10 Things You Should Know About Healthy Sex – Laci Green

0:06 John Dehlin Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It's October 31st, Halloween 2019. I hope you all have a fun and safe Halloween today. We are super excited to have back on Mormon Stories. Lacey Green. Lacey is an author, she's a podcaster, she is a YouTuber, and she's kind of a, I'd say social media expert. And her area of expertise for a long time has been sex, sexuality, sex, positivity, etc. We were super thrilled to have her recently on Mormon Stories podcast to tell her epic story. It's heartwarming, it's thoughtful, it's heartbreaking, but it's also triumphant and inspiring. So make sure and check that out. After we got done with that, with that episode, I realized we never actually talked about sexuality in any way. Really, it was just her story. And that's fine because her story stands on its own, but I thought it was a missed opportunity because she's an expert. And so I asked her if she'd come back. And we have some good news. By the way, you guys know about Thrive, The Thrive Conference, November 17th. Today we're going to cross the threshold of 1,000 registrants. So we'll have over a thousand people there, which is three times the amount we've ever had at one of our events. The last event we had that was large was the June Thrive event, which is about 270 people. Anyway, we're super excited for Thrive. Lacey has said she's willing to come speak. So if you want to meet Lacy yourself, along with Hans Mattson, Jeremy Runnels, Natasha Helfer, Parker, Amber Skora, Wayne Sermon of Imagine Dragons, and many, many more cool speakers. Go to thrivebeyondmormonism.com, register. It's only 15 bucks a person. We plan on losing all sorts of money at this event. We price it at $15 because we want to get as many people there as possible and we have underwriters who are willing to pay the overages. So we're doing this only to promote healing, growth and community beyond Mormonism. It's going to be an all positive event. It's no sniping or negativity towards the church. It's about looking forward and doing cool things. So come join me and Lacey and a bunch of other cool people and a thousand other post Mormons at the largest post Mormon event ever dedicated to healing and growth. So check us out again November 17th. ThriveBeyondMormonism.com, tell your friends. So, Lacey, we're so thrilled to have you back. Welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.

3:42 Laci Green Thanks. It's been a while,

3:45 John Dehlin like two days. I know you're super busy, so we really appreciate your time.

3:50 Laci Green Sure, yeah.

3:51 John Dehlin Tell everyone really quickly about your new podcast just so that we can plug that right at the beginning.

3:55 Laci Green Oh, sure, yeah. I started a new podcast recently. It's called Indirect Message and it is about the Internet and the ways that the Internet is influencing our relationships, influencing our democracy, influencing our lives. And a lot of it is led by the experiences that I've had kind of watching the social media empire explode in my time online. And yeah, it's a lot of fun. And I think that people who are interested in thinking about the Internet as a tool more critically will be interested in the topics we talk about.

4:35 John Dehlin All right. And I've listened to it. It's a great podcast, so check it out.

4:39 Laci Green Thanks.

4:40 John Dehlin Alright, Lacey, so here's the deal. As you may or may not know, Mormons kind of aren't always the most knowledgeable or experienced when it comes to sex or sexuality. In so many instances, we're taught until we're 21. It's bad, it's bad. It's awful. Stay away, it'll hurt you. It's dangerous. We're not given any real sex education. In fact, I think a lot of times people from the Mormon tradition tend to fight the idea of sex education, oftentimes with the fear that it will encourage and increase sexuality of children and teens if we talk about it. And then of course, you know, in these marriages, these Mormon marriages, you know, there's all this porn shaming and body shaming and basic, basically sex negativity that can really be tough for Mormon marriages. And then we've got other issues where when people leave Mormonism, it's like the Kraken has been released. You know, sometimes we want as post Mormons to become the opposite of whatever we were as Mormon. And sometimes we can lose our way, whether that means infidelity, whether that means experimenting with various forms of sexuality, such as polyamory or swinging or other types of things. And we're not saying any of that stuff is good or bad, only that people can really make a mess of their lives fast, you know, when they haven't gotten good education and good experiences. And so I asked you to pull together a top 10 list of things you should know about sexuality after Mormonism. I don't know if it includes kind of the stuff I just mentioned, but I hope we can address everything you've planned. Maybe some of our audience's questions and maybe some of the things that I talked about in that intro. How does that sound?

6:49 Laci Green Yeah, that sounds great. You may have to give me a little more guidance on some of the. I guess I haven't, because I usually work with young adults. Some of the stuff you're describing is not really, like, your wheelhouse. In my wheelhouse, yeah. I mean, I can try to help, but, yeah, it's a little bit outside of those are. Those are, like, caused by other things in life that come later in life, I feel like.

7:17 John Dehlin Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so tell us about your sweet spot of, like, who it is you've been targeting in your messaging and just so that we have an understanding for kind of who your message is targeted to.

7:33 Laci Green Yeah, well, for most of my time online, I've been speaking to my peers, which would be people in their 20s. And so a lot of the work that I've done is for usually college students or young adults, even outside of college, who. Who have not really gotten a proper sex education and are sexually active, maybe, or are figuring out their sexual identity, maybe, and are just looking for a little bit more guidance than maybe they've gotten from home, church, and school.

8:04 John Dehlin Perfect. Well, then I'll change the title to kind of tweak it for that audience specifically, just so people know exactly who we're targeting.

8:11 Laci Green I mean, I think these things apply broadly, I would say. Yeah.

8:15 John Dehlin All right, good. Well, let's start. Hit us with number one.

8:19 Laci Green All right. Well, I would say that one of the hardest things for me when I first left the church was feeling okay with my body and accepting that my body was not a sign of sin, but that it held tremendous potential for my ability to move through the world and also to experience pleasure. And so I think one of the ways to kind of deal with those feelings is to actually learn about your body. And this is more of the, I guess, textbooky side of things. You know, read the books, do some googling from reliable resources. There's a lot of crap out there and learn about body parts as it pertains to sexual pleasure. In sex ed classes. A lot of the time, the anatomy that we get is based around reproduction. And that is also very important to know. But it's also important to know all the ways that your body can make you feel good. And you know, actually my book is a really. I hate to be a self promoter, but I think my book was written with this in mind. The idea of helping people understand all these facets of our bodies that maybe we don't learn about that are really helpful to know. Not just for pleasure either, but also for your health understanding. You need to know what's normal for you so that you can identify if something is off. Knowing what your body looks like, knowing what your genitals look like, knowing what the parts are, how they should be functioning, what's normal, where things might suggest some medical problems. Those are all helpful things to know.

9:58 John Dehlin And when it comes to anatomy, let's just say that the male anatomy tends to be a little bit more simple than the female anatomy. Is that fair to say?

10:06 Laci Green Yes.

10:07 John Dehlin What are some of the examples of understanding the female anatomy? And by the way, I just put a link up to your book, Sex, Learning, Loving and Enjoying youg Body. Please check that out, listeners. It's a worthy book for sure. Tell us what to give us some examples of how understanding the female anatomy better can help enhance the pleasure maybe of both parties involved. Assuming there's two parties involved. Yeah.

10:32 Laci Green Well, one of the most basic ones is the clitoris. Right. Knowing where the clitoris is, how. And experimenting with what kind of touch feels good. Everyone's a little bit different and everyone varies in sensitivity. So that's something that, you know, just getting literally in touch with what's going on down there with your. By yourself or with a partner. And understanding what clitoral anatomy is. You know, a lot of people think the clitoris is just on the outside of the body. And that is the most sensitive part of the clitoris. But it actually extends back into the vagina. It like kind of flanks the vagina. It goes around it. So that can be helpful for people who are trying to figure out what kinds of penetrative sex feels good. Hitting the clitoris from the back is something that people don't necessarily realize they're doing, but it can be helpful to know, hey, this is about the spot where this is at, and this is something that might feel good.

11:28 John Dehlin Okay? So I'm sure a lot of people just think that the tip is all there is. To the clitoris. So knowing that it extends farther, backing around, that's important to know.

11:38 Laci Green Yeah, it's got a lot more parts than I think people realize and we've

11:44 John Dehlin learned from Natasha's mentioned before. It's one of the only organs in human anatomy that's 100% dedicated to pleasure. Is that right? Natasha have that right?

11:55 Laci Green I think for it is the only part that exists just for pleasure. And that's something that I think comes up with religious populations a lot is if God created you and created this body part, you know, how could God be condemning pleasure? This only function is to make you feel good. And I think that's pretty cool.

12:18 John Dehlin I think we've talked about this before, but tell me if I'm right. For females, you mentioned it. Being with a partner. But something that's often forbidden within a Mormon construct is masturbation or it's discouraged. Interestingly, in recent years, it seems like the church may be backing off on that a little bit. But I think what I'm hearing you say is that a female getting to know her own body, including touching herself in ways that helps her understand how she best experiences joy, can be really helpful. And then number one, her lifetime of pleasure and joy, but also in her ability to have a really pleasurable experience with her partner. All true?

13:01 Laci Green Yeah, yeah. I think it's important to. You know something that comes up a lot is because women feel shame about their bodies or feel have been taught that masturbation or touching themselves is so wrong and so sinful, they are not actually familiar with their own body and kind of expect their partner to just figure everything out. And that's a lot of pressure a to put on a partner to just know everything about your body when they aren't feeling what is happening in your body. But also I think that, you know, it creates a distance between you, your mental and emotional experience of sex and your physical experience of sex. So getting in touch with what's going on and yeah, knowing how your body works and what feels good is helpful on all fronts, including with your partner there.

13:56 John Dehlin It's, it's, it's very common. I'm learning within Mormonism. For a woman to go 10, 15, 20 years and actually never have an orgasm because she doesn't know what an orgasm is. And she, when she has sex, she just says, well, I guess I'm having an orgasm because that's what happens when you have sex. And then once they leave the church and are open to exploration or other sorts of things, they have an orgasm for the first time. And sometimes it's very. There's a lot of anger and sadness and grieving when the. When an ex Mormon woman says, I could have been having this pleasure for my entire life and now I'm discovering this in my 40s or 50s.

14:35 Laci Green Yeah. And I think that's tragic and that they're, you know, they have been done wrong by all of the things in the world. And this is why I think that sex ed in public school systems is so important. Because it shouldn't really matter what someone's religious beliefs are. Their right to knowledge about our bodies and how they work is a human right. Like that is an essential aspect of our physical being. And yeah, I know women in my family have experienced this and it is really difficult for them to work through. But you know what? Life is long and it's better late than never and you just got to make up for lost time. You know what I'm saying?

15:23 John Dehlin I love it. Really quickly tell me if you're going to talk about this later. As I remember reading about this sort of stuff in the past, I remember this discussion of a G spot. Tell me if that's something you were going to cover later and if that's a myth or if that's a reality or if you. I think you've covered this on one of your video episodes.

