Understanding the Mormon Deconversion Process

Episode 9

0:20 John Dehlin Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. It is February 5, 2019, and we are very excited to be with you today. After a mini hiatus, I am joined by my brilliant. I am Dr. John Delin. I am joined by my brilliant, insightful, wise, dear wife, Margie.

0:46 Margi Dehlin Hi. Thank you. Happy to be here.

0:49 John Dehlin And as always, we are joined by the brilliant, talented, experienced, seasoned, fun, joyful, witty, inspiring all.

1:00 Margi Dehlin So many adjectives.

1:01 John Dehlin Co host.

1:03 Natasha Helfer Oh, my Lanta.

1:07 John Dehlin What? What?

1:08 Natasha Helfer I think that this is like my weekly therapy. It's just being introduced by John Dolan on this podcast.

1:16 Margi Dehlin John can provide you your daily affirmations.

1:19 Natasha Helfer Yes, this is very, very helpful. I should just record this and repeat this every day.

1:25 John Dehlin Welcome, Natasha. And welcome, Margie.

1:28 Natasha Helfer Margie and I will have to start one where we invite the brilliant.

1:33 Margi Dehlin Next time. Next time.

1:38 John Dehlin We are so excited to be here with you today. When I talk about a hiatus, it is because Margie and I and Natasha, we all did some travel and we will talk about that in a bit. But, Natasha, you went to Thailand, right?

1:53 Natasha Helfer I did. Which was, like, so much fun and totally out of character for me. And, like, for fun. Like, not for work. Like, I actually traveled for fun.

2:03 John Dehlin And you went with Andy, right?

2:05 Natasha Helfer I went with my husband. And we had a great time and visited some friends, some dear friends of ours that are living over there. So it was very, very nice.

2:14 John Dehlin So what's it like? What's it like to travel after you've been through a faith crisis?

2:21 Natasha Helfer Oh, well, I guess that could be its own podcast. I haven't even thought about that. Was it different for you?

2:29 John Dehlin No, I was just being silly. What were your favorite things about traveling?

2:36 Natasha Helfer Well, I love to travel. I love tasting new food. I love seeing new cities and sights. I love learning about the history and the people. One of our tour guides was actually willing to talk to me about sexuality. So I, like, Facebook lived our little conversation on some of my sex, you know, sex info type of Facebook pages. So that was totally fun.

3:00 John Dehlin Yeah, very nice. Well, we're glad you had a good time. And Margie and I are going to talk about our little event in just a second. But we had a great time as well. But thanks everyone for joining us. We have a great show planned for you today to begin. We want to, as always, begin with our mission and kind of our message. Margie, do you want to. Do you want to kick that off?

3:27 Margi Dehlin Sure. So our mission is to provide positive, practical and personal tips for navigating a Mormon faith crisis. It's Also for those wishing to understand those in faith crisis as well.

3:41 John Dehlin Yep. And our message is just that this is a huge gift. It can be a huge gift. It's going to feel painful and difficult at times excruciating, life ending, paradigm shattering. But what we also want you to understand is based on our experience with tens of thousands counseling tens of thousands of Mormons in faith crisis. By now, between the three of us, so many people find it a gift whether or not they stay in the church or leave the church. It can be a huge gift either way and helping you create a big beautiful life. Thanks for joining us. We want to remind everyone that this podcast is available on itunes, it's available on Facebook on our Mormon Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Facebook page, and it's available on YouTube. You can find us at any of those places. And I'm really happy to admit that we're climbing in our usage. We now have, we're now in the thousands of downloads and views between our multiple platforms and that means we're reaching a lot of people. So we want to give a shout out to all our listeners and I want to give a shout out to Margie and Natasha for helping us create great content.

4:55 Margi Dehlin We'll back at you, John. John Delyn.

4:59 John Dehlin Thank you. Okay, each of us are coaches in our day jobs. Natasha, why don't you tell us about your coaching practice really quick?

5:08 Natasha Helfer All right. Yeah, I run an online practice. I see people online and in office. You can find anything you want to about me professionally@Natashaparker.org so whether you want to see me professionally or see events I might be presenting at or things of that nature, that's where you can find out more about me.

