept, it's usually because I'm struggling with it. So thank you, John, for that.

41:05 John Dehlin Were you the Nephi or were you not the Nephi?

41:07 Natasha Helfer I think that this is where I want to just complicate it a little bit. Like, I do agree with that. Loss of stuff, status, loss of, like a role that we play in our families and in our churches and all of that. And at the same time, I want to just say this is the yes. And that, that doesn't mean that because when we use the word complex, it feels like maybe we're doing something wrong, right? Or there's something dysfunctional about it. I feel like there's true relational betrayal here. And that's what I have felt. You know, I haven't left. I still participate. I still consider myself Mormon and I still consider myself, like what I say, an abstract believer. So, you know, when I, when I think back on all the times I helped, you know, just with my time and my energy, and all I wanted to do was serve and all the things that I do now that seem to be what rubs a lot of people the wrong way is only because I'm trying to be helpful. But then I'm seen as an enemy, right? Or influenced by Satan or is a bad influence to others where I'm not even trusted to teach in Relief Society anymore, you know, or things like that, then I lose credibility and it is an ultimate rejection. So I do agree with the Nephi complex and I think I definitely fall in that category that I'm having to deal with the loss of a status that I enjoyed at some level. And I think there's something Actually very real happening too, where I am getting rejected, where I am being seen as non credible. And that's truly painful for truly legitimate reasons. Does that make sense?

42:38 Margi Dehlin I think that's very, very important. And also to go along with that, I do think it isn't just status. It can just be that we've been raised also, and this is a parenting paradigm as well as a religious paradigm to be very like, very sensitive to approval. And that's another thing that you lose is you lose this sense of being approved of. And for those of us who are very young in that which oftentimes in transition, we are. You know, that can be a very painful process because it feels a lot like love is withdrawn right in that moment. So it is status. And I think it is sort of this idea of. And it's also as simple as to many of us, it can translate into a loss of love. It feels like a loss of just someone really seeing you and valuing you.

43:33 John Dehlin Love it. Natasha, you can complicate our points anytime.

43:39 Natasha Helfer Well, that one was complicated because I've heard you talk about there and I'm sitting with myself going, yeah, maybe I just have a Nephi complex. I need to get over that. And then. But then there's another part of me that's like, yeah, but I have a right to be really hurt by this system that has rejected me in so many ways that I love and that I've only tried to serve. Right. So it's a complicated balance between those things.

44:01 Margi Dehlin Absolutely. I view it as a very, very real thing, for sure.

44:08 John Dehlin We have another comment from one of our Facebook listeners, which we always love. Lisa writes, I just went through this conversation with my mom. I felt it important to express to her that I am still a good Christian and that I am still seeking out God and his love for me. Even though I have stepped away from the church, it seemed to keep the conversation calm but open for her to understand my perspective of the journey I'm now taking. Margie, what do you think about Lisa's approach?

44:39 Margi Dehlin Yeah, well, I love that conscious intention for her and I feel like, you know, that's where it all begins is in those small moments of trying to kind of connect and convey with. Convey to the best we can with what we're feeling to those we love. So very brave.

44:59 John Dehlin We'll get to this when we talk about solutions. But one crucial component of communicating with believing family and friends is to build on common values. And so you nailed it, Lisa. That we think that when we've lost our faith we have nothing in common anymore. Or when we've lost our orthodox faith, we have nothing in common anymore, we with orthodox Mormons. And that's just, if I can say it, malarkey. Everyone still believes in being honest. Everyone still believes in being kind. Hopefully everyone still believes in serving others. Everyone still believes in, you know, hopefully healthy relationships and family and love and, you know, there's health and maybe you enjoy entertainment or sports or music or theater or whatever it is. There are a million positive things you can communicate with an orthodox believer about. Or if you're an orthodox believer with someone who's left the church, you need to not focus on this narrow sliver of differences. You know, Book of Mormon this or Joseph Smith that, or, you know, LGBT this or that. I mean, those can be big things. I'm not saying they're not, but in the scheme of a life, you know, I'm not going to have on my tombstone exactly what I thought about the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I'm not going to have on my tombstone, you know, even what I was an ally for or what parade I marched in. Hopefully it's going to be, he was a good dad, a good husband, a good humanitarian, he was kind. And we still share all that stuff.

46:39 Natasha Helfer I often talk about this, like being finding our math skills and finding the common denominators. You know, in some situations it was very easy, like 2 over 4 and 3 over 4. But in other situations it was a lot harder. If I remember my elementary school math, absolutely.

46:58 John Dehlin It's not always easy, but good. So thank you, Lisa. That was a super useful tip and we appreciate it. Okay. The next thing that is just super fraught is navigating a mixed faith marriage and or family. Some of, you know, it's sometimes common for one person to have a faith crisis and immediately, let's say they're married, their spouse just comes immediately along for the ride. For me, I know it was a couple years simmer and burn before I really felt like I had enough confidence to really bring it to Margie. And so she knew I was reading some books or, you know, arguing with some people on the Internet. But, you know, there was a big delineation between my few years of slow burn. And in some cases it was probably 10 years of a slow burn. Right. But. But when I actually broke the news and then she had to go on her journey and some people have to go years in a mixed faith marriage or with kids who are still orthodox, or a lifetime with a partner or kids or parents who are orthodox now. Natasha, why don't you speak to this, since your expertise is in marriages and families?

48:17 Natasha Helfer Well, I do think it's a very big challenge, especially with the concepts that we've been talking about change. It has implications for, you know, marital intimacy, has implications for sexual intimacy. It has implications for parenting styles. It has implications, you know, in Mormonism, we have a lot of what I call daily markers, right? So are the kids going to go to seminary? Are we going to pay tithing? Are we going to wear garments? Is there going to be a coffee maker in the house? There's a lot of things to navigate that a lot of times we take for granted that we don't have to navigate, you know, when we're more aligned in these ways.

48:53 Margi Dehlin So.