15:43 Laci Green Is that right? Yeah, I've made several videos about it. Because so controversial, this idea of a G spot. And yeah, the G spot, which I think is more of like an area, can be thought of more of an area than a spec. It's not like an organ, but it refers to a network of glands, parauthral glands around the urethra, the P tube. And people have varying degrees of complexity in these networks, but they can be very pleasurable when stimulated for a few reasons. One is there's a lot of nerve endings around that area. It can stimulate the clitoris at the same time. But also I think people kind of intuitively know this because I don't know if it's the same for males actually. But if you kind of like clench when you're going to pee, it can feel a little bit pleasurable. It's like the happy pee feeling.

16:38 John Dehlin Yeah, we got that. Men have that.

16:40 Laci Green Yeah, so that is activating that network and can be very pleasurable for people to varying degrees. Some people, it's like eh, not doing much for me. And there's some research to suggest that some people actually don't have these networks. So there's a lot of diversity in people's bodies. But for some people it's very pleasurable and can be the source of powerful orgasms.

17:07 John Dehlin One of the other things that couples often strive for is sort of the mutual orgasm. And tell me if you're going to talk about that later because I don't want to cut off any of the other nine things you have.

17:19 Laci Green No, the things that I made with this conversation in mind are more like tips, not specific facts, I guess. Okay, so, yeah.

17:27 John Dehlin Okay, so like what I understand is that while that might be enjoyable, while that might be something to strive for, it's actually quite rare for the. Let's just assume it's male female sex. Although there are lots of types of sex. But for male, female sex, it's actually quite rare for the female to orgasm while the male is inside. Is that true? Not true. What's your understanding?

17:52 Laci Green Yeah, the likelihood of people coming to climax at the same exact time is low because everyone's a little different. And also every situation is different. Some people can kind of edge themselves and hold it until their partner is coming. But for the most part the idea that it just comes out of nowhere all the time and that's just the natural rhythm of sex is wrong. And I think that that often serves a male centered view of sex where when the guy is orgasming because women usually take longer, you know, that's when sex is over. And so women kind of get shafted, no pun intended. Shafted in the wrong ways, I guess. And don't actually, you know, get to experience pleasure in the same way when sex ends when a guy is done.

18:50 John Dehlin So in other words, it may not always be helpful to always try and strive for that or even to have an expectation or a hope, maybe be more creative and be okay with kind of a mutual ascension of pleasure or even sort of okay, now it's my turn. Okay, now it's your turn type of thing. Is that?

19:12 Laci Green Totally. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, it's more messy and organic and chaotic. It's not like this, you know, start middle end for both people in the same. Yeah. Capacity. So really get outside of that box if that's how you're thinking about sex.

19:29 John Dehlin And sometimes striving for that can actually undermine pleasure for both parties. Like getting stressed and having an expectation and trying to make it be a certain way.

19:40 Laci Green Yeah, I mean if that happens and it works out that way, great. If it doesn't, great. Like it doesn't need to be that way to be fun and enjoyable, you know?

19:49 John Dehlin Got it. Okay, great. What's number Two. This is good. I love number one.

19:55 Laci Green Yeah. So number two is to get in touch with your own desires. Thinking about, I think we're told to push those feelings down and, you know, learn to really suppress what we like and what excites us and what ignites desire within us. And getting back in touch with those feelings, I think can be really powerful. And it might take some time because, you know, if you've been conditioned to push down, push down because of the society we live in that is not always super open, depending on the subculture you're in. So one of the things you can do to get in touch with those desires if it's difficult for you is to, you know, people say, watch porn. I am actually not. I'm not anti porn, but I'm not super. Like, porn is the solution. That's not my school thought on this. I actually think erotica writing can be a little bit more helpful because it doesn't immerse us in. It's not as psychologically vulnerable, you know, because then you're comparing yourself to the bodies on screen and you're wondering, well, that's not what my sex looks like. Right. So when you're reading erotica, it creates more space for you to explore your own fantasies, in my opinion, and also maybe write down your own thoughts. You know, keep a desire journal. There are actually some good tools and resources out there. I think it's called my fantasy Journal. I can look this up if anyone wants the exact name. But there are books that people have put together to help you explore those thoughts, to kind of go through different sexy things, erotic things, and explore what is interesting, what sounds interesting to you and what doesn't. Another resource for this type of exercise is the yes, no, maybe lists. You can find them floating around all over the Internet. There's tons of versions of them.

22:00 John Dehlin Now, what would the yes, no, maybe list be?

22:03 Laci Green So they list all kinds of different types of sexual play, types of stimulation, types of specific sex acts, role play, things like that, to varying degrees of specificity. So some are really specific, like, I want my toes sucked on while I am dressed as a maid or whatever. But some are very broad in general. You know, like I'm interested in foot stuff that is a minority fetish, but still out there. So the yes, no, maybe charts, I think, can be useful not just in kind of thinking about desire, but also in negotiating your boundaries on them. The lists came were created with the intention of helping people say, yes, I am into this. No, I am not into this, or maybe let's talk about this a little more. And it's a tool to communicate with their partner.

22:59 John Dehlin So I'm just. I just pulled up one and I pasted a link to it. So it's got yes, no, maybe, and then it lists anal sex, blindfolds, bondage, cosplay, cunnilingus, which I think anal sex. That's oral sex, right?

23:13 Laci Green Yeah. I curated a yes, no, maybe list for my book as well. It might be online with stuff that I think will cater to the type of person who maybe hasn't explored as much and is not necessarily, like, ready to pull out the whips and chains.

23:33 John Dehlin That's in your book.

23:34 Laci Green That is in my book, yeah.

23:35 John Dehlin Beautiful. Another reason to buy that book.

23:38 Laci Green Yeah. I put a bunch of exercises and stuff in there that have been useful to me that hopefully can be tools and resources for other people.

23:46 John Dehlin Yeah. Because just as I'm reading through that list, I'm like, whoa, that's a lot of that stuff is really shocking for me. And I'm sure it's going to be shocking for a lot of the listeners.

23:54 Laci Green No, yeah. They started with the kink community. So a lot of the lists have a lot of kink stuff on there, which is great, if you're into that, but it can be a bit intense, I think. So. Yeah.

24:09 John Dehlin Real quick, you talked about erotica, like, the first book that comes to mind. My mind is Highlander. Is that right? Is that a famous one? Have you heard about that for women?

24:17 Laci Green Highlander. You know, the stuff I read is mostly online books. Not as well versed.

24:25 John Dehlin So they're like websites that have text erotica.

24:29 Laci Green There are. Yeah, there are. Where women post their own fantasies and stuff that they write. It's been a while since I've been down that rabbit hole, but if that's of interest, I can send you some links. But, you know, the Internet is huge. It's not that hard to find sex stuff on there either.

24:51 John Dehlin Yeah. Okay. So get in touch with your own desires and understanding, your own desired template and your partner's. And I guess part of that's being able to talk about it as well. Outlanders. Kimberly McDonald's says outlander. Thanks.

25:04 Laci Green Outlanders. There we go. You were close.

25:06 John Dehlin What did I say? Highlander. Outlander.

25:08 Laci Green Highlander.

25:10 John Dehlin Yeah.

25:11 Laci Green And that actually does bring me to one of the points that I have here as well, which is to start practicing being more verbal about how you feel about with your partner, about sexy things. You know, if something is really pleasurable, let them know if something isn't. Totally doing it for you. Let them know, have conversations about the things you're interested in and start to cultivate an environment where it's more okay to talk about that stuff. Now, I recognize that's easier said than done. If the precedent of your relationship has for a long time been to just sort of let things go unsaid or we have our own sort of ritual and we just do. We got our thing down. Right. Breaking out of that can be scary and challenging also, because how do you do that? But, you know, I think that's maybe an area where your expertise is stronger than mine. John. On, you know, helping couples communicate about these things, but just from personal experience. Not no expert witness here, but I think it's helpful to just kind of like do the Nike move. Right. Just do it. Just say it if there's something that you're thinking about or something that you're feeling. Practice just saying it and not apologizing for being open about it.

26:31 John Dehlin I can imagine one of the complications about this is, number one, sometimes. Well, every time a partner will be into some things that another partner will maybe even be aversive to.

26:45 Laci Green Yeah. With that kind of stuff, it's difficult.

26:48 John Dehlin Yeah. And so how do you like it opens you up to feeling rejected if you say, hey, I really want to try this. And your partner's like, I have no interest in doing that. And then all of a sudden something that's supposed to be pleasurable elicits the feelings of rejection and sadness. Right.

27:07 Laci Green Yeah. Yeah. I think this is another resource in the book. Sorry to be plugging it.

27:13 John Dehlin No, it's good.

27:14 Laci Green These are all things that. Yeah. I put in there.

27:16 John Dehlin I believe in books. I believe in books.

27:18 Laci Green Hell yeah. I think one of the things that can help with that is before opening up those conversations, if you're worried about that, if it's maybe an unconventional thing or you know, your partner and you know that they might be threatened or upset about this, practicing the. There are some non judgmental communication stuff in the book about how to talk about maybe a partner's kinks in a way that communicates how you feel without it. Like owning how you feel rather than making it about them being dirty and wrong. Like, for instance, I'm really into threesomes or whatever. There are different ways to respond to that. Right. So first I'm going to process that makes me feel really uncomfortable and why am I not enough for you? Right. So identifying what about that makes you uncomfortable being able to own with I statements. Well, I feel uncomfortable with that because xyz rather than. You're really into that. What's wrong with you? Like, am I not enough for you? Using. Sorry, this is really rambly. And I'm being inarticulate because it's a complex topic. But basically, you know, there is a way to think and process first in a way that acknowledges your own reactions, then owns those reactions so that you can have a more productive conversation. It may be the case that you and your partner want different things and have different boundaries and are not okay with the same things, and that's okay. I think the real challenge is in figuring out a way to talk about those things in a way that does not make either person feel like they've done something wrong. You know, their sexuality is wrong or their desires are wrong, unless their desires are actually not okay, which opens up a whole other can of worms. Stuff that is illegal or harmful.

29:23 John Dehlin Yeah. And I'll refer to Natasha every once in a while just because she's a friend and a real friend of the show. She likes this phrase, don't, you know, yum my yuck, don't yuck my yum. Don't yuck my yum. Right.

29:36 Laci Green Yeah.

29:37 John Dehlin It goes both ways. So don't make other people feel bad for things they like. Don't make me feel bad for the things I like. Right.