5:26 John Dehlin And by the way, a shout out to Carly who's listening. Her name is spelled very Utahsh. It's K A R L Y E. I love it. Carly Kramer Risdon. She writes I love Natasha's voice and laugh. So Carly sending you her love.

5:45 Natasha Helfer That's so nice because I'm actually pretty self conscious about it because I do it a lot. But you guys make me laugh a lot. So it's kind of fun and I'm glad people like it. And it's not like super annoying and like hyena ish or something.

6:00 Margi Dehlin Not at all. It's like joy.

6:02 Natasha Helfer Yay.

6:05 John Dehlin Yeah. Margie, tell us about your practice.

6:09 Margi Dehlin Sure. So I am a certified life coach and I tend to see people that come for work around life transitions, so. And you can also visit me if you have any questions.

6:26 John Dehlin Beautyinthenow.org yeah, and Carly tells us that she's not from Utah.

6:33 Margi Dehlin Take that.

6:34 John Dehlin So that assumption that we made, that's

6:36 Margi Dehlin what happens when you box people.

6:41 John Dehlin And of course I also do a little bit of coaching. It's very limited, but you can find me at John Delyn@johndelin.com Private practice. I support couples, individuals in faith crisis or in building a healthy, happy life. So you can always reach us out. We have a massive announcement that we're really excited about. We now finally have dates and locations for our event schedule for 2019. It's taken us a bit to get these solidified but. But we're really, really excited to announce a series of events and here they are in February, February 13th, I'm doing a free evening for people in faith crisis. Again, that's 2-13-7 at 7:00 at Community of Christ Building. If any of you are in the Salt Lake area and want just a free two to three hour workshop, you can join us there. You'll be able to see more about that. All of These events on mormonfaithcrisis.com events we are going to be doing a workshop in Orem, Utah February 15th and 16th, the evening of the 15th and the 16th. You can register for that now at mormonfaithcrisis.com events and we're really excited to announce several other events. We're coming to Vegas, February 22nd, 23rd, Ogden, March 8th and 9th, we're doing a mixed faith retreat, hopefully April 12th, 14th in Salt Lake City. We're coming to Gilbert, Arizona, May 3rd through 5th, Park City, we're doing a retreat. We hope to have Natasha there July, sorry, June 7th through 9th and we hope that to be an amazing experience. I'm really excited to announce that Switzerland reached out, Europe reached out and really wanted us to have a retreat in Europe. So the Switzerland team pulled together a huge shout out to my friends there, especially Philip Giesler. We are going to have a retreat in Switzerland June 21st through 23rd for all of Europe. And it's super cheap. We've arranged food and lodging and the tuition for a super low price. So we're hoping that you guys can join us for those who are interested, especially those who are in Europe. And then we're going to do Colorado, August 9th through 11th, Southern California, September 20th through 22nd. We have an open date for October 4th through 6 that we need to plan. So any of you who really want to bring a retreat to where you are, we've still got one slot available. Maybe we'll do the Midwest, I don't know. And then me and Margie, Natasha are going to do another mixed faith retreat November 1st through 3rd. So those are all our events. We hope you'll join us. Check us out at mormonfaithcrisis.com events to learn more. And we're so excited to get back in the swing of things with these events. They're always rated super highly. They always, you know, we're told that they help people who are in crisis. They always get a 4.9 out of 5 rating. And we've just been told that marriages and lives have been saved from these events. So we hope you guys can spread the word and let people know and attend if you can. All right, we wanted to do a quick shout out. We have at least six new donors from the last time. So this podcast, we hope that it becomes sustainable. At a minimum, we want to make sure Natasha and Margie get paid for their participation in this podcast. I would sign up for that as well, but we need donors to do that and we have about 20 donors now. I'm going to read the names of five new donors. We have Toady or Toddy. I'm not sure how to pronounce that. Hilary, Patricia, Mark, Mehdi, and Lindsay. So shout out to our newest donors. They went to mormonfaithcrisis.com clicked on the donation button and sign up for a monthly donation. 10, 25, 50, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. Just know that you're not only going to be paying for good content for you, you'll also be paying for content that, you know, generations can enjoy to support them in what they're, what they need for a faith crisis. So thanks for those who are donating and for those who want to donate, we appreciate that as well. Christine just wrote in and said she'll be at the Vegas event. So that's super exciting, Christine, to know you'll be there. We hope a lot of you will join us at these events. So. Yeah. So let's go to our what's Working section. We want to invite our listeners. We have some people joining us right now through Facebook Live. We want to welcome them and we want to invite them to share right now something that's working for them in their lives. And we'll read it live over the air. But Margie, what's working for you right now in your post or post Faith crisis Life? What's working for you?