48:54 Natasha Helfer So that can be a really challenging and difficult and feeling, again, like that sense of unity has been challenged. Or even the slippery slope type stuff like, well, I thought once we negotiated this, we'd be done, but now you're wanting to negotiate 500 other things. When will this ever be done? Will it ever be done? Are you changing in ways that I can no longer stay connected to? These are really hard questions, which, again, we'll talk about a lot more later in other podcasts. But there are, believe it or not, really great ways to navigate these types of differences. And the gift, I guess, that I would say, about a mixed faith family or marriage is that it really ups the intentionality of all those relationships in ways that you would not anticipate. So even though you're in this space where it can be really hard, I would just say encourage you to hang on because we have a lot of positive reframes coming up in other podcasts and how this can actually be an asset to your relationship, it can be an asset to your children. And not only that, it can be an asset to your home where other children, especially teenage children, will come into. And once you learn how to negotiate this well, your home can be a very, very welcoming place in ways that other homes where everybody believes the same things are not.

50:16 Margi Dehlin Yes, I love how you put that. I love how you put that, because that's something that comes to me, too, is that there are unique opportunities within a mixed faith kind of paradigm, whether that's a marriage or a family as well, where you actually have one opportunity is just to actually embody and emulate that unconditional love paradigm where people, that differentiation happens for kids, they watch it, they see it, and it adds to this sort of their expectation that they can explore and be safe doing so and expressing themselves and knowing love does not move off the table. Everyone's welcome at the table. So I love, love, love what you said there, Natasha.

51:06 John Dehlin Absolutely. You know, it is completely common for a mixed faith couple that's able to really stick with it to report higher levels of intimacy and higher levels of closeness, better communication and you would just never. When you're really in it and you're feeling worthless as the non believer and your believing spouse is feeling betrayed, like you totally did a bait and switch in the marriage and have now thrown away the entire foundation of the marriage, it can feel like the Titanic is sinking and you're in the bottom floor of the ship. But the truth is, if you can hold on and really lean into the process, you can find a stronger marriage than ever as a result. And you can get to the point where church doesn't matter. If someone decides to go to church, that's great. If someone decides not to go to church, that's great. If someone believes something or doesn't, that's great. And it becomes a non issue, a lot of those issues because ultimately you just want everyone in the family to become their best selves and you just, you want for everyone to whatever that means for them. You want that for them. And so the details start to evaporate once you take on the values of unconditional love and safety and support and autonomy and individuation or. Oh, I always use the wrong word, Natasha.

52:34 Margi Dehlin Differentiation.

52:34 John Dehlin Differentiation. I don't know why I've got that.

52:37 Natasha Helfer No, it's all right.

Episode 6

0:20 John Dehlin The next big issue that people face is parenting. And we kind of come by this honestly. Oh my gosh, I missed a couple. Thank you, Margie. Okay. In communicating, we also have lots of friends and community. And this is a big deal because in Mormonism we're not like, you know, let's just say Presbyterians or Lutherans or, you know, the types of churches where if you go once a month or once every three months or even once a year, where like your entire identity and community and friendship is wrapped around your congregation. I remember in Mormonism when we lived in Seattle, our friends or associates tended to be the Mormons in Seattle. And that was true in Dallas and that was true in Chicago. Like, Mormons tend to be very tight knit in their communities. And it tends to be the sense that your friendships, your relationships, your community are all connected to Mormonism. And so of course there will be casualties or there will likely be casualties in friendships and in community. If you have a faith crisis and you're open about it, and especially if you're in a faith crisis and open about it and don't handle it wisely, you will certainly risk burning bridges and jeopardizing relationships in terms of friendships and community. What do you think about that?

1:55 Margi Dehlin Well, I also think it's largely inevitable that you'll have shifts in your relationships with people, even if you communicate really, really in your mind, compassionately. And I just think it's that filtering, that's what I tend to call, tends to just occur. And a lot of that is through how we were talking about communication earlier. Some people, even with the best communication, your relationships are strained or you have people that don't accept what you're trying to say or can't observe a boundary or. And so there is, even with the best communication where you've done not necessarily anything wrong or misplayed anything, or there is a natural filtering when it comes to friends, community, and I would even say family members as well. And to expect that. And just for a little bit of the gift or the hope is that you, amidst those losses, will clearly be able to identify the deeper relationships and there will be new relationships that rise up in this empty space where you've lost people that meet you, where you are right now.

3:16 John Dehlin I love that point that holes will develop and you'll mourn them and you'll grieve them like a dear friendship or a community. But you can't just end with the hole. Every hole that develops from a faith crisis becomes an opportunity for an upgrade. And it is possible to upgrade your community, to upgrade your friendships. And not meaning better people, superior people, just people that are a better fit towards the place that you end up growing. That's all. And so you can mourn it and be sad about it, but then you can move on and celebrate the new relationships and the new communities that you find. And you may find them to be more compatible, more rich, more authentic than you did before. Anything you want to add, Natasha?

4:04 Natasha Helfer Yeah, and I would just encourage people to not fall into black and white thinking about this. Like I oftentimes hear, well, so I didn't have any real friends, you know, in Mormonism, because once I left, then those friends, time, you know, tended to disappear. And the reality is that especially in friendships, we tend to gear towards people who are similar to us. And once there are shifts and changes, some friendships can survive that and some don't as much. And that doesn't have to mean that it was that all those times that you shared with that person that were beneficial and good and helpful, that somehow they didn't count or that they didn't matter, that they weren't real. So just, I would just caution people from having black and white thinking about that.

4:47 John Dehlin Love it. There's a, There was a point that I had back on the marriage conversation that I skipped that Margie wanted to make sure I mentioned because it was important in our relationship. So if you guys will forgive me, we're going to rewind back to the marriage portion and talk about it really briefly. Is that okay? One of the things you have to realize, there's this, there's this really famous marriage and family and I think sex therapist named Esther Perel. Are you a fan of Esther Perel, Natasha?

5:20 Natasha Helfer I love Esther Perel.

5:21 John Dehlin Yeah.

5:21 Margi Dehlin Yes.