29:45 Laci Green Yeah, yeah. And be critical about your own emotional responses to those things. Because I think that's where a lot of people myself, where I get into, you know, hot, hot water, is when I have this, like, intense emotional reaction. And instead of taking time to process why I feel that way, sort of externalize it and project and blame my partner for those feelings.

30:08 John Dehlin Got it. Okay. I love it. So that was number three, which was learn to communicate. Start practicing being more verbal about how you feel about sex.

30:19 Laci Green Being more verbal. Yeah. And this kind of ties in as well. So another thing that another process I had to go through was to identify my own pain points. The things that were causing me guilt and shame and causing me to. How I deal with these feelings is just kind of shut down and remove myself. So how to prevent that from happening? So that's a lot of processing. And, you know, depending on your situation, I think this is where a therapist can be very helpful because it's not necessarily something that you should process with a partner. All of it. You know, it's something that is about you as a person and your partner can support you in that journey, but can't necessarily facilitate that journey themselves. So some of the things to be processing are Figuring out the types of things that you've learned trigger feelings of shame and looking at your coping mechanisms with that shame. Some people shut down, some people lash out, some people turn to the Internet, they turn to porn, some people drink or they'll do drugs, depending on compounding factors in their life. There are a lot of things that can come together and create a toxic stew. So really looking at your coping mechanisms and if you need help with those coping mechanisms, that's another point where a professional can really help, you know, guide you toward healthier ways of dealing with those feelings. And then also on that topic as well, in processing the pain points and in dealing with internal feelings of shame, is to become more aware of, you know, be paying more attention to how those reactions that you have affect your kids if you have them. Because kids pick up on, you know, if you're shaming your body or something, you know, and talking down about your body all the time, your kids are listening, they pick up on that, you know, and can internalize the relationship that you have with your body, even if that's not really the intention. And a lot of the young adults that I have met and talked to about their relationship with their parents, this is one that comes up. I'm gonna assume that, you know, as a critical thinking community here, you're probably not, you know, body shaming your kids and telling them they're ugly or whatever. But this does also happen where parents just talk down to their kids and think it'll encourage them to eat healthier or, you know, take better care of themselves, have better hygiene. The parents, like, shame the kid, but then the kid comes and talks to me and has all these internalized problems years later, because, you know, they feel like their parents hated them or couldn't accept them for who they were. So that's also just something to be aware of if you have kids.

33:37 John Dehlin I've seen that a lot where parents just think, oh, you'll be bullied if you're heavier. You'll. You'll be unhealthy. You might develop diseases that you don't want. And so I'll make comments at your meal, not mean ones, but just like, be careful what you eat or watch out what you're doing, or, oh, you need to go exercise, or whatever it is. You can send your kids subtle messages about their body and their weight that can actually really cause unintended harm for a long time.

34:09 Laci Green Yeah, and that's not to say that I don't think that people should talk about health. They absolutely should. That's the parents job to keep their course. You want to keep your kids healthy. I think there are ways to talk about it, though, that don't make them feel shame about their body. So if the issue is that they're eating a bunch of crap, you know, and not eating very healthy, don't make it about weight. Right? Make it about how, you know, you can become malnourished if you're not eating, getting all of your vitamins and minerals, or this puts you at risk for heart disease down the line. And hey, maybe you don't realize that right now, but it starts now. And trying to, if you're having those conversations, trying to direct it to be just about health, not about how they look, not about their value as a person. It's very important to accompany those conversations with positive affirmation. I love you. No matter what, I'm gonna always be here. You know, making it a really positive, safe environment. Make them feel safe. If you're telling. If they feel like they're being judged, that's not a safe place anymore. And home should be a safe place, in my opinion.

35:25 John Dehlin I love it.

35:27 Laci Green Yeah. So that would be number. What number are we on?

35:32 John Dehlin I got five. I got five.

35:33 Laci Green So far we have five. All right, we're out of order here, so let me look at my list. Oh, well, we've touched on some of these things. Well, since we were just talking about affirming, this is a good transition, I think, to affirm yourself, practice affirming yourself and also affirming your partner. So kind of going out of your way to uplift each other and to uplift yourself just on a regular basis. Make it a habit to be grateful for each other, to express gratitude when your partner goes out of your way for you, to express gratitude for the things that your body does for you, for having great health today or not having as much pain today or whatever it may be, finding ways to be in touch with the wonderful things that our bodies do for us and that sexuality can do for us, and verbalizing that, being more vocal.

36:29 John Dehlin Now, this is probably going to be obvious to some, but maybe not for others. But I want to be explicit about it. Some would say, what does being complimentary or kind or generous or affirming with your partner outside of the bedroom have to do with the bedroom? And again, I know it's kind of a softball easy thing, but can we just kind of explicitly address how sort of emotional intimacy can often really be an important prerequisite for physical intimacy?

36:58 Laci Green Yeah, of course. I mean, when you're going through your relationship and building intimacy. Sex is not removed from every other aspect of your relationship. Everything. Sex is really integrated into the entirety of your lives. And so if there are problems and feeling of like maybe your partner doesn't value you or appreciate you, or maybe you're fighting a lot, you feel like your partner criticizes you a lot, you know, there's tension in the relationship, of course that plays over to sex. And of course, affirming each other is not going to, like, put a bandaid on underlying problems in a relationship. But in a healthy relationship, I think it can help to keep morale high and to, you know, inject some of those sweet, intimate moments into your day that will make sexy time feel better later on because you're already setting the stage and having that be a regular part of your relationship. Not like, oh, well, there's gonna be a bunch of chaos. And then while at night we're gonna have sex and that's gonna be totally removed from the chaos because it's not. It's all connected.

38:08 John Dehlin I know Margi tells me a lot that for her, when we are really connected, when I'm helping with, you know, around the house, when I'm helping with the kids, and most importantly, when we're able to have talk time where we're sharing our thoughts, our feelings, where I'm listening, I'm being a good listener to her about her day, where I'm being an attentive, emotionally attentive and listening spouse. That's a turn on for her.

38:38 Laci Green Yeah, 100%, because it creates a feeling of safety, it builds trust, and it's hot. It's hot to know that, you know, you got your person and they're there for you and they understand you and they see you, and that's a very powerful feeling. So cultivating a healthy relationship in general, 100%, it's very sweet. And I think more couples should focus on that. That does actually tie into another tip that I had, which is to set aside time for you guys. That could be time to play in a sexual way. It could be time to just play. Go out hiking, go out for dinner, go for a walk, whatever you're able to muster in our busy daily lives, I think making time for each other, even if it's just, I don't know, a half hour, an hour. I'm in a really privileged position. I don't have kids, family, things to worry about. So an hour sounds reasonable to me every day. But, you know, I think that those kinds of things are important in Cultivating intimacy and making time for sex. Because sometimes life's just too busy and people put sex on the back burner.

39:48 John Dehlin Yeah. So if you can, on the one hand, I think, yeah, if you can schedule your exercise time, if you can schedule work time, if you can schedule time with the kids, why not schedule time for sexual intimacy or emotional intimacy or whatever it is. On the other hand, one of the things that comes to my mind is that if it's like there's always that stereotype of it being scheduled and rote and mechanical.

40:12 Laci Green Yeah.

40:12 John Dehlin And so you have to balance, I'm guessing, having it not be too scheduled or too formal. Right?

40:18 Laci Green Yeah. I mean, you can't just like put sex on a calendar every week and call it a day that's not super hot. There need to be moments of spontaneity. And when I say scheduling time for sex, I don't even mean like whatever idea of sex. Usually just penetrative sex that people have, but just like touching and kissing and cuddling, watching a movie, you know, anything that brings you physically closer together. I think something I've observed in people who have had really long term relationships, they sort of stop touching each other as much and maybe don't realize it. And you know, I don't think this is a cure all for a relationship. And sometimes there are underlying problems that make people not want to touch each other as much, which is a separate issue. But in general, you know, that physical contact is really important whether it's sexual or not. But. Yeah, and having that be regular, but also creating space for maybe feeling horny one night, you know.

41:21 John Dehlin Right. One of the things that. And I'll just be vulnerable. You know, one of the things that we've experienced some, you know, not a lot, but some is the downside of being orgasm oriented in sexual. And what I mean by that is sometimes based on various factors, whether it's age or frequency or stresses or illness or just body types or whatever, sometimes if the goal is orgasm, not only can that be problematic in terms of, you know, not being always achievable and thus viewed as sort of a failure if it doesn't happen, but sometimes I found that striving always for the orgasm can actually make an orgasm less likely in some situations. And then we, Margi and I, either of us would feel like a failure if the other didn't have that experience. And then we realized at some point, wait a minute, we just rolled around together, we were touching our bodies together, we were looking at each other's eyes, we were Emotionally intimate. We were connecting. How about that was just a lovely experience that neither of us needs to frame ourselves or the time together of failure if for some reason the other isn't able to achieve a climax.

42:53 Laci Green Yeah, absolutely. That's really well said and I think it's really, really important. It's easy to get caught up in orgasm. Orgasm, orgasm. Like what's the point of sex without orgasm? It's like there's so much, so many points to sex without orgasm. And yeah, the intimacy and just the romance and sweet lovingness of it all. You know, being intimate with your lover is, I think, really important. One thing I was going to say along those lines is that, you know, if you're having an issue with sort of thinking of orgasm as the goalpost is to set aside time like we were talking about some playtime to. With the deliberate intention of. This playtime is not for orgasms. This playtime is just to explore what feels good. There's actually some like, workshops in LA where people go for an hour and like do clitoris stuff for an hour with no, like, orgasm is just not on the table. The idea is we're just gonna play around for an hour. People usually end up orgasming a lot, I hear at these workshops. But just because part of it is creating the emotional space and saying, look, this is not expectation. This is not even what we're doing right now. Right now we're just feeling good and figuring out what kinds of touch and stimulation feel nice and experimenting, exploring. And I think that can be really powerful. And it's a nice gift too, for your partner. Like, hey, tonight is all about you. The next hour or two, it's just us, it's just you. That can be a really wonderful, enjoyable thing.

44:35 John Dehlin I'm just remembering a term from my PhD training called Sensate focus. Is that a term you're familiar with, Sensate focus?

44:44 Laci Green No.

44:46 John Dehlin So I'll just read it. It's a sex therapy technique introduced by the Masters and Johnson team. They go back into the 50s, I think. I think they're kind of older school, but it basically says. What's that?

44:58 Laci Green They're OG.

44:59 John Dehlin They're OGs. Yeah. It says it works by refocusing the participants on their own sensory perceptions and sensuality instead of goal oriented behavior focused on the genitals and penetrative sex.

45:12 Laci Green There you go. Exactly.

45:14 John Dehlin I just pulled a term out from a couple years ago.

45:16 Laci Green Hell yeah. Look at you, Mr. Textbook.