12:00 Margi Dehlin Sure. Well, I'm going to let you kind of tackle our fun. We had Together.

12:04 John Dehlin Okay.

12:05 Margi Dehlin So in returning home, something that's really working for me because I've had a little bit of a shock in temperature because it's freezing in Utah. Wasn't so freezing where we were hot baths at night. So just a night bath, my kind of nighttime ritual is something that's really working for me. So we kind of have a tub downstairs that's bigger and just filling her up, putting some magnesium salts, lavender in there and reading and zoning out for a little bit before bed. Just relaxing has been wonderful. And it just makes me warm before I go to bed, which is lovely since it's cold here. So that's something that's really working for me, helping me sleep better.

12:50 John Dehlin And I take a bath every night in Morgi's bathwater. And I love it. I don't mind you have the sweetest bathwater.

12:59 Margi Dehlin Hope you all enjoy that.

13:01 Natasha Helfer It's the way we conserve.

13:03 Margi Dehlin It's the way we conserve people.

13:09 John Dehlin For me, what's been working is taking my wife on an anniversary trip. We went to Mexico. We used frequent flyer miles from our time at Microsoft that we saved for over 14 years to pay for the trip. We went to Mexico. We stayed at the beach house of a dear friend, so grateful to that dear friend. And we were able to do a getaway where we had dinner and lunch and breakfast, beach walks, watch TV shows, bike rides, Jacuzzi, pool time, layout time. If you have not taken your significant other on an anniversary vacation, I highly recommend it to regenerate the spark and the love, to strengthen the relationships. It really was amazing. I don't recommend coming out to your partner as a non believer on an anniversary trip. However, that's something that people have written in before and said that they did. They chose an anniversary vacation as the time to come out to their spouse. I guess you could do that, but I don't recommend it. What do you think?

14:19 Margi Dehlin Do you know what else I loved about our trip? What is that we kind of picked a place and then we went deep in that place. We didn't actually try to see or see a ton of. So we got to know this little kind of village, kind of seaside, oceanside village called Punta Mita. And I really loved kind of, we got to make, you know, kind of familiar connections there. The grocery stores or places that we love to go or wherever it may be. It was really, really. I liked that aspect of it culturally just going deep. And so it was great relaxation and kind of.

14:57 John Dehlin Anyway, so our listener PJ has written in. She says, I agree, Margie she has baths with essential oils and Epsom salts.

15:05 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

15:06 John Dehlin So shout out to PG for what's working for her. PJ for what's working for her. Juliet. Hey, Juliet. She writes. Sounds like Natasha has been giving you some advice. I wonder what she means. Oh, because Natasha wants water. Oh, is that it? Oh, it's what? Tell us all about that, Natasha.

15:25 Natasha Helfer Guessing it's because you said you share her bath water, so. And I'm the sex lady. I'm guessing it has something to do with that. She can.

15:32 John Dehlin Is that something sexual?

15:34 Natasha Helfer It can be.

15:35 John Dehlin Okay.

15:37 Natasha Helfer Or at least sensual.

15:39 John Dehlin Sensual.

15:40 Margi Dehlin Sensual works.

15:42 John Dehlin Juliet also writes Cancun is a celestial kingdom, so we'll have to remember that. For those of you who are thinking about a vacation or anniversary trip, it sounds like Cancun or Punta Mita or Mexico is on the menu. But, Natasha, what's working for you?

15:59 Natasha Helfer So my thing is compression socks. Does that sound weird?

16:05 John Dehlin Tell us all about that.