5:23 John Dehlin I have a quote in my mind that she's said, which is that everybody or most people who get married will get married at least three times in their lives. It'll either be to the same partner or to a different partner. And what she's implying there is that once you get married on a certain foundation and as certain individuals, but then you fast forward seven years, each of you grows in new ways and your values change. You'll likely at some point or the kids start coming or whatever it is, or the kids leave whenever the big milestones are, at some point you're going to hit this crisis in the relationship where you feel like the marriage is dead. And the point she's making is, okay, maybe the marriage is dead, maybe the foundation you built it upon or many of the major pillars upon which you based your marriage have crumbled. Maybe the joy and even the sexual fulfillment or the intimacy or the fun has gone out of the marriage. But that doesn't mean that your marriage, your relationship is over. What she recommends is a new marriage. Which means I, John, come to my marriage with Margie in 2012, a broken and a different person. Margie comes to the marriage in 2012, a different person. Never broken and

6:56 Margi Dehlin definitely broken.

6:57 John Dehlin Oh, sorry. Broken open by me. And then. I'm kidding. I'm just trying, I'm trying to be self effaced again.

7:04 Margi Dehlin I think it's important to model though that these things happen, you know, by being alive.

7:09 John Dehlin Yeah.

7:10 Margi Dehlin By being a human being. Totally.

7:11 John Dehlin I'm just. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Okay. And then many of the foundations of our marriage by 2012 had crumbled and we looked at divorce, we looked at separation. But then what we did is we decided that we were both in for another round. And so here we are, six years after almost a catastrophic failure, happier than we've ever been when before we were pretty sure it was over. And that is because we, we entered into a new marriage. Is that what you wanted me to say, sweetie? Did I cover it well?

7:52 Margi Dehlin I do feel like the idea of creating and updating our relationships with people is a very important part of being conscious in our lives. And I think there are elements that are really tough. Forgiveness can be a lot of work, I think, but there are also really exciting parts of that creativity and a coming together as the people you are now, as opposed to 10 years ago or 15 years ago. And by the way, I don't. I'm curious what you think about this, Natasha. I do believe this is a religious. This can happen in religious transition. I also feel like this is part of life. It happens to marriages outside religion all the time. I mean, think about the type of marriage you need with young children as opposed to empty nest, right. In the marriage where you're dealing with like your kids leaving home, well, there your needs look really different. Or with a spouse that's sick and you're caretaking different things. We're asked throughout life to renegotiate all the time, actually. And for a marriage where you are really ask, your expectations are that you're wanting to share a life together, you can expect that you're probably gonna have to burn down. That's what we've done. We've definitely had to burn down our marriage a couple times and just say, you know what, not working, we're starting over. And we're gonna try this. Thoughts? What are your thoughts, Natasha?

9:30 Natasha Helfer Well, you start off with the work of Esther Perel. And Esther Perel is mainly talking about this from the construct of infidelity. So it's an interesting way to reframe a big moment in a lot of people's lives when they have to face something like infidelity. Not that I want to compare infidelity to faith transition, but I will compare it in the sense that it's a big moment. Right. For a lot of people, it's a big moment where you have to kind of like it's not. I mean, we always hear that you have to constantly work on your marriage. And that's true regardless of whether you're going through big moments or not. Right. That's just kind of day in and day out. But I think what Esther Perel is talking about is that given developmental life cycle and the fact that we're all living into our 80s and 90s these days, more often than not. So you're going to spend, you know, potentially, if you married your partner in your 20s, you're going to spend 60 years with this partner. The chances of betrayals, infidelities, shifts, major shifts like a faith transition just statistically go up. And so you, you know, I really do find that useful that I think when oftentimes in the Mormon narrative, you know, you have this script where you get married in the temple, you get married forever and eternity and all is well and everything will kind of just stay as is. And sure you'll face problems, but they'll kind of come from the outside in. And you don't realize that a big quote unquote problem that you're facing is that you're growing up with this person, you're adulting with this person, you're developing into who you're going to be as a 40 year old, as a 50 year old, as a 60 year old, and in every one of those things, you're having to rework your marriage as well. So I would just second pretty much everything both of you have said.

11:07 John Dehlin Love it. Mickey, Glad you wrote in Mickey. Mickey writes, we change. It would be weird if we didn't expect our partners and marriage wouldn't change as well. Yeah. So she's basically saying, I change. Wouldn't it be weird if I expected you not to change? And then wouldn't it be weird if that didn't affect their marriage? Thank you, Mickey, for chiming in and sharing that perspective. And thank you, Margie, for having me go back and Address that point I missed. That was worth covering. Good stuff. Okay. Another area of complexity in communication, before we move on to some final points, is communicating with your bishop and your bishopric members and your ward and your stake president and your stake presidency members and just members in your congregation. So many of us were in the bishopric or Lee Saudi presidency or were respected members of the ward. And wards are small, so people know each other. And by the way, there's that pesky tithing settlement at the end of the year and those temple recommends expire, and the bishop, Bishop Brickstone. I was like that. And then there's children going on and off of missions and children marrying in and out of the temple and home teachers, or what do we call them now, ministering people. What do we call them, Natasha?

12:35 Natasha Helfer Ministers.

12:36 John Dehlin Ministers. Yeah. We've got all these different ways that we're interacting with our ward members and leaders. And by the way, those leaders can have a lot of power over us. They can have the power to keep us from our own child's wedding. They can have the power to gossip about us to other ward members, and that can impact our livelihood or our jobs or our reputations. They can also offer themselves as support and helpful. But it's sometimes complicated. There are delicate things like how do I get out of a calling I may not feel good about anymore? How do I handle tithing settlement or temple recommend issue? Can I get a temple recommend? If I'm not necessarily orthodox like I used to be, do I have to just resign from the church? Can I just go when I want? And then if I do, like, let's say Margie goes to church, but I don't. How was that for you, sweetie? What was one of the complexities of when you were attending church and I wasn't? That kind of got on your nerves?

13:44 Margi Dehlin Yeah. I think for those attending, you feel like you're put in a position where you're answering for your spouse who's not there, why they're not there.

13:52 John Dehlin And so what was that like?