45:20 John Dehlin All right, well, that's good. And I'm sure some of my listeners are like, hey, what are these workshops I want to learn all about?

45:26 Laci Green Well, there's some controversy around them, so I don't want to put out the names. But you know, there's all kinds of couples workshops out there.

45:36 John Dehlin Email Lacy Green at. Okay, cool, that's good. So set aside time for your relationship. I love it.

45:46 Laci Green Yeah, to play, set it up. Time to play whatever that might mean to you that day. Okay, what are we at? That was all messy. Okay, let's see.

46:01 John Dehlin Well, we don't have to do exactly 10 or we can do nine or, you know, whatever.

46:05 Laci Green All right, sure. Well, here's one we haven't really talked about yet, which is getting the right equipment for playtime. I would say the very, very basics for a couple where one of them is female is to have a vibrator and some nice body safe lube for sexy time. That's kind of like stuff that I think everyone should have in their drawer because the vibrator or anything, any kind of toy that they like to help with clitoral stimulation, I think that's a good tool to have because penetrative sex for most women is not ideal for orgasm. So if you have some other tools in your toolbox, I think it can make it more pleasurable for both people. It's also just a good tool for pleasure, period, masturbation, exploration. And lube is really important. Like everyone should have lube when they're having sex because. Ouch.

47:11 John Dehlin Tell me this again. For some, this is going to be super obvious. For many newly questioning or ex Mormons, there's going to be no experience with this stuff. What in the world can the role of a vibrator be in sex between two people?

47:31 Laci Green Well, during penetrative sex, you can use the vibrator on your clitoris.

47:35 John Dehlin Okay.

47:36 Laci Green And I think that that is the ticket for a lot of people. There are a lot of different toys out there. And this can be a fun date night if you're open to it. Going to a sex shop. I would suggest going to a female friendly sex shop. Not porny, dark, scary, weird sex shop that makes you feel uncomfortable. You should feel very safe there and just check out what's there. But I think that having some sort of aids, because penetrative sex does not necessarily hit the clitoris very well in a lot of positions, having an additional resource there makes it more pleasurable.

48:19 John Dehlin Any. Are there any sort. Are you aware of any vibrators that are really popular because they're received really well by those who use them just as tips?

48:28 Laci Green Yeah, I Mean, there's so many now, it's such a huge industry. But my personal favorite that I've had for years is the Lelo vibrators. They're made with silicone, they're more expensive, they're like a hundred to $150. But I've had mine for over a decade and it's still going. So it's really high quality stuff. And it's very basic, nothing like scary. The materials are really safe and easy to clean. Last a really long time, they're rechargeable. The batteries obviously go for a very long time. That vibrator is very well up and it is still marching on. So I'd say that that's a pretty safe bet.

49:13 John Dehlin How do you pronounce Lelo?

49:15 Laci Green How do you pronounce Lelo?

49:16 John Dehlin Sorry, how do you spell it? How do you spell it? Sorry.

49:19 Laci Green L, E. L. Okay. L, E, O. Yeah, that's my favorite brand. But look, there's a ton of brands out there and at different price points, you just kind of gotta look around. But solid, solid recommend on the Lelo. As far as lubricant, I would just say don't use the stuff they sell at Target, you know, Ky, Astro Glide. All the ones that are out there are good for male masturbation, not good for female bodies. A lot of them have sugar in them, they have glycerin and can cause pain for years. I had no idea why it hurts so bad. But it was the lube, it like was irritating me and that happens a lot. So I wouldn't use it internally. Externally, whatever you're doing, fine. But internally I would say get yourself a nice body safe lube. Like what are some good ones? The one that I usually use is called Uber Lube. It's a silicon based lube and it's great. Very simple formula body safe. You only need a very little bit of it. So it lasts a really long time. I sound like a spokesperson right now, but these are honestly just my personal faves.

50:39 John Dehlin Yeah, I'm not aware of you getting any payment off of your interview with me, that's for sure.

50:44 Laci Green Yeah, or endorsement. I mean, I used to get paid for talking about sex toys. I used to do more of that stuff.

50:50 John Dehlin Stuff.

50:50 Laci Green But how many sex toys can you try before you start saying the same thing over and over, you know?

50:56 John Dehlin Sure, sure. So get the right equipment for sex, vibrators, lube, et cetera. Have a date night. Going to a reputable sex female friendly sex shop to see what might enhance your pleasure.

51:09 Laci Green Yeah, I Mean, there's lots of independent. That's the other thing. There's lots of, like, independent little sex shops around me. I don't know about Salt Lake City. Never been there. But about. In a lot of the cities, they have a few of these shops, like Babeland Good Vibes is my absolute favorite. That's in the Bay Area, California. But I've been, like, to little towns in Maine, right, where there's women that started their own shops that are women and LGBT friendly. And it's always a lot of fun because they're really knowledgeable and they make you feel really comfortable. And, yeah, it's a good time.

51:44 John Dehlin I've heard of Blue Boutique in Utah. I've heard of Dr. John's. So those are two that I've heard of in the Utah area for those who might be interested. Never been in one, I don't think.

51:54 Laci Green Really? I don't think it's weird. It's like these days because there's so many kinds. It's like all these, like, worrying gizmo, you know, gadgets and stuff. A lot of that stuff is, you know, not that great. I'll say. But there are a few, like, you know, stable favorites that stood the test of time. Yes,

52:23 John Dehlin that's good. That's a good tip. Get the right equipment.

52:25 Laci Green Yeah, yeah. It's basic, simple stuff. Have around really, like, the return on investment is really good on all that stuff. So let's see. Let's see what I have left on this list that we have not talked about yet. Okay. One of these things we may have touched on. It is about understanding and communicating your own boundaries. Something that I think I had really internalized while I was a Mormon was the idea that you. And this is not just Mormonism either. I think this is, like a cultural thing about how women are socialized. We learn to just say yes and to grin and bear it even when you're not comfortable, you know, even when you're not cool with it. I've talked to a lot of young women who are in college who literally feel like they need to have sex because they feel bad telling someone no. And so that's a big problem. Nobody should feel like they have to do something because they'll be so devastatingly rude if they don't. And Mormons in particular. They're so nice and polite and sweet and kind. And, you know, I think the problem of not feeling like you can't say no is maybe turned up a bit in that environment. So, you know, I think it's really Important to know your own boundaries and know that it is okay to say, no, thanks, I'm not into that. I don't like this, not comfortable, this doesn't feel good, Things like that. You know, you can tailor your tone and how you say it to the situation, but in general, it's not wrong to say no and it's not wrong to communicate when you're uncomfortable. In fact, it's very okay and important to say something when you're uncomfortable.

54:28 John Dehlin Yeah. One of the topics that I really enjoyed, the way you've talked about them, is just this topic of consent. And there are two big problems with at least two big problems when it comes to consent Mormonism. One is that we never talk about it. Like, I don't think the term sexual consent has ever come up in any Mormon chapel ever in the history of Mormonism. Now I'm exaggerating. I'm sure there might be some rare instances where it has, but we just don't talk about consent. I think it's a really important topic. The other thing is that a lot of people, when they think of consent, they think about, you know, when you're dating someone in a frat or a sorority and you're in college, that's when consent applies. But I don't think we even think about consent being an important topic within a committed relationship or even within marriage. Are those two things your experience as well?

55:23 Laci Green Yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of confusion about what consent looks like in the context of long term relationships or marriage. Because the idea is about consent in general is a sex act is consensual so long as someone doesn't say no. And even if they're like no, it's still considered negotiable for some reason, like, oh, come on, you know you want to. You know, there's a lot of convincing and pressuring that is considered socially acceptable. And yeah, I think that every couple has to sort of be on the same page about what your boundaries are and really listening to each other and create an environment where it's okay to say, no, this is not cool with me, or no, not right now, or, you know, here's how I'm feeling. The context, right, needs to be open, the communication needs to be open so that it feels okay to say those things. You know, I'm not of the opinion that people need to get explicit consent in the way that young adults hooking up in college do when they're married. You know, the context is different. There's already this established precedent of Trust and respect. And so that changes things a little bit. That said, those things should still be conversations, you know, and if someone is feeling like their boundaries are not being respected, those are important things to be able to talk about. And also just talking about. Sorry if this is repetitive, but just talking about those boundaries to begin with. You know, I like it when this. Sometimes I don't like it when you're initiating sex really late at night and I'm trying to sleep. That makes me uncomfortable because, you know, I feel bad rejecting you, but I'm exhausted. You know, those kinds of conversations need to happen and lay the foundation for open communication in the long run.

57:24 John Dehlin Very nice. Thomas, One of our listeners is chiming in. He's. He's making a plug for Husband and Wife boutique in Lehigh, Utah. No, he says it's an American fork. He corrected himself. And then he said there's a dirty Joe Punsters in Spanish fork. He says it sounds dirty, but it's a great shop. So Thomas is making some recommendations.

57:50 Laci Green Nice. Yeah. As long as people. I think going to a sex shop, if you've never been to one, it's already a little bit of a jarring experience. And. And, yeah, I think clean and bright tend to be my preference for the types of stores that I go into.

58:07 John Dehlin But I. Really dark and dingy isn't your thing.

58:09 Laci Green Yeah, I mean, it kind of creeps me out a little bit. You know, it makes me feel like, oh, this is so scary and shameful and like, ugh, I don't know. But, you know, there's not always a lot of choices either. And I definitely encourage people to support their local shops.

58:25 John Dehlin Thomas says, I've noticed that it's great to go look on the sex shop and get info and ask questions. The people who work there are down to earth and knowledgeable. But then look online for the product you're interested in because usually I think you can find products a lot cheaper. I'm sure that's true. And I'm sure it's sad for the retailers to have you use their experience and then go buy the product online. So that's a tricky thing. That's probably a tricky balance to.

58:51 Laci Green Yeah, I mean, I can't shame people for wanting to, you know, get the most people bang for their buck. But also, if it's. If you have the means to support your local shops, I think that's important as well, because otherwise they can't exist, you know, and a lot of. I mean, the world's changing. A lot of real spit. Real what? Are they called brick and mortar? It's like meat shops, meat space shops. A lot of brick and mortar shops are not able to keep their doors open because, well, the world's changing. But I like to think that sex shops serve a really important role in our culture in helping people feel comfortable and be educated.

59:30 John Dehlin Melanie writes, it always bothered me that consent was not talked about in church. I know married women who feel they owe their partner sex because it is part of the marriage contract. She says, that is not healthy sex. Is that not healthy sex?

59:44 Laci Green Lacey, you know the answer to that. I rule this not healthy sex. Yeah. I think there's a lot of. There's a lot of feeling like you

59:54 John Dehlin owe someone, and there's that term putting out. Right. I put out for myself.