16:07 Natasha Helfer Well, I've never used them before and I thought, you know, they kind of sound old lady ish. That's really judgmental of me. And I think they. I always kind of thought about varicose veins as a reason why people wear them. But on my trip to Thailand, I had a horrible time with my feet and my legs swelling, even though I stood up, even though I tried to drink lots of water. But it was a 17 hour flight. That's a long time to be kind of enclosed. So on my way back, I had bought compression socks on, you know, as a recommendation that somebody gave me. And it was a game changer. Was a game changer. And then I wrote like a thread about it and people started writing in all kinds of reasons why they use compression socks, like when they run and maybe they stand in their office too long during the workday or like, and I have plantar fasciitis issues. And I'm just thinking I'm just going to start wearing them more in general, not even just for travel. So compression socks on long flights, for sure.

17:10 John Dehlin Compression stocks. I love it.

17:12 Margi Dehlin I love little things like that where it makes a huge difference.

17:15 Natasha Helfer Well, because I was swollen for like three days in Thailand. I mean, it took me a long time to. And then on the way back I was fine. It was like nothing.

17:24 Margi Dehlin Wow, that's beautiful.

17:25 Natasha Helfer Yeah, it was great.

17:26 John Dehlin And as serendipity would have it, we have a podiatrist listening to us right now, it's Juliet Burke, and she says, as a podiatrist, I recommend 15 to 20 millimeter HG socks for flying.

17:40 Margi Dehlin Wow.

17:41 Natasha Helfer Wow. That's specific.

17:43 John Dehlin Yeah. Thank you, Juliet.

17:44 Margi Dehlin We appreciate it.

17:45 John Dehlin Juliet's gonna be attending our donor. We're having an Open Stories foundation ski day in a couple days and she, along with some others, are gonna be attending. So I get to meet Juliet soon, so. Hi, Juliet. Thanks for reaching out. PJ writes I am looking into getting a weighted blanket.

18:02 Margi Dehlin Ooh, us too. I'm looking into that too.

18:06 John Dehlin And she also says she enjoys great books to read. That's what's working for pj. So pj, shout out to you. Thanks for sharing what's working for you. And. Yeah, so. And Juliet's telling US that the HG is short for mercury, so 15 to 20 millimeter mercury socks for flying. That sounds high tech. Mercury socks.

18:30 Margi Dehlin It works.

18:31 John Dehlin You know, if it works, do it.

18:32 Margi Dehlin Brilliant. All right.

18:34 John Dehlin All right. So. We have sort of the conclusion of a bit of a multi part series for today. We talked in our first, most recent kind of episodes for January, we talked about the conversion process. Specifically, we talked about how oftentimes we think of our conversions as intellectual. But in reality, I tried to make the case through citing Jonathan Haidt, that religious conversion is usually an emotional experience that often has a familial component, a social component to can also have other spiritual components to it. But we talked about all the different ways that people get converted to religion. And we also talked about how that's a natural, healthy thing for many people. And yeah, so we covered that kind of in depth. What we wanted to talk about today is the deconversion process and how deconversion happens. Again, this podcast is not just for people who are experiencing a faith crisis. It's also for people who want to understand their loved ones who are going through a faith crisis. And so for all of that, to validate those who are going through it, to express the experiences of those going through it, and to provide support for those who are trying to understand. We want to talk about the deconversion process. So for any of our listeners who want to share just briefly in the comments, one paragraph, write up of their deconversion, how it happened, sort of beginning with the emotions, but then whether it was familial or social or intellectual, spiritual, we want to hear from you and we'll read a little bit about your deconversion on the air as we go through these different domains. So we invite you to do that and let's go ahead and just jump in. So the point that I felt is really important to make as we try and understand deconversion is that While many of us, Many of the people that we work with in our coaching practice and in our workshops and retreats, when they talk about their deconversion, they usually do it in a very. In a predictable way. They talk about, for example, well, someone shared with me the CES letter or, you know, and I started reading the CES letter and I lost my faith. Or somebody. I was Googling something and I found the MormonThink website, and I started reading about polygamy and lost my faith. Or, you know, I stumbled on podcasts and started listening. The truth is, I want to make the argument that deconversion is a little bit more complex than that. Jonathan Haidt, as we mentioned in the previous episodes, he compares the human brain to a rider on an elephant. And the cerebral frontal cortex, or the logical, rational brain, is like the human sitting on the elephant, but the elephant is likened unto your amygdala, your emotional center of your brain. And whenever the rider and the elephant are both startled or scared, Jonathan Haidt makes the argument that it's the elephant that wins, it's the emotional center that wins. And the basic argument he's making is that we oftentimes make our decisions emotionally, often subconsciously, without even full conscious awareness. And then we use logic or reason to justify the decisions that we arrived at emotionally. And what I'm trying to argue is that deconversion happens the same way, even if there is an intellectual or a logical or a historical trigger. What I've found for many, many people is that there was some sort of emotional, deep emotional trigger that either coincided with the intellectual trigger or that preceded it, that made the soil fertile for doubt. And so what I want to start with, for both you, Natasha, and you, Margie, is each of you to share, if you're willing, a little analysis of your deconversion from, let's just say, from Mormon fundamentalism or Mormon orthodoxy. Natasha will acknowledge that you are still attending LDS Church services and Margie and I are not. But the point here isn't to only talk about leaving Mormonism. It's really leaving kind of Fowler Stage 3, Mormon Orthodoxy or fundamentalism. That's what we mean when we talk about a faith crisis. So, Natasha, why don't you start and if you could do a little bit of an analysis and talk about whether you can relate to this idea of an emotional softening preceding any other sort of actual event that may have been the trigger. Is that something you relate to in your process?