13:53 Margi Dehlin Trying to learn? It was very valuable, but I had to actually learn. I almost scripted it out depending on who would ask me what level of trust I had, what. What I would say and how I would say it.

14:08 John Dehlin Yeah, that's really good. We'll talk about that. How to measure your communication with someone based on the safetyness for you and the safetyness for them and what their

14:19 Margi Dehlin intentions were really in asking. Do they really.

14:21 John Dehlin Yeah, yeah. But all that can be really fraught. And I'm going to just give you one piece of advice when dealing with. I'm going to give you two pieces of advice when dealing with warden stake members, and I'm going to leave it at that and then let Natasha jump in. Less is more. Okay. And don't give away your power because giving them being vulnerable and candid. I just listened to a Brene Brown episode the other day, and we all associate vulnerability these days in 2018 with Brene Brown. She says we misunderstand her if we think that her messages that we all need to be vulnerable at all times

15:06 Margi Dehlin with all people, just go out and be vulnerable people.

15:10 John Dehlin That's basically called masochism, right? Natasha, you're familiar with that word, right?

15:16 Natasha Helfer Yes, I am. No, and I think that this is an important piece, which again, we'll talk about more later, is boundaries. In Mormon narrative scripts, we grew up in a relationship with ecclesiastical authorities where we're asked questions and we're supposed to answer questions. So that's kind of the habit that we're in. And we forget the difference between privacy and honesty. And these are all things that we can talk about more at length in the future. But I think for this particular episode, what we're saying is that this is a very normal thing to have be frustrating and it can be very harmful. It can be very hurtful. It can be. I mean, a lot of times these people who are serving these positions are your friends or prior friends or even family members. And so it gets even more wrought with discomfort and issues when you feel betrayed by somebody who you felt was supposed to minister to you or help you and now is maybe disciplining you or is causing you, in your mind, a lot of harm. So it's just very. And it is very roulettish like we talk about. So in some wards, certain ecclesiastical leaders or auxiliary leaders will respond in certain ways. And in other words, they respond in different ways. And so it's just. It's kind of all over the map.

16:36 John Dehlin I'm a little traumatized by this because after I started the podcast and we were a public. Public figures a little bit. The. The bishop and stake president actually assigned some of my former home teachers to investigate me and to gather information about me. Not to my knowledge, that was never disclosed. And of course, that's a more extreme example. But I would just say less is more and be careful what you tell people. And we're going to leave it at that. But that can be complicated, so be gentle. All right.

17:11 Natasha Helfer Can we go back really quickly to the parenting piece? We never read that.

17:15 John Dehlin That was super important.

17:18 Natasha Helfer Well, because I think that this. I mean, we kind of briefly mentioned it in the mixed parenting you or as a mixed parents or mixed faith marriage. But I do think that. Well, first of all, some people do divorce and still have to co parent. And whether or not you feel like you're aligned with your partner, seeing your children either hurt by or even helped by the church can be really fraught with a lot of personal emotion. Right. So if you feel like your child is going and listening to messages that you feel is harmful or will be quote, unquote, you know, like somebody else mentioned brainwashed. You know, we have that some of those feelings, like they're just going to indoctrinate my kids or they're going to. Sometimes what people who are leaving feel is that they're going to kind of undermine my parental authority. Right. So I'm going to be the kind of like inactive, you know, parent that in all these stories comes up as we're going to feel sorry for them and it's too bad.

18:17 John Dehlin And the cautionary tale, right.

18:19 Natasha Helfer Yeah. I'm now the cautionary tale that my own children are going to look down on me because of my ideas about spirituality and things like that. So this can be very, very painful for those. Transitioning can also, of course, be very challenging and scary to the believing spouse who feels like there's usually a lot of structure and a lot of support for parenting within the church community and a lot of values and ideas that especially as you're parenting teenagers and things of that nature that can feel very safe and secure. So this is kind of all over the map. And I know that personally, again, this has been very. Because I've had kind of kids on both sides. I've had a bisexual child who was very, very harmed by LGBTQ rhetoric in the church. And then I have a child who loves going to church and who we support going to church. And at the same time, I'm also a little worried that I don't quite meet the standards. Right. Of the other moms who maybe he sees as more, you know, kind of got. Got their Mormon going on a little bit better than me, you know, so. So it's. I've been on both sides of that as the transitioner. And it's very bittersweet and extremely painful because your mama bear comes out, your mama dragon comes out, you know, your papa bear, and it just cuts at the core of what you're kind of wired to do, which is to protect your children.

19:44 John Dehlin I love it.

19:46 Margi Dehlin Yeah, I would say, too just transitioning in general. I know from. With my coaching clients, I would say over half of all of my coaching clients, one of the major issues is kind of how do I parent now that I'm transitioning, and how it affects, you know, how they view things like control or, you know, really desiring to be safe for their children and even how they've, you know, different kind of structures or beliefs that they've bought into around their own children, whether they're kind of depraved versus, you know, highly on their own, you know, worthy and whole and desiring to do good. There's a lot here in the parenting paradigm and very, very natural shifts that happen that can feel quite destabilizing when you're already feeling like so many other things are changing and being unearthed at the same time.