59:58 Laci Green Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of pressure, and I think that's really unhealthy. And, you know, it's not necessarily. There's a spectrum of unhealthy behaviors here. It's not sexual assault per se, but it's definitely getting into some weird coercive precedents. Right. Where you don't really have a choice about what you do with your body. And I think that should really give everyone pause to really think about what that means.

1:00:27 John Dehlin Robert writes. So glad to see Lacy again. So much respect for her. I'm an instant fan of Indirect message.

1:00:34 Laci Green Oh, nice. Thanks so much. That's really sweet. I'm really glad.

1:00:38 John Dehlin Thanks, Rob and Robert. I can watch now, but I'll catch up later. I have actually wanted these interviews to happen for many years now. I can't contain how excited I am about this. Well, we're making Robert happy.

1:00:49 Laci Green Great. Well, that makes my day much better.

1:00:53 John Dehlin Thanks for writing in, Robert. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a mother. Monthly subscriber at mormonstories. Org.

0:06 John Dehlin Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and. And building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. So the conversation about consent and understanding and communicating your boundaries, that's an important one.

0:49 Laci Green Yeah. And just on that topic of consent, obviously, I think that consent should be introduced into the conversation whether it's about sex or not. You know, consenting to. People should have the right to consent to anything that happens to their body or in a relationship. And if you have kids, you know, really talking to your. Introducing that topic really early, not about sex necessarily, but, you know, one of the examples that's often given is sometimes we tell kids to, you know, go give so and so a hug, or, you know, we ask them to make physical contact without asking if it's okay with them. And I know it might seem a little bit, you know, over the top or silly, but I think that, you know, asking kids, like, do you want to give them a hug? And making it their choice and setting this precedent of when someone touches your body, that is your choice. Right. We're setting the precedent so that when it comes to sex, that concept is much easier and more intuitive because they've already been practicing consent for years in other contexts.

1:57 John Dehlin I love it.

1:59 Laci Green Yeah. Kids are like, the future is here, man. I hope that a lot of kids are getting better messaging now that the conversation about consent has become a little bit more mainstream. I think that's a really wonderful thing.

2:12 John Dehlin Yeah. I remember learning about this Good Touch, Bad Touch sort of program with kids. I don't know if that's kosher or not, but just talking explicitly with kids about body parts and what should and shouldn't be touched and what should happen if they are touched by someone in a place that's not appropriate. It just seems like proactive education with kids could really go a long way.

2:36 Laci Green Yeah. I think Good Touch, Bad Touch is a great paradigm for helping kids understand what's okay, what's not, and having that be an ongoing conversation. I think if that were the case everywhere, then we might be able to help child abuse survivors earlier because they'd have the language and the space to be talking about the things that are happening. With other adults in their life.

3:02 John Dehlin I love it. Jenna writes. I love this is being discussed. I know so many people who should listen to this. I will be recommending.

3:09 Laci Green Oh, well, thank you very much. I'm glad it's useful.

3:12 John Dehlin We're struck in a chord. All right, what else? Oh, go ahead.

3:17 Laci Green I was just gonna say I really wish this stuff were, you know, there were more spaces for this, and I really appreciate you making the space to talk about this kind of stuff. I did not have any of this when I was younger and particularly not in, like, my post Mormon struggles. So I think it's really cool.

3:36 John Dehlin Oh, good. Yeah. Well, you know, aside from like sleep and water and food and maybe education and community, like, sex is one of the most fundamental primary human needs, I think. I'm sure Maslow's got a low on his triangle, right?

3:51 Laci Green Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a beautiful part of life and it can be a beautiful part of relationships. And it's sad that we have a lot of. We learn a lot of distorted, messy, harmful ideas about it. All of us in our culture and all of us can be part of that change. You know, it's about the collective conscience sort of shifting and. And it doesn't mean getting like changing the culture around. This stuff doesn't require every single person to 100% agree or, you know, to adopt all the same practices. It's really just about tipping the culture in a direction of being more sex positive, more open, more communicative. I think that has a tremendous impact and maybe it's starting to happen. I like to think it is.

4:40 John Dehlin I think so. Yeah, I think so. All right, what else is on your list? I've got a couple thoughts or questions for after, but I want to make sure we get through with the things you have listed.

4:50 Laci Green I think that was everything. I mean, the only one we didn't. We did talk about it, but that I had explicitly on here was just to masturbate.

5:00 John Dehlin So that's number 10. Masturbate.

5:02 Laci Green Get out there. Get out there and, you know, have some fun with yourself on your own terms. When you feel safe, when you feel horny, whatever it might be, you know, just give yourself permission to have some you time.

5:15 John Dehlin Now, is there? And I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna give you a softball for educational purposes. Is there scientific research that actually says that masturbation is healthy?

5:26 Laci Green Yeah, of course there is. There's a lot of research.

5:29 John Dehlin What's healthy about masturbation when we've been so primed, when we've been so primed to think. It's. It'll make you gay, it'll. It'll make you blind. It's evil, it's sinful, it's lustful, you know, it's dirty. There are all sorts of things we've been conditioned to think and feel for decades.

5:49 Laci Green Yeah.

5:50 John Dehlin So, yeah, we need to be taught why it's good.

5:52 Laci Green Yeah, I mean, I think the main reason why it's good is that it feels good and it doesn't hurt anybody. And it gives us a nice safe outlet for our normal, natural human feelings. And it's a part of life. You get a little pent up, you get a little stressed out, whatever. It can be a nice harmless way to relax. But there's also research about how masturbation has some health benefits. I think sometimes people overstate the health benefits, but they are definitely there. There's some research about how it can help prevent prostate cancer. I think just kind of clearing the pipes, more or less. There's research about how it can help you sleep better. Obviously there's a lot of hormones that are released in the brain into the blood that help you relax, can reduce stress, can help you focus, clear your mind, generates intimacy. Orgasm in general generates intimacy and bonding. Just all this feel good stuff that are wonderful physiological responses that we have. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying this. There may be some other, you know, new research about medical benefits of masturbation, but I think the best reason of all is just that we're sexual. Most people are sexual creatures and, you know, it's a really harmless way to explore your sexuality and to feel good.

7:30 John Dehlin I love it.

7:31 Laci Green Life is stressful. Let's not make it more stressful than it needs to be.

7:36 John Dehlin Usually, usually when people, at least when men masturbate and I haven't talked to enough women to know if this is true. For women, it's helpful to. Sometimes you can do that just by conjuring images or just kind of going at it completely solo, so to speak. Other times it's useful to see images and sometimes those images are erotic and sometimes they're porn. You talked a little bit about porn previously in terms of whether a couple can use it as a form of erotica to help enhance their mutual relationship. But I imagine there's probably pros and cons to individual use of porn. We've talked about that quite a bit on Mormon stories. Do you have, you know, sort of like thoughts on or approaches about healthy or unhealthy porn or porn good porn bad or Porn. Okay. Just. Just as sort of a companion to self stimulation.

8:36 Laci Green Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with using porn. I would caution against only using porn. That's the main advice that I give when it comes to porn. Because I think only using porn can condition you to only respond to certain types of stuff. Stimulus. And this is a new area of research and it's highly politicized. So it's hard to know like what exactly is happening here with porn usage and how it affects desire, how it affects erections, whatever the case may be. So, you know, in general, I just take a moderate approach. You know, use it, have fun, don't get too crazy. If you're watching porn for four hours a day, that's probably too much. Keep it in everything in moderation. And the other thing I would note about porn usage is to make sure it is ethical porn consumption.

9:30 John Dehlin Talk about that. What's unethical porn and what's ethical porn? And then how do you find ethical porn?

9:37 Laci Green Yeah, so there's a lot of stolen porn online. There's images and videos that get uploaded that are of trafficked people. There's a lot. It's a big mess and, you know, nobody wants to participate in that or contribute to these black market industries that exploit usually women, but can exploit men as well.

10:05 John Dehlin And sometimes children.

10:06 Laci Green Right, and children. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's nasty. And you know, the big one is pornhub. And it's really in vogue right now to be like, wow, pornhub's great. And look at all this money they're donating to the environment. And pornhub also regularly steal. They monetize stolen content. They are participating in all these things we're talking about. And I am very, very skeptical of the big porn tube sites. It just blows my mind how much content they steal on a daily basis. So that's messed up. If there is a performer you like, go to their website and get it from them directly. There are other tube sites you can subscribe to that are ethically sourced. And when you go directly to the source, you have a much higher chance of making sure that those performers are being paid. They are not being exploited. They're doing it of their own consent and free will. And, you know, you are participating in an erotic artistic process rather than exploitative process. Now as far as where to go to find this stuff, well, it really depends on your taste, but I will tell you there is a porn company independently operated for every possible taste you could have. You just got to Do a little research. Personally, my favorite is Erica Lust's stuff. She is a producer, a feminist producer that's based out of Spain. She started this project called X Confessions, and it's basically she invites women to share their fantasies and then they make artistic porn videos bringing these fantasies to life. It's not necessarily like fat material all the time, but it's really fun and it's sexy and it's sweet, and everybody involved really wants to be there and is really enjoying themselves. It's very real. It features real bodies, real people, real relationships, and I love that personally. That's not gonna be for everyone. Right. Everyone's taste is different. So I would say do a little research and find artists that you can support. It's usually not that expensive to subscribe, and it makes a world of difference for a lot of these performers to make sure they have good working conditions, healthcare, things like that.

12:29 John Dehlin Yeah. And because we're not, there's no endorsements going on here. I'll post a link to that. That's Erica Lust. E R I K A Lust dot com.

12:38 Laci Green Yeah, she's great.

12:41 John Dehlin I guess. I guess somebody who's either lazy or cheap is gonna say, well, you have to pay for that stuff. Right?

12:47 Laci Green You do. And, you know, that's part of the. It's a conundrum of the digital economy that we. We live in, is that we're used to getting things for free. And I am just as guilty of this as anyone else. You know, we expect all of these things to be free. And I think, you know, when it comes to, like, pirating movies or whatever, there's like, a little more room to justify it ethically, even if it's not entirely ethical to pirate stuff, at least in that case, the victims of pirating are these giant film companies and actors that are being paid 20, 30, $40 million to be in these movies. Right. Like, they're not suffering, but when it comes to porn, a lot of these people are. And this situation is very different. They don't have nearly as much power as these feature film. These feature films do. Right. And so I think it's important to look at the power dynamic there, and if you are able to. To do your part. I realize it's not feasible for everyone and not everyone's gonna do that, but I'm still gonna say it. I think it's important.

13:59 John Dehlin I love it.