24:16 Natasha Helfer Yeah, no, for sure. Absolutely.

24:18 John Dehlin Tell us a bit about that story.

24:20 Natasha Helfer Okay. And just to be. Because I think honesty is really important principle for a lot of Mormons. Want to be clear that I'm attending church sporadically. Okay. So not like on a weekly basis. I think those kinds of things matter in our culture. So.

24:36 John Dehlin All right, having said that, I think that's true for a lot of Mormons. The church only classifies activity as being once a month.

24:45 Natasha Helfer Yes, I'm probably active then anyway, fairly

24:50 Margi Dehlin active,

24:52 Natasha Helfer and I probably go even more often. Just that travel is a big part of my life anyway. So as far as this fertile ground that you're talking about that I think became a part of my emotional awareness was really, it really started in my work as a mental health practitioner, working primarily with Mormons. And some of my very first cases that I didn't feel that equipped, who, you know, to handle coming from my training was like a mixed orientation marriage or, you know, the gay single adult, you know, who's coming to me and telling me that he's not being successful in dating women, you know, and is having homosexual experiences in his lifestyle and how to manage that with his, you know, desire to be an active member of our church and doesn't want to disappoint his family. And I had several mixed faith situations even back then. You know, we're talking about like 20 years ago where, you know, one person is wanting to move away from the church and activity and the other person's in and kind of the distress that they were feeling as a couple. And then in my own kind of Mormonism being triggered, you know, in that space and setting, and women coming in with issues around, feeling dismissed, you know, within kind of this Mormon feminist narrative that I wasn't even that aware of. Like, I wouldn't have said that I was feeling dismissed. But all of a sudden they're bringing up these issues and it's making me think twice about some of the ways that I thought about those issues. Right. So all of these kind of imperfectionism. Oh, that was a big one. You know, so like all these wonderful, especially women diagnosed with depression, wonderful women serving in our church, you know, doing all of these amazing things and still feel pretty crappy about themselves. Like they just were never enough and pretty, you know, and realizing that some of the messages that they were telling me, you know, in session, because I was like, well, where are you getting this idea? Well, you know, so and so just said that we're supposed to be doing blahdy blahdi, blah blah. And I'm like, oh, that's where you're getting that idea. So right away, those first few years, I had a lot of opportunity to see my own religion through the eyes of lots of other people and how they were interpreting and incorporating principles or doctrines or ideas into their lives that wasn't necessarily very useful or helpful or beneficial. So then that started creating this cognitive dissonance within me, you know, where I was coming from a perspective where the gospel is always helpful and why wouldn't anybody be happy at church? And you know, church is always going to help people and there's even research to support that. Churchgoing people have better mental health and even better sex lives and all this stuff. So I came from some of that. You know, it's interesting that when you're going through training, you listen to the things that already correlate with your beliefs, but now all of a sudden the people in my room weren't necessarily correlating with my beliefs.