20:55 John Dehlin Yeah. And I'll just add, we are. Thank you, Margie and Natasha. And we're so conditioned, unfortunately, in Mormonism. And I don't think anybody means it intentionally, but I just remember growing up thinking, I feel so sorry for everyone not raised in the church. They must live sad, pathetic, immoral, drab, wretched lives. They don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost. They don't have a prophet to lead them. They don't have all of God's scripture. How can anyone who isn't raised Mormon not be a prostitute and a drug dealer? And maybe it wasn't that severe, but it was a little bit short of that. And that conditioning leaves you feeling like you couldn't possibly raise a healthy, happy kid to avoid teenage pregnancy, to avoid risky drug use, to avoid. To just survive into adulthood without orthodox Mormonism. And so we come by that fear and conditioning honestly, and it's a real concern. And so I just want to validate that and say that that's something that. That's some conditioning that you have to work through. And we will be covering that in a future episode or a future series. How to raise healthy, happy kids as either progressive, unorthodox Mormons or as ex Mormons. Either one. There's great things in store, but it can be terrifying as a parent also, I'll just say, like, I like to liken orthodox Mormonism to public schools. In public school, you just literally drive up, drop off your kids, or if they drive themselves, even better. And they're educated, you know, supposedly, and oftentimes they get a decent, if not an excellent education. Sometimes they get a bad one. But the benefit is you didn't have to worry about it. You didn't have to pull out Your calculator, your times tables. You didn't have to remember your equations from linear algebra. You didn't have to remember how to conjugate verbs in English or what the, you know, you know what the Newton's first and second law of thermodynamics are. You just drop your kids off at school and they're raised or they're educated and religion can provide that. Should a kid have sex? Law of chastity, should a kid look at porn? Law of chastity, should a kid drink or do drugs? Word of wisdom, you know, how should a kid spend their weeknights at church activities? And the church just raises your kid for you. And so it can be very disorienting as a parent to lose that and then to say, oh my gosh, now my kids are going to be drug dealing, prostitutes. You know, it's natural to have those fears. And we're here to tell you good can come from this. But it's scary at the time.

23:57 Natasha Helfer And not that we want to shame sex workers by any means, right?

24:02 John Dehlin Yes, yes. Not to shame sex workers. Tell us more about that. Natasha.

24:10 Natasha Helfer That's a whole other podcast.

24:12 John Dehlin Okay, that's another. Another podcast. Not an episode, that's another podcast. All right. Okay. We've covered a lot of the big doozies, but there are some one offs that we're going to try and cover. We've got about 11 minutes left, and we're going to try and cover each of these in about a minute. And so what we'll do is we'll do a round robin where we're not going to each feel like we have to all speak on each of these topics, but we're going to, we'll go around the robin and I'll direct and each one is going to kind of address a topic. So the first one is dealing with betrayal and anger. Natasha, tell us in one minute what you're going to experience in terms of anger.

24:55 Natasha Helfer Yeah, so I think I kind of covered this a little bit with the Nephi complex, but it is really an upsetting, horrible feeling to feel like you've been betrayed either by information or by people. And anger is a very natural next feeling, which of course we always talk about anger being kind of like a secondary emotion because there's usually something underneath it like pain or sadness. So it's important to tap into that. At the same time, I just want to normalize that. Anger can be a very appropriate part of the grief cycle. We will talk about that at length and how to manage it. And make sure anger doesn't become paralyzing. At the same time. If you are going through a transition or you are connected with somebody who's going through a transition, don't be surprised that there's some anger. And anger in of itself doesn't always have to be a bad thing. It can be a motivator. It can be kind of a clue or inner. Right. As far as something is really off here.

25:56 John Dehlin Yeah, anger can be freaking awesome. You just don't want to get stuck in it. You want to use it to propel, to go deeper. Yeah, right. Talk all about that. But that's a big one. The next thing I want to do is spirituality. And I'm going to actually read a comment from Victoria. Victoria is one of our loyal, faithful listeners. Hi Victoria. You're awesome. I am pretty sure Victoria is in the uk, so we are extra honored that you are joining us from the uk, Victoria. Victoria writes, the hardest thing for me was losing the idea of Jesus. I saw him as a parent figure and a best friend. He was my counselor when I needed someone to talk to. I felt he loved me and understood me in a way that others couldn't. Throughout my life, I always saw my successes, abilities and wisdom was all because of God. I felt very grateful to God, but never really saw my own character. When I first started my faith crisis, I began to realize that this is a necessary part of my life and development. I now see that even if there is a God, it is me that has achieved all I have in my life. I may or may not have been guided, but I'm the one who makes the decisions and I'm the one that chooses to grow and help others. I'm now becoming more empowered and I'm starting to appreciate myself in a way I couldn't before my faith crisis. And I'm just going to say, Victoria, amen. When you know, spirituality is so huge. It's a belief in theology, it's a belief in God, a belief in an atonement, in a savior, in an afterlife. It's the plan of salvation, it's eternal families, it's the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's all these safety and obedience to the authority of prophets and to scripture. And when you lose all that, you can feel hollow and naked and dark for sometimes a long time. And it can feel like all the light has gone out of your life. Because the church can provide incredible opportunities for spiritual development. As much as you hate the church, I hope you will concede that many people find spiritual fulfillment in the church. For those of you who are angry at the church, and for those of you who are still orthodox, you get what I'm saying? The church meets those needs. So when you lose your orthodox faith, you can feel dark and scared for a time. And all we want to say is, like, Victoria, there's some light and sometimes some really bright light at the end of that tunnel. Spiritually, spiritually. There are people that go through a faith crisis and feel more spiritual at the end of the journey, not less, or they feel spiritual for the first time after a faith crisis. And some stay in the church and some leave. But you will experience that, and it's an important one. Natasha, can you talk to us about identity?

28:47 Natasha Helfer Well, so again, when I look at my own work, this has been a big one. I mean, and a lot of what you just mentioned from this commenter is just a big part of our identity. We. We are Mormon. We have certain narratives, we have certain meanings about life that we come at through all of that. And so when you go through a transition, it just really affects every aspect of yourself. And then that's even complicated, I think, in Mormonism as a woman or as an LGBT member or even as a man, when you have your identity be so gendered or be so tied to certain aspects of your sexuality or so tied to certain aspects of your parenting, like if you're a mother or a father, what roles you're supposed to play? And so all of a sudden, a faith transition kind of shifts a lot of that, and you have to kind of re figure your identity on so many different levels. You know, what does it mean to be a mother? What does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be heterosexual or have a different type of sexual orientation? What does it mean to be married? What does it mean, you know, all these things that kind of come into my identity. So I think that that can be very disconcerting, it can be disorienting, it can be scary. You can feel left without an anchor going out to sea. And so that's a very normal feeling.

30:08 John Dehlin Margie went to get our Jimmy John's order that we timed for one o'. Clock. So Jimmy John's came early. So I'll excuse Margie for a second. And I want to give a shout out to Kimberly. Kimberly karaoking with you and Margie last Saturday was one of the highlights of our 2018. So love and blessings to you, Kimberly, who's a faithful listener to many podcasts, including this one. It's Kimberly.