14:00 Laci Green And then you can feel good, too. You can feel good while you fap. You're like, hell, yeah, I'm supporting sexy art. And these people are Having fun and I'm having fun and everyone wins.

14:12 John Dehlin There are the common things you hear about porn can be that it sets unrealistic expectations, that it's not a great source for education. If you're in a commitment, if you're in a relationship, some sort of relationship that involves sex, I guess it's possible that you can deplete your ability to be with your partner if you're kind of exhausting yourself alone with porn. So it can sometimes run counter to the sexual relationship with the partner. Yeah. Other sort of disadvantages to porn or downsides?

14:55 Laci Green Well, definitely like 100% everything you just said. I also think that this is. I'm not sure how common this is. I know it happens because I've talked to guys who have experienced this. How common it is, don't know. But I think there are some guys who turn to porn to escape relationship problems. So it becomes sort of a coping mechanism. Right. Rather than a sexy fun time tool. And so I would say think critically about how you're using porn, how you feel when you use it, and to make sure that it is escapism, obviously. And it's okay for it to be escapism, but what are you escaping from? You know, if you're escaping from your relationship or from life and problems, I would say, you know, let's take a step back and think about what porn is standing in for. You know, does that make sense?

15:55 John Dehlin Yeah, totally makes sense. Okay, a few other questions. So Natasha has said this before, and I even had one or two of my own children say this to me. Number one, the term prostitute is sort of a term maybe that shouldn't be used these days. Tell me if that's true. I've heard the term sex workers is a more respectful term. And then if we're gonna talk about sex workers, whether it's actors in pornography movies or even people who engage in sexual acts for money, of course we're all trained to think that's just bad and evil. You should never, you know, do anything like that. You should never act in a. You should never, you know, engage in sex for money. There's even this something that's come up at the University of Utah. And I don't want to plant ideas in people's heads, but it's a reality. I think there may have even been a death recently over this of like university students that get sort of earn their, sort of make money for school by offering their sexual services to adults in the surrounding area. Do you have thoughts around all that? Is it just Awful and bad, or is it not our place to judge? What is your view on those sorts of things, Lacy?

17:17 Laci Green Oh, gosh, hit me with the tough ones.

17:20 John Dehlin Is that a tough one?

17:21 Laci Green That is a tough one because I think that I, like a lot of people, have a lot of conflicting feelings about this issue, and it's incredibly complex. It's hard to speak in general terms. Right. Like, each case is different. In general, I would say yes, sex worker is considered the proper terminology, just FYI. But in terms of if it's okay, if it's morally wrong, if it's morally right, I think that we should do everything we can to avoid creating more exploitation of people and that we should seriously consider what consent looks like in these situations where money is involved. We need to think critically about power dynamics that exist. And, you know, if students are feeling like they have to do this in order to get their education, I think that's a problem. There's nothing wrong with doing sex work as long as someone is really fully consenting to it, you know, and it's really all about that and is able to consent to it. Some people say, well, you know, there's always going to be a power dynamic. Every job we do, capitalism is inherently exploitative. You know, like, our labor is exploited. We don't get paid what our labor is worth because we have to pay off every rung of the ladder. You know, the CEOs, the job makers, whatever, they have to take their cut too. So of course it's exploitative. Mean that gets into some real philosophically difficult area for me. But in general, I'm very concerned about the exploitation of people, and I'm also very concerned about the right of people to do what they want with their bodies. So insofar as we have to figure out how to do both of those things at once, it's easier on a case by case basis. I don't fully have any, like, hardline. Here's how I feel about it on that.

19:25 John Dehlin But at least you've been able to share with us some factors to consider.

19:30 Laci Green Yeah, I mean, the liberation of people requires being able to identify exploitative circumstances. It also requires us to not be creating puritanical laws that tell people what they can and can't do with their bodies. So in some situations, you know, those things are in tension. There's tension there between, oh, is this person, you know, doing this because they really want to. To what degree is it okay for someone to be compelled to do things that they don't want to? Because that's the Society we live in, it's a big mess.

20:10 John Dehlin Yeah. One of the things, and I'm going to talk about something that could get really hot in terms of, like, controversial is this. Like, I'm seeing massage parlors pop up all throughout Salt Lake City, literally like two or three per block. And two things that I'm guessing are going to become issues or possibly could be issues or already are issues. Number one, I worry that some of the workers in some of these parlors might be people that are trafficked here in the United States. Have you heard about any of that happening?

20:48 Laci Green Yes, yes, that definitely happens. And massage partners are one of the fronts that sex traffickers use. That's not to say they're definitely being sex trafficked, but does that happen 100%? Yeah.

21:03 John Dehlin Yeah. And so being thoughtful about even. Even for massages, kind of, you know, what is. What are the standards? What's the quality? What's the certification level? Are people licensed? And is it a reputable shop versus not. Because that person who is massaging you may not be doing that fully. You want to. Would we say against their will? What would you say? Or just of their own accord or maybe exploitative circumstances or.

21:35 Laci Green Yeah, the circumstances are exploitative. Yeah. I mean, that's. There's so much. There's so much to be said about all that, and it's not my area of expertise, but it definitely distresses me. You know, I think that people should be able to get a hand job if they want, and the person is down for it. You know, I don't think that's necessarily like the most exploitative situation. But if people are being trafficked and compelled to do that kind of stuff against their will, and even if it's like kind of more subtly against their will. Right. Like they're being compelled to do it because it's the only choice they have, I feel a lot of not good feelings about that and worry and distress.

22:23 John Dehlin The other scenario that I imagine is happening, and I think I first heard about this in Esther Perel book called State of Affairs. Just the idea of a spouse going to a massage parlor, like you said, to get a happy ending. But maybe that's not something done. Maybe it is something done with the full awareness and consent of a spouse, but maybe it's not. And maybe it's a way to sort of get physical intimacy outside the bonds of marriage, but to kind of justify it. And Esther Perl asks, is that cheating or not? You know, And I guess every couple has to have their own agreement, but I think there are probably a lot of couples, especially Mormons and post Mormons in Utah, that don't think to talk about that kind of stuff. Right?

23:08 Laci Green Yeah. And I'd say if you haven't explicitly talked about it, then it is cheating because that's not like a. It's usually assumed culturally that sexual experiences are only being had with your spouse. So if you're having sexual experience or yourself, I guess. But if you're going outside to another person, I think most people. I could be very wrong about this, but I would assume that most people think, yeah, that's some sort of extramarital sexual experience. And so that's something that should be talked about. Is it the same as having an affair? No, you know, those are different things. But is it something that people assume is like, cool out the bat culturally? I don't think so. I think that's something that people have to talk about and, you know, maybe you'll decide that's a nice compromise for someone to get a little extra novelty, a few extra kicks to make them happy, and it's relatively harmless. Or maybe you'll feel like there's something wrong with it. You know, you're not okay with it.

24:09 John Dehlin I think where it might get risky or problematic is if you're. If you're. If things are right in the relationship you're in and. Or if things aren't, you know, talked about explicitly and then you get in the habit of hiding and sneaking away and getting your needs met from external sources. My gut instinct says that that can probably become a slippery slope that can lead to things that will really wreck your relationship if you don't want it wrecked.

24:39 Laci Green Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you have to be honest and open about those things. And it's really, you know, in that scenario, it's about, you know, what are you seeking from that experience? There's obviously something. It's something that you're not getting from the relationship. And whether or not that's something that can be resolved through compromise or kind of changing up your habits or whatever is a different story. But keeping those things a secret, I think most people agree, is not okay. And I think people know that. They know that it's not okay. They feel ashamed about it. And I would say you're kind of creating your own personal hell in doing that. And no, it's not easy to have that conversation. And no, it's not easy to talk about things that aren't working. To say, look, I'm bored, or, look, this is not doing it for me. Those are hard Conversations to have. But are those conversations way so much harder than telling your partner, hey, like, I need, you know, I went out and got, I don't know, a hand job or whatever it was. That's going to be much worse because then you're introducing lies and betrayal and mislead. You know, you misled your partner, and it ruins trust. It's very hard to reestablish trust, you know, so it's better to say, look, I know this isn't a pleasant feeling that I'm having, and I wish I wasn't having it, but I am, and I want to be honest about how I feel. So let's figure out some solutions together and see a counselor or, you know, do what you need to do to solve that in a way that's not gonna wreck your life, because it will come out like you. You'll either live with a forever guilty hell in your mind, or you'll be found out, and it's gonna be really awful.

26:31 John Dehlin Yeah, I'll be super vulnerable here, and if this only helps one person, I'll feel glad about sharing it. But I found myself, as these massage parlors started popping up around where I work, I found myself wanting to go. And I think I found myself wanting to go because I was hoping, as they say, kind of for a happy ending. And it was really starting to torment me where I was thinking about it all the time. And what I ended up doing was just on a walk with Margi, talking to her about it, and I just said, hey, this is going to be hard. I feel bad about this. I'm not proud of this, but it's really been bugging me, and I'm worried that if I just ignore it, I'm gonna do something that could hurt our relationship. So she's, like, bracing herself, and I told her, I said, I'm really having these urges to go to a massage parlor, hoping that something like that will happen. And by the way, I know couples where they agree that that's okay. It's like, hey, if you're on a business trip. So I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, but I think going without talking to Margi absolutely would be a bad thing. And I think there are risks, even if there's a full agreement with the couple. But anyway, what I loved is that Margi was super cool about it. She was a little bit sad or a little bit shaken or a little bit scared at first, because I don't think she saw that coming. What I loved about it was she didn't shame me, she didn't make me feel bad about it. She didn't like, you know, yell at me. And I loved. Something magical happened once I talked to her about it. My desire to go do that went away and I wanted it to go away because I don't want to do anything that would hurt my relationship. And so that, that was the most magical, powerful thing about it is I've had no desire or interest or temptation for months after just being vulnerable and having that conversation with her.

28:33 Laci Green Thanks for sharing that story, John. I think that's really cool to be open about because I think a lot of people maybe find themselves in similar situations but aren't so willing to share. Yeah, I think that's really cool. And it's interesting that, you know, part of what was drawing you to it was maybe like the taboo or like feeling like you couldn't share these things with her and you got closer through the experience. I think that definitely can happen. And that's wonderful.

29:01 John Dehlin Yeah. And I'm guessing not all spouses are gonna be as understanding as Margi. And especially sometimes, you know, any sort of sexual exploration outside of like missionary heterosexual sex within the Mormon minds can be just shocking and awful. And there's a lot of men and or women in Mormonism that have been super shamed forever masturbating or looking at porn. And so. And we've associated some of those things. Like they say porn is the new drug and it's worse than drug addiction and it's worse than cheating or it is cheating and it can be a really charged thing. And so I'm also just acknowledging that probably not all spouses are going to react the same way Margi did. And that when that happens, it can be deeply troubling and disturbing and feel unsafe and it can backfire.