28:03 John Dehlin And how did that affect your testimony? Like so let's just say. And by the way, I want to refer our listeners to Mormon stories. Podc. I did a really in depth, wonderful interview. It's definitely one of the top, I don't know, 25, 30 interviews of all time on Mormon stories, which is saying a lot because we have over a thousand hours of interviews. But Natasha's story is epic and it's really worth checking out. But just to do a shortened version, Natasha, just to play devil's advocate, what does a bunch of therapy clients struggling to fit in their Mormon experience have to do with your testimony? How did that affect you?

28:42 Natasha Helfer Well, because it started not fitting my view of Mormonism, which is this idea that of course Mormonism, the gospel, is going to help everybody improve their lives. Right? That's a very basic kind of foundational narrative that I was coming from. And now I was starting to see how actually some of these things weren't benefiting people's lives and in fact making it worse. And then, and only then, it's really interesting. And if you listen to my story, you start understanding how I also had been hurt by a lot of narratives in the church, but I was not necessarily in a space to recognize that or to own that or to even see it. Like I was still in that space that if the hurts that I had experienced in the church were my fault, I was self blaming. They couldn't be the gospel's fault, right, or the church's fault. Because the church or the gospel or however, I mean, I know those are two kind of different things, but they're perfect, they're correct, they're Right. So if there's any problems in my life, they have to do with me. So as I was working with people and starting to go, hey, wait a minute, some of these things are not very helpful and actually can hurt people, it started opening up some space for me to be able to see how also some of the church rhetoric had harmed me earlier in my life, specifically with issues of sexuality, issues of fitting in, issues of being worthy enough. You know, all of those kinds of things that I had struggled with as a teenager and as a young adult and how it affected my marriage and my self identity and all that stuff. But I wasn't able to really look at that part of my life until other stories kind of started making me question. So me becoming an advocate for other people is what eventually helped me become an advocate for myself.

30:40 John Dehlin Is there anything uniquely Mormon you think about? The fact that you were more oriented towards the needs and concerns of others than yourself, or do you think that's just a human thing?

30:51 Natasha Helfer Well, I think it's a woman thing, and I definitely think it's a Mormon woman thing. Like, I think it's a Mormon woman thing on steroids. But it's a. It's a woman thing because I think in general, women, at least in the culture, in the Christian culture, which is pervasive in the United States and other cultures, are taught to self sacrifice for the system that they're a part of, whether that's their family, their marriage, their kids. And so, you know, I see those themes, those themes of self sacrifice and women being unhappy with those kinds of messages in lots of different cultural contexts. It's not just Mormonism. I think Mormonism has. Has that a little bit on steroids.

31:38 John Dehlin Yeah. Okay. And so as you started feeling sympathy for all these people who are struggling, that softened you up to start looking at your own experience. And then how does that, how does that happen? Do you remember that first time where you asked yourself, wait a minute, is it possible that this isn't true or this isn't what I thought it was? Do you kind of. Do you remember it culminating into that sort of moment for you?

32:09 Natasha Helfer Yeah, both in my conversion and in my deconversion, I never had the moment like I never had the Moroni moment. So I think for me, it's hard to pinpoint one specific day or moment or thought process. I think it just really was little by little and, you know, asking myself questions and then kind of pulling away from the questions and then reinserting myself into the questions. And plus, you know, when you're training when it's, when it's, when it's caught up in your professional life as a therapist, for me, anyway, I could. I could kind of separate things a little bit. Like, I could go to a professional training where they would say something that would challenge my faith and I could be like, yeah, I can see that. I can get that. I can accept that. I can, like, separate my faith and my testimony from this professional concept that maybe is more applicable to the population at large. So it was easy for me to always kind of almost separate my own personal stuff from my professional life for a long time. So little by little, that started kind of grading away as well. And so it really, you know, I still think I'm in faith transition. And it's been a long process for me and it continues to be. And that used to frustrate me, and now I'm actually kind of. I just, I'm accepting and glad that it's been very long and slow. And I don't see myself as going really away from. I see myself as becoming more spiritually integrated.