30:35 Natasha Helfer Oh, hello.

30:36 John Dehlin Kimberly and she says bows to Victoria. So Victoria, Kimberly is sending you props and we love you Kimberly as well. Check out my interview with Kimberly Anderson on Mormon Stories podcast. It's definitely a great interview. Jaina writes. Hugs. Natasha Alford Parker Ugh, I missed this. I'll be restarting this whole episode. Hey Jayna, we always love you and we're glad. We hope you do re listen if you find the need. Courtney writes very hard. I think that she's writing about spirituality. Courtney writes, I think there are ways to keep Jesus and even when you lose the restoration. And she's referring listeners to Rob Bell, Richard Rohr and others who have great nuanced perspective. We love you Courtney. Thanks for the shout outs. Say hello to Danny and Logan. And I always forget your other child's name. Please forgive me. One of these days I'm going to remember that name. Lisa writes, identity can be lost in religion. There is such a high expectation of living and you become lost. Great, great comments from all our listeners. We really appreciate it and thank you Natasha for talking about identity. Identity is huge and it's hard to think of a more interwoven, tight knit identity than Mormonism. Other than like Orthodox Judaism, Orthodox Islam, Scientology. We are up there in the top five to ten most intense identities. So it's going to be a loss. Margie, why don't you speak to meaning and purpose really quick?

32:13 Margi Dehlin Okay. So with meaning and purpose, I think it's natural amidst transition to also feel like you really have to renegotiate your sense of meaning in life and also your purpose in the world. And it's very common to have sort of things feel like they crumble. They your tower of sorts crumbles and you're kind of looking around. And so it, and all I would say is this is entirely normal and it takes some time to rebuild this sense of how you feel meaning in your own life. And it can look really, really different from person to person. I would say one thing just as like a little bit of a teaser that can often be really helpful are values. Something initially that's very stabilizing, that allows people to kind of connect with themselves as they've lost sort of that listening to a prophet or getting, you know, their meaning and purpose from an external source is this idea of just coming back to values. Things that they resonate with, things that bring them joy, things that so expect this. Expect to have sort of a grappling or a reckoning with your purpose in life and how you find meaning, how you move through the world and what feels good to you.

33:38 John Dehlin Love it. Back on the topic of identity, Judy writes, hey Judy. I think Judy's in Louisiana. Shout out to Judy. She writes, one of my first crises was who am I? That's a good one. Natasha, why don't you talk about morality and even sexuality in the terms of the difficult aspects of a faith crisis?

34:03 Natasha Helfer Well, I think you spoke to this well when you were talking about, even with the parenting, you know, that we feel like morality comes from religion oftentimes. And although religion talks about morality, it's not the owner of morality. And so I think that, you know, as, and oftentimes we think of morality as a checkbox list, like do this, don't do that. I've heard you talk about this, John. You know, like when you think about family values, oftentimes, especially in our current cultural climate here in the United States, it's just, you know, don't have an abortion, don't have premarital sex, do this, don't do that, do you know, it's like a do and don't list. Instead of really looking at our morals and our ethics and you know, when I talk about sexuality, I talk about the six principles of sexual health which shouldn't matter what religion or non religion you're in, they should kind of apply because they're pretty principles that are that kind of, they go beyond any one religion. And the, you know, when you look at the Golden Rule, for example, that's something that you can find in every religion and non religion, you know, people kind of just that they see that as a value. And so I think it's important. Well, we'll talk about why, what we can do about it. But I think it's important to recognize that if you're going through a faith transition or if you're supporting someone in faith transition, morality comes up as a big scary bucket because does this mean that you're going that I'm going to start acting in immoral ways? Does this mean that my partner or my child is going to start acting in immoral ways? How do we define morality? What is morality? Right. And oftentimes too, if this is happening at a time when kind of midlife, you know, the late 30s to I would say mid-50s, that's a developmental stage where we're kind of supposed to be reworking a lot of things in our life anyway. So if you have like what I call the double doozy of a life transition and a religious transition, then all of a sudden we can start kind of reworking Our morality. And we might be doing things or exploring things that can be. Can be scary to either individuals or family members from that perspective. So I think it's one of those things that we'll address more in the future. But it's definitely something that comes up as scary and not sure how to negotiate when people think, first start this journey.

36:23 John Dehlin Love it. KJC writes, I love that religion is not the owner of morality. And then he writes, yes. And Jennifer, our friend Jennifer, you know, Jennifer White, she writes, it can be scary to take responsibility over your life and own your decisions. It can be healthier. But for some people, it is less scary to do what the bishop said than to pay attention to yourself. And I think that's really true. I'll never forget an elders quorum lesson where I'm trying to teach this edgy lesson and a dude raises his hand in the back and says, I just want someone to tell me what to do. Like, my life is so complex and so difficult. I don't need any of this liberal, progressive, intellectual mumbo jumbo. I literally just want someone to tell me what to do. And that's real for some people. I'm not making fun of that guy. That's what would. That was his reality.

37:23 Natasha Helfer Yeah.

37:24 John Dehlin And it can be scary.

37:26 Natasha Helfer And that's why this offers structure to so many people. And to have morality conceptualized within a religious framework for a lot of people, that is very helpful. But that doesn't mean that there isn't morality outside of that structure either.