29:59 Laci Green Yeah, I mean, it's about the environment and openness around these topics, making it okay to talk about them if it's already really stigmatized in a point of stress and conflict. Yeah, that's much more difficult and an unenviable position to be in. But yeah, thinking about it through the lens of your relationship I think helps. But don't discount your own needs either, you know, or your own feelings, what you're feeling.

30:32 John Dehlin But I'm just going to say, if this is just my opinion, my experience, if any of you are in a committed relationship where you're tempted to violate the trust of your partner and do something because you're afraid of talking about it, my advice is talk to them before you do the thing. Because the damage, the risks and the damage of violating that trust, and you've already mentioned this, Lacy, the risks and the damage of violating that trust is usually far bigger than the risks or the damage of having the conversation. And even if, worst case scenario, the conversation leads to discussions that lead to separation or an end of the relationship because they're just irreconcilable values or needs, my opinion is it's better to end the relationship without the massive breach of trust than it is to end the relationship on this massive breach of trust. I think everybody benefits through that, that sort of honesty and candor. Now, I don't want to say everybody, there always are going to be exceptions, but just generally my advice as a coach is have the hard conversation rip the band aid off now because it's a little pain now or potentially a massive amount of pain later.

31:58 Laci Green Well said.

31:59 John Dehlin Is that okay? Does that sound all right from your perspective?

32:02 Laci Green Sounds great from my perspective. Yeah, totally agree.

32:06 John Dehlin And living with guilt and guilt, like self imposed guilt and shame can really take years off your life. It can affect your sleep, your stress, your cortisol, your mental health, depression. Just living with secrets and guilt is just. It's unhealthy for everyone. Yeah, try not to do that.

32:31 Laci Green Try to avoid all of that toxic stew.

32:39 John Dehlin A couple comments from our listeners. Lacy. Oh, sorry, say that again.

32:43 Laci Green You're back. You cut out for a second.

32:45 John Dehlin Oh, okay. Sorry about that. A couple quick comments from our listeners. You're very generous with your time. We'll be wrapping up super quick. So Tiffany writes, I do not agree with good touch and bad touch. So when they get older, if it feels good, it's okay. When someone is abusing them, it feels good, so it's okay. Question mark. So what would you say to Tiffany, who's got some concerns about this idea of good touch and bad touch?

33:09 Laci Green Let me make sure I'm understanding correctly. Like the idea that sexual touch is always bad, you sort of prime a kid to think that stuff that might feel good is wrong.

33:21 John Dehlin I think she's misunderstanding what the good touch, bad touch program is, because I think she's basically saying if a touch feels good, it's okay, and if a touch feels bad, it's not okay. And that's not. The good touch, Bad touch program that I'm aware of is where kids are shown sort of as zones of the body. For women, the breasts and then for women and men, the genitals and then the buttocks for both. And it's basically, you should never touch Anyone in these places, unless there's. I don't even know if they say with kids unless there's consent, but they're definitely told no one should be touching you in these areas. You know, as a child.

34:00 Laci Green As a kid. Yeah. And also specifically, the protocol that I got when I was a kid was, adults should not touch you in this area, except for your doctor or your parents. That's it. And of course, that doesn't mean that there's, you know, eliminate the possibility of child abuse. But the idea is that if there's an adult that's in their life, a teacher, a family member, babysitter, whatever it might be, who is touching them inappropriately, it gives them the understanding of, oh, that's not where this person in my life is allowed to touch me. So it's not. I think I see what she's saying, and I think if it is conveyed as like, all of these areas are bad across the board, and all of these areas are okay across the board, that would be troubling. Right. But it's specifically to help kids understand what kinds of touch are okay from the adults in their life.

34:55 John Dehlin Yeah. Thomas writes about having to learn from their little girls. Sometimes they don't want to hug an extended family member. I think there's this. There's this potentially damaging tendency we have. It's like, hug grandpa, kiss grandpa on the cheek. Is that. Are there some risks or some downsides to sort of that seemingly very innocent thing of hug grandpa even though you don't want to, or kiss grandma on the cheek even if you're not comfortable?

35:21 Laci Green Yeah. I was mentioning this a little bit before when we're talking about consent, like the question we should be asking kids, like, do you want to give grandpa a kiss before we go? You know, like giving. Putting. Giving them the option, and if they say no, then that's it. And I understand that seems kind of like jarringly modern or something for some people, because, you know, it's innocent and it's sweet. Right. Like, just give them. Give. Grip a hug. You know, it's familial. But I think the message that is conveyed there is really, really important that you can say no. You know, if you don't feel like giving someone a hug today or you don't want to be kissed today, then that's okay. And I think that that is a really common one that comes up with kids a lot.

36:13 John Dehlin Yeah, that's true. Let me ask you this. This is probably its own series of podcasts, but there are either millennials Leaving the church before they get married, leaving Mormonism after living a celibate life for 19 or 21 or 25 years. And then there's also post Mormons who are married, who get divorced and all of a sudden they're staring this single life of sexuality and single life in the face when they, the only person they've ever had any real sexual experience with is their former spouse or with no one. And I imagine it can be super confusing or scary or even terrifying to think about being a 40 year old woman now, now having to contemplate or 40 year old man or a gay man, let's say a closeted, you know, or a gay man in a mixed orientation marriage who then gets divorced and now is, is looking at dating men. You know, with the scare of AIDS and STIs and other sorts of things, you know, there are all sorts of scenarios of being, you know, and when my own children are adults, I can't really tell them about, you know, you can say use protection or be safe or smart, but I don't even know what to say about having a healthy sex life as a single person. Are there resources or tips for people who are facing that? Either millennials leaving the church or newly

37:45 Laci Green divorced Mormons for getting back out on

37:47 John Dehlin the dating scene, for learning how to navigate sexuality in dating, because none of us, most of us weren't sexual and we were dating. We don't know how to do that.

38:00 Laci Green Yeah, you know, maybe this is a controversial opinion I have, but I think a lot of people feel this way, like they don't know how to navigate sex and dating. So I would say go back to the tips that we had talked about and self education, you know, do some reading, do some research, get in the know, find some support systems for yourself, whether that's friends or YouTube vloggers that you like, podcasts you like to listen to, you know, find, fill out your support system in various areas of your life and just buckle up, get ready for the ride. Because no one knows what they're doing, dude, no one knows what they're doing.

38:40 John Dehlin Interesting.

38:41 Laci Green It's all a mess. Like everyone's learning, everyone is making mistakes. And if you make a mistake or you feel awkward or you feel clumsy, you're the majority. You know, like most people feel like that. The people who feel like they got it on lock and they know what's going on and this is a breeze, I've never met that person personally.

39:04 John Dehlin Got it. People can go back to your YouTube channel and watch your old videos, right? You Talk about a lot of this stuff.

39:10 Laci Green Yeah, there's a lot of stuff on that stuff on my channel. But I think, you know, Internet resources

39:16 John Dehlin are sex positive, right?

39:17 Laci Green YouTube sex plus. There's a. There are dime a dozen. There's a bunch of stuff online. Now. The harder thing is probably finding an in person community where you can make friends and, you know, have a. Be social and get outside the. Get outside your box of your social scene, current social scene. That'll, you know, if you really feel like an alien on another planet, that'll help you maybe dip your toes into the water before you get out there. Kind of get a feel for what life is like on the outside. And meetup.com I think is a really incredible resource for that. Whether you like hiking or you want to join a book club, or you want to. You like crafting or you just want to have a crew to go grab drinks with after work on Friday. You can find all of that on meetup. I don't know about every single town, but I know that it's a very widely used resource at this point and it'll help you kind of find more community outside of. Outside of the church. And, you know, dating sets for everyone, so having friends to, you know, have a beer with or whatever can be very cathartic. Find your people.

40:35 John Dehlin I'm mindful that we always have this tendency to talk in sort of heteronormative, heterosexual sort of terms. And there are listeners who are bisexual, there are listeners who are exclusively same sex attracted, there are listeners who are trans. And I imagine that there are a lot of what we talk about applies to everyone, not just heterosexuals or straight people. But I imagine that there are conversations and education and resources needed for our trans friends and our LGB friends. Is that your experience as well?

41:14 Laci Green Yes, that is definitely true. And there are a lot of resources for all of that as well. I think almost everything we've talked about applies across the board here in we're speaking really generally, you know, so I would say that applies, you know, if you're LGBT and moving, just coming out for the first time, or, you know, exploring your identity for the first time. When I say find your community, find other LGBT people who can relate to your experience, who can support you in ways that cisgender and straight people don't always get, you know, having people who really get it on that aspect of the journey can be very powerful. Not everyone has the luxury of having that in person. If you're near a city of, you know, decent size, then you should be able to find that these days. But if not, you know, go online. And there's so many communities online. It's wonderful. It's everywhere. Find yours, you know, find your people. It takes a little time. Might have to do a little searching around and, you know, dipping your toes in different pools before you find the right temperature for yourself, but I think that's a positive exercise.

42:28 John Dehlin In Utah, there's the Utah Pride Center. You can go to utahpridecenter.org they have counseling and support. They have men's support groups, women's support groups, trans support groups.

42:39 Laci Green Yeah. And also just, you know, if you have a college or university in your town, even if you're not a student, the women's and LGBT centers on college campuses are very well connected in the local community and can definitely pass on, you know, give you the DL on what's going on in the community that you're in. It's a really good resource.

42:58 John Dehlin So you're saying a non student could go to the U of U LGBT center and maybe get some education even if they're not a student?

43:05 Laci Green Yeah. I mean, the LGBT centers that I've worked with, 100%, they'd be like, hey, you know, we're here to serve the community as well. But if you're worried about just, you know, going while the center is open, you could look online, because a lot of them have websites with resources. They'll post calendars of events that are happening throughout the month. You know, make a point to go to one of the events that are open to the community and, you know, get ready to put yourself out there. It can be uncomfortable if you're not used to it. It's not going to be a super comfortable experience the first few times. But once you get acclimated and feel more comfortable with the people you're around, it does get easier and you will start to find friends and family in those spaces, hopefully.

43:49 John Dehlin I love it. Last question. I'll just ask. And I wished I had asked you this, and this is going to go back to kind of you and your life. It's got to be weird to be a sex educator in the sense or an activist or whatever you, however you might self identify. I can imagine if men date you or men or women date you, and they know this is your role, that, like, they might have weird expectations, you might feel pressure. I wish I'd asked you this in our last interview, but are those all kind of real expected, normal dynamics to sort of being someone who tries to help lift the dialogue about sex and sexuality?