37:40 John Dehlin Absolutely. Judy, joined comments. Again, I referred my morality to what the church taught. Starting to make decisions was a challenge at first, but it got easier. Thank you, Judy. And then Tim adds, the most difficult aspect for me is the feeling of overwhelming guilt when the rest of my family is orthodox or tbm, true believing Mormon and we have a missionary out in the field. The guilt comes from others questioning my decision to. To not be a part of the church. Tim, that's a great point. Guilt. We talked a little bit earlier about feeling like a disappointment to family and friends. Thank you for sharing and being vulnerable, Tim. We really appreciate that. All right, I'll talk about death and afterlife. I'd say one of the core kernels of the existence of religion is the fact that it has evolved to help us deal with the fact that we all die. I imagine cavemen or, you know, CRO Magnon man or, you know, whatever primitive ancestors 20,000 years ago staring at their dead child, staring at their dead partner, staring at members of their dead tribe, wondering what Happens when we die. I love these people. Now they're gone. Is this the end? Will I ever see them again? Why are we all here if we just die anyway? What's the purpose? One of the main things religion offers is answers to those questions about death and mortality and dying in the afterlife. And not only is it about solving the problem of death, but it's about making death, taking away the sting of death by making death seem awesome by angels and rewards, and even becoming a God someday. Those are all, you know, rewards that we're anticipating as Mormons, if we believe in God in an afterlife. And going through a faith crisis just immediately strikes at the heart of that, which means that anyone you're talking to, and the older that they get, probably the more sensitive they're going to be to this issue you're dealing with. And you're attacking potentially their worldview as it relates to death in the afterlife. And it can cause panic and fear comparable to the panic you would feel if a lion's running after you in the savannah. You can feel that sort of panic and fear when somebody challenges your beliefs about the afterlife, because it can mean your hopes of seeing grandma or your child, your child who passed away again, are all interwoven there. And so when you lose your faith or when you talk about your loss of faith with others, people can immediately go to that place, and it can be very dark and scary. Now, there's plenty of ways to reconcile that. We're gonna show our little leg and give you a teaser and say, we're not gonna tell you what those are, but we will be doing an episode on death in the afterlife, if not multiple, so stay tuned. But that can be terrifying. Kip, you wanna read Kimberly's comment?

40:49 Margi Dehlin Oh, sure. Morality within the framework of punishment from God is a transactional morality. Morality without fear of punishment from God is untied to a transaction and is instead a gift. Love it so beautifully.

41:03 John Dehlin That's Kimberly weighing in on morality with and without God. Were you going to say something about death?

41:11 Margi Dehlin I was going to say something about death. I was going to say, I hope you don't mind if I add just a component to this. That's difficult is there's the death of, you know, humans are people we love. There's us kind of, I think, renegotiating or looking our at our own mortality. And then there's also just loss and grief in this process. And that's not something we've. We have mentioned yet. But there is, like, the death of, you know, what you Thought your life would look like, what your family would be, what your future was going to be. There can be kind of a death of a dream, if you will. And so these. This kind of grief and loss is something that is a key part of transition and learning to grieve, learning how you grieve, people grieve, you know, in very, very different ways. And it's a journey unto itself. Learning what you need, learning, you know, how you express sorrow and what really piecing together, if you will, a framework that allows you to live in a way that is fully present and really loving those around you. Yeah, it's a key part of the transition process, don't you think?

42:29 John Dehlin Absolutely. Yeah. It's a million cuts of grieving. You know, a faith crisis is the death of. Of a thousand beliefs or perspectives or relationships or whatever. Natasha, I know we got to get you out of here, so is there something you want to add before we kind of wrap up?

42:51 Natasha Helfer No, I was just going to say just to. That we're not implying. And I don't think you meant to imply this. I'm just wanting to be careful that we're not implying that everybody who goes through a faith crisis loses their belief in an afterlife or anything like that. So it's just.

43:05 Margi Dehlin But that.

43:05 Natasha Helfer I think what you're saying is that it just challenges that belief and it's something that people have to relook at and then decide how they're going to come out on the other end of their transitions.

43:14 John Dehlin So, yeah, I like to. You know, the data that we've researched shows show that about a little over half of, you know, Mormons who go through a faith crisis end up atheist or agnostic, but what that means is about another half don't, and they still believe in God and Jesus or whatever. So that's. Or even Mormonism, you know. So that's a really good point you make. Natasha, really quick. Margie, you had a point on chaos and instability. Did you already make it or did you want to talk about that last?

43:44 Margi Dehlin I can do it really quickly. Okay. It's just the idea that if you take everything that we've listed so far, they're kind of journeys unto themselves. Right. Where you begin in one place and you're going to journey through, and you're likely going to end up in the present moment in a very different place that's going to more fully reflect you. But amidst this, the challenges is that there can be a loss of a structure of sorts where you are trying to recreate one or remake One or renovate one or, you know, different structures for each of these components. And so that can be a very challenging thing. It can feel chaotic. It can feel overwhelming. You can feel unprepared to do the work, especially because it can feel like you have to have it all sorted out and you're kind of doing it all at the same time. So you can kind of expect that that's a very normal thing to feel as part of your process. And that's why we have a whole kind of space for self care and for connecting with yourself. And so just know that that chaos and instability is part of the process as well.

45:03 Natasha Helfer All right, Ambiguity is where we're going to be playing. And it's hard. Like we mentioned, change is hard, so.

45:11 Margi Dehlin That's right.

45:11 John Dehlin Yeah. Dwelling in the land of ambiguity. All right, Natasha, we want to give you the last word for today before we kind of sign off. We've had some great comments from our participants, from our listeners, but, Natasha, we know you got to run, so.

45:28 Natasha Helfer Yeah, I've got to run, but I thought I would give offer my homework assignment that I came up with. Yeah.

45:34 John Dehlin So let's jump to the homework section

45:37 Natasha Helfer and then you can continue after that. If you want to read some more comments or whatever you want to do, feel free to continue without me. But I got a kiddo and his sister already at the doctor's appointment. Okay. So we've talked about trying to come up with homework assignments that address four different areas in your life. And not that we always come up with one that will address all four, but this idea that you're going to try to address your physical body, you're going to try to address your emotional kind of life, your spirituality, and socially. So I thought, as I thought through this process what I could come up with. And this is what I came up with with. So take it or leave it. So I thought that you could start off by journaling, just kind of, you know, as you've listened to us, what were the things that resonated with you? What are the things that you feel have been difficult for you as you've gone through a Mormon faith crisis or supported someone in a faith crisis. And then so just kind of come up with your list of kind of your wounds and your areas of sadness. And then I would say I would like for you to. This is where you invoke your body. So that was kind of an emotional thing. This is invoke your body. And I would like for you to figure out a way to verbalize this so you're using your mouth. So whether you say a prayer or whether you state a self reflection or whether you talk to the universe or whatever, but you're verbally sharing what you came up with to either yourself or to God or to whoever you want to share it to. And then I would like for you to have some type of ritual where you're, where. So before you've done that, I guess light a candle or something. So then at the end of that prayer, meditation or self reflection, you blow out the candles. It's kind of like a beginning and an end to that ritual. And then so that's physical, emotional, spiritual. Oh, physical, emotional, sorry. The spiritual part of this was to come up with or find a mantra that speaks to journeys or new territories or kind of something along those lines so that you can see this is kind of a difficult aspect as the starting of a new journey. So that can speak to your spirituality. And the social part was to maybe if you have somebody that you feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable with and remember vulnerability back to Bernays Brown point means safety on the other end at some level, there has to be some level of safety that you could potentially share that list with somebody you care about with the disclaimer that they're just to listen, they're not to fix anything about what you're presenting, that you're just offering a gift of some of the things that you're currently struggling with without any expectation or even desire for them to say, oh well, let me help you with that. Or here's an idea that could help with that. It's just this is what I'm dealing with and the person who's receiving can go. Thank you for sharing that list with me. That's it. So those were my thoughts. Take it or leave them. Some of these are helpful, some of these maybe aren't and I'll leave you to kind of close up. Does that sound good?

48:41 John Dehlin We love you, Natasha. Thanks for sharing the wisdom with us.

48:45 Natasha Helfer I love you guys too. And I love all the commenters and all the people who show up. So some of you I know personally and it's so nice to see you on there and those of you who I don't, I would hope we can, our paths can cross sometime or our paths are crossing in this way. So that's beautiful.

48:59 John Dehlin Check out Natasha Parker.org if you need any of her wisdom on a one on one basis.

49:05 Natasha Helfer Thank you. All right, we'll see you all next next time. Take care.

49:11 John Dehlin All right, well we've got a few comments that I want to read because the listeners are giving us great comments today. Great as usual. Lisa writes, I think of it. I think of it as this is my chance to learn and grow and build myself into a kind, nice, loving individual and to do the best I can. So. So if there is an afterlife, at least I know I gave my best self on this journey I've been on. That's Lisa addressing shifting perspectives on death in the afterlife.

49:41 Margi Dehlin Yeah, I love that Lisa.

49:42 John Dehlin Victoria writes, this is so true. Margie Delyn thank you. So she just thinks you're wise.

49:48 Margi Dehlin Oh that's lovely.

49:50 John Dehlin I agree. JC writes, mormons even take control of our life before. Oh yeah, we didn't mention the pre existence right. JC writes, I had to tell my stepmom stop telling me we chose this life together after my parents divorced that we must have been okay to say yes. She was horribly offended but stop including me in this afterlife. But pre life so much too. Yeah. Jc, you're making a good point that Mormonism, not only that's part of the meaning and purpose that Mormonism can give us, it not only tells us who we are and where we're going, it tries to tell us where we came from. And for some that's beautiful, but for others that can shift and become not so kind and useful. And JC is reminding us of that. Kathy writes, I am so surprised at how many levels there are to process while going through a faith crisis.

50:42 Margi Dehlin Yes, yes. And I think, you know, as we've we've kind of sectioned these out into different points, but they also blend like they affect each other. So as you're going, so true.

50:54 John Dehlin And then Casey gives a shout out to all of us, says he loves the podcast and says Natasha is amazing. Casey, you missed it. We actually gave a shout out to you for becoming a monthly donor subscriber at the beginning of this podcast. So go back and listen. You'll hear the shout out. But that's a shout out. If any of you have already chosen to sort of go to mormonfaithcrisis.com donate. We just want to thank you for that. We really do. And if you have already, chances are we gave you a shout out at the beginning of the episode. You need to go back and listen to it. Kimberly will always read Kimberly's comments. She writes. Yes, Lisa's comment is beautiful. I think it can be helpful to think about not replacing morality, but instead to discover and pursue our own personal noble purpose. And and we will find that we often arrive at something higher than our previous state of morality sounds like what you're saying, Kimberly, is don't worry about the do's and don'ts and shoulds and shouldn'ts. Go out and lead this fulfilling, meaningful, purposeful life and your behavior will orient towards helping you achieve those objectives. And maybe you'll find yourself to be healthier and happier without even thinking about the term morality.

52:13 Margi Dehlin Yeah. And I love that because it points to the gift, which is what we always like coming back to you. There are these hard things, these losses, these renegotiations that we have in process. But there are potential gifts that come from those times. And then you oftentimes arrive at something that feels like you. It actually reflects you. And you have this sense of who you are at the end that you may not have had at the beginning.

52:40 John Dehlin Kimberly writes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I think she approves of my interpretation of her wise comment. All right, listeners, we are concluding another episode or two of the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. Thank you for joining us. It's been amazing. And there are some things you can do to help us if you want. No pressure. We'd love it. If you would like our Facebook page that you're on right now, we would love you to share this with anyone who you think might be able to benefit from it. We love your comments. We love you to email us. And if you need any individual support, you can reach Margie at beautyinthenow.org Beautyinthenow.org is Margie's coaching practice. I am at johndelin.com, j O-H N-E-H-L-I-N.com Natasha'satashaparker.org and of course, if you want to attend one of our upcoming events, and I should stress this, in the next week or two, we'll be announcing our initial calendar for workshops and retreats in 2019. Look for that at mormonfaithcrisis.org events along with the intensive couples retreat we're planning with Natasha in early next year in Salt Lake. And Natasha's mixed faith couples workshop she's doing just in a week or two. So check all that out at mormonfaithcrisis.com events and Casey says check your email. I sent you both an email with a journal entry after episode one. Thank you, Casey. We will check that out and we may even share a little bit of that next time with. With your permission. All right, everyone, we sure love you. Go make a great, beautiful life. Turn this lemon of a faith crisis into lemonade. In or out of Mormonism, we love you. Thanks for your support. Tune in again next week or on itunes or on YouTube for another episode of the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. Take care, everybody. We'll see you guys again very soon.