44:35 Laci Green Yeah, I think more so when I was younger. These days, I'm very upfront, and I think the people that I end up having really close relationships with, part of why we have closer relationships is because they understand that they don't see me through this filter. They don't see me as a YouTuber. They see me as a Lacey, and, you know, know me as a person. So I think that helps a lot. But, of course, there's some weird expectations. And, you know, like we've been saying. A common theme in this conversation, I think, is just saying what you feel and getting it off your chest. It makes it a lot easier. And with my partners in recent years, I've just said, hey, just so you know, like, teaching sex ed doesn't. I don't want you to have any weird expectations. I'm a normal person, you know, I'm still learning. I don't know everything. Yes, I help young adults navigate this stuff, but a lot of it, I'm still navigating myself. So, hey, let's calibrate expectations. And I'm happy that those expectations usually haven't been on the table in the first place, so.

45:42 John Dehlin So that's kind of leveled up. That's leveled out for you.

45:45 Laci Green It has. When I was younger, I think I, like, didn't fully understand how to deal with that situation. And I think I was also encountering more people who were looking at me through more of a, like, sexualized lens. Whereas now I think people don't really sexualize me as much because I know the topics that I talk about are not. I don't know, when I was younger, I was more into, like, the mechanics of sex. But what I talk about more now is the stuff we've been talking about, you know, the health, the emotional aspects of sex. Not like, I don't know, how to eat your girlfriend out or whatever.

46:35 John Dehlin Right. Last question that comes to my mind, and it's kind of an obvious one, but I just want to touch about it. My understanding is STI rates are disproportionately high in Utah. So give some quick tips just about STIs if you're okay.

46:53 Laci Green Yeah. If you're hooking up outside of a monogamous relationship, then you want to make sure you're practicing safer sex. STIs are really high everywhere in the country right now. They're the highest they've ever been in history. And there's a lot of reasons for this, but the individual reality for each of us is that we need to Be extra, extra vigilant and safe. Using condoms, obviously, but also getting tested regularly if there is a problem. If you have an sti, which often, you know, you wouldn't know you have an STI because most don't have symptoms, it's important to be able to catch that early. Most of this stuff isn't gonna do any harm to you at all if you catch it early. So it's really just about being on top of your sexual health. You have multiple partners, or if you're switching partners, you should be tested before changing partners, ideally. And practicing safer sex every time, you know, knowing your partner's status. Just those are all basic aspects of being a sexually safe and healthy adult in the era we live in where there's a lot of disease.

48:09 John Dehlin And I imagine it's kind of weird to, like, say, hey, before we have sex, I want you to get tested. Right. That. That could be something that makes someone feel, oh, you don't trust me. You think I'm a slut. Like, what's. Yeah, what's going on? You think I'm a gigolo or whatever.

48:26 Laci Green Well, the way I always put it, because I have never had a partner that was. I require my partner be tested before we have sex.

48:34 John Dehlin You do?

48:35 Laci Green Yeah. I will not have any sexual. I will not engage in any sexual practices that can transmit an STI without knowing their status first. A. So that if they have chlamydia or gonorrhea, they can be treated first. Or if they have a viral sti, so that we're really, really vigilant about condoms on top of birth control. And, yeah, that's my personal practice, and it has kept me very healthy and safe at this point in my life. Do people feel offended when I ask them? I don't think so. And maybe part of that is, you know, just my sex ed life. They expect it, but I think it's a way. There's a way to say it that's not offensive. Like, hey, you know, this is a standard practice for me. I just want to make sure we're both healthy and safe, and that helps me to relax so that I can have a good time. So before we go out on our next date, would you do me a really big favor and stop by Planned Parenthood and just get a quick STD test done? Or you could propose that you go together, too. If you're. If you haven't been tested yet, be like, hey, do you want to go together maybe next week? You know, and then we'll both know we're in the clear and we'll be ready to roll.

49:55 John Dehlin That can even be a little hot, a little bit exciting, right?

49:58 Laci Green I think so. I think it builds anticipation and, you know, is it the sexiest thing on the planet? No, but look, STIs aren't a sexy feeling either. And it's just a fact of life. We have to take care of ourselves. We have to take care of each other. And that means getting tested first.

50:17 John Dehlin And if somebody's like, well, you don't trust me, or I'm offended, or, you know, I don't think I should have to do that, I'm guessing that's a red flag.

50:27 Laci Green Yeah, that's okay. Well, I guess we're not. I guess we're not having sex.

50:35 John Dehlin Yeah. Your partner should be eager and willing to make sure they're healthy and you're healthy.

50:42 Laci Green Yeah, 100%. I mean, they should want you to feel comfortable. And if you communicate that this is something that is really important for you to feel comfortable, they should be totally into that. And yeah, I mean, I can't imagine, like a decent person guilting you or making you feel bad. Like, that's not a good person. You know, even if they have reservations or maybe they feel insecure, those are things that can be talked about. But ultimately your. Your wishes should be respected. And if not, you have every right to say, okay, this is not the right experience or partner for me.

51:22 John Dehlin Yeah, I promise you that. That was last question, but now you made me think of one more. Just because of something you said. I started at the beginning. There is sort of a mini trend in post Mormonism to consider ethical non monogamy kind of situations, whether it's swinging or polyamory or whatever. You know, there's always sort of this stereotype about threesomes and sometimes different. Different types of porn. Kind of encourage thinking about this sort of thing. Do you have any sort of brief thoughts or words of wisdom around, around those types of topics? I know, again, those are their own podcast series, but yeah, brief thoughts.

52:03 Laci Green I would say the proof is in the pudding. If it's ethical non monogamy, then there's no problems. Right. So that's a situation where you really need to be thinking deeply about the ethics of the situation. The other thing I would say is that a lot of people these days, I feel, are turning to polyamory and non monogamy as a band aid on existing relationship problems. And that is a recipe for disaster. It is not a solution to relationship problems. It is a lifestyle and a relationship style. It should not be seen as like, well, let's try this to solve our problems. I think that's where people get in a lot of trouble. Things can be very painful. That's just my own personal experience with that. Other people, you know, might feel differently, but I have done the ethical, non monogamy thing and learned a lot.

53:03 John Dehlin My understanding is it's rarely what people think. It's a ton of communication. It's a ton of work.

53:12 Laci Green Ton of work.

53:13 John Dehlin It's super stressful as emotions get involved and as you're trying to, you know, meet each other's needs and then introducing other people and their needs and emotions can really take things out of control sometimes.

53:30 Laci Green Yes. You need to be ready for that. If that's the lifestyle, Everyone needs to be really on board with the amount of emotional work it will take. Can it work? Can people be happy? Absolutely. Is it the solution to boredom or other relationship problems? No, it is not.

53:53 John Dehlin Yeah, it's not. It's unlikely to fix your relationship problems.

53:56 Laci Green Yeah.

53:57 John Dehlin It's more likely probably to accelerate other problems.

54:01 Laci Green The problems that already exist. Yeah.

54:03 John Dehlin Yeah. Exacerbate the problems that already exist. Yeah. And, you know, and I. There's always the idea, be careful what you wish for. There are a lot of guys who sort of say, hey, I really want to open things up, you know, because I'd like to try other things. And it ends up being that they have a hard time finding a partner. But sometimes for women, it's late a lot. It's a lot. What's that?

54:28 Laci Green Then she gets laid a lot.

54:29 John Dehlin Yeah. And he's outraged and frustrated and she's having a great time and it didn't, you know, and sometimes again, it ends to. It ends up, you know, causing the relationship to separate. And so it can really. If you really value a relationship, I'd say be extra careful.

54:49 Laci Green Yeah, I agree. That's not a condemnation. Just, you know, word to the wise.

54:58 John Dehlin Yeah. Well, Lacy Green, this has been a lovely two hours. I'm so grateful that you were willing to share. We've loved having Natasha Helver Parker on, but I love having an extra different point of view because you bring a perspective that is its own unique, valuable, lovely perspective.

55:18 Laci Green Thanks, John. Yeah, I am happy to be here. Hopefully it was helpful in some way to someone out there and. Yeah, anytime. This was great.

55:30 John Dehlin I think it already has been. The book is Sex Learning, Loving and Enjoying youg Body, released September of 2018. And please buy it. We put a link to it in the comments section, of course. Lacy's YouTube channel of the past was called Sex Plus. And there's a lot of good content. There's. And one last plug for your wonderful new podcast, Lacey.

55:56 Laci Green Yeah. The podcast is called Indirect Message. You can find more information about that @LacyGrain TV podcast.

56:06 John Dehlin And it's a really cool podcast about the influence of social media and the Internet on society, on relationships, on individuals, on our collective health, ethics and. And all sorts of amazing, wonderful, important topics that affect all of us very personally. And we talked a lot about that. If you didn't check out my three plus hours with Lacy in our previous interview, check that out. Cause it was. I love that. I loved our discussion.

56:37 Laci Green I did too. It was really great.

56:40 John Dehlin And if you want to meet Lacy in person, or Wayne's sermon of Imagine Dragons, or Amber Skora of Leaving the Witness, the Book, or Natasha Alpha Parker or me, or Mindy Gledhill, or lots and lots of other super cool speakers, consider coming to thrivebeyondmormonism.com the Thrive Conference. It's November 17th in Salt Lake City. We've priced it at $15 a person. We're pretty much guaranteed to lose lots of money, but we want to support healing and growth and community for post Mormons. It's a positive conference, looking forward, not backward, and we would love as many of you as possible who are interested to attend. We're like a few people away from our 1000 people goal of having at least 1000 people there, and I know we're going to reach that goal just within a day, but maybe we can get 2000. So check us out at Thrive Beyond Mormonism. And finally, please do consider supporting Mormon Stories Podcast with your personal donation. A monthly donation of 10 bucks a month or 50 bucks a month or 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford really allows us to invest in all that we need to invest in to keep this program alive. So please support us. You can give us a positive review on itunes. You can give us a positive review on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page. You can share these episodes with others. Any of that is really helpful and a huge thanks to our donors who makes so much of this possible. If you are already supporting Mormon Stories of the Olden Stories foundation, thank you so much, Lacy. Can people donate to your podcast?

58:21 Laci Green No.

58:22 John Dehlin That's interesting. Okay, well, I guess I can't plug that then.

58:25 Laci Green Nope. Donate to Mormon Stories. Make all the magic happen.

58:30 John Dehlin All right, Laci Green, we hope you'll come back anytime. You're a friend of our program and

58:35 Laci Green we think you're great that's lovely. Thanks, everyone.

58:38 John Dehlin All right, stay in touch. Thanks, Lacey. Okay, bye. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.