33:48 John Dehlin I love it. And yeah, a lot of people don't even like the term faith crisis. They want to call it a faith awakening or a truth awakening. And I love that framing. We have to pick some words. So we pick faith crisis, because that's what a lot of people.

34:00 Natasha Helfer Well, and I think that there are aspects of it that feel like a crisis, which we've been talking about, you know, because it does make you look at your whole life, your identity, your relationship. So even though I would say I'm still in the process, I wouldn't say that there haven't been times where it hasn't felt great crisis, like, yeah, for sure.

34:19 John Dehlin And just really quickly, Natasha, if there wasn't this moment where you feel like you lost your faith. And I agree it's always a gradual process that happens over years. I'm still peeling back layers of the onion and building new layers. Was there, Was there a moment where you're like, okay, things are different now, where it's like, I'm different. I'm different than the people around me. I'm going to have to start engaging my leadership and my ward or my family differently. Things have changed in a significant way. Can you think back to kind of a season when you had that sort of awareness or awakening?

35:02 Natasha Helfer Yeah, I think that there's been several times when that's happened. I mean, one of them was writing my first blog where I spoke about the dangers of sinophizing masturbation. It Took me like a week to press post on that blog because it was going to be the first time that I really probably publicly stated something that was in opposition to the church.

35:23 John Dehlin That had to have been the first time in history that a Mormon therapist came out in favor of masturbation on the Internet. Right?

35:31 Natasha Helfer I guess. I don't know. It was a very big moment for me.

35:35 John Dehlin Yeah, it was big for me. And I'm a little old guy in Logan, Utah at the time,

35:41 Margi Dehlin but, you

35:42 Natasha Helfer know, having so many of my really wonderful Mormon teenagers in my office cutting themselves and suicidal over masturbation was too much. I couldn't. I felt unethical, not taking a stance. So that was a moment where I had to make a decision that my relationship probably with the church was going to change. I was afraid I might get disciplined, and I wasn't. So that was good formally anyway, but I was definitely castigated professionally. And, you know, there was lots of changes started happening at that point when I took that stance as far as how I was treated in my local community. The next point was when my daughter, you know, was released as Miami president because of her beliefs around, you know, her belief that gay marriage was a civil right and also her belief that churches in general would do better with female ordination. So those were beliefs that she had. She wasn't touting them at church per se, but because she had social media posts that, you know, she was kind of released from that calling. And that changed our whole trajectory as a family because now, you know, I'm placed in a position as a mother where my church community can no longer allow my daughter to have leadership ability in a place where, you know, her relationship with God is supposed to flourish. So that was very traumatic and difficult for me. And then another one I can think of just off the top of my head, was the November 5th policy, you know, with so many of the gay and lesbian clients that I've had and families that were directly affected, clients of mine that were directly affected by that policy, co parenting relationships that were, you know, really tense because of that. You know, people who had been co parenting well, but now because of this policy, were having to renegotiate their co parenting and divorce situations. And several of my lesbian and gay married people getting excommunicated or disciplined, that was just cruel and awful. And having so many people sobbing in my office for what I thought was completely unnecessary, unchristlike tragedy was just devastating

38:00 John Dehlin for me and for you, if there were, let's just say that your awakening could be reflected through statements And I gave one like, oh, for some, it's the church isn't true. What would be some of the statements that would reflect or characterize your deconversion or your awakening? Can you name a few of them? Did dwenny come to mind?

38:27 Natasha Helfer I'm not sure exactly what you mean by. I guess the thing that's coming to my mind is for me, it's not that the church is true or not the church isn't acting true.

38:35 John Dehlin Okay, that's one. The church is not acting true. What do you mean by that?

38:38 Natasha Helfer The church is not acting like what it preaches. We're, you know, we're ostracizing people, we're disciplining people. We're, you know, if you look at the wonderful messages of Christ and especially in the New Testament, it's all about come unto me. It's all about non judgments. Don't throw the stones. Right. And yet we are in very punitive, disciplinary worthiness measurement type of scenario where people who smoke or who struggle with any issue are going to feel less welcome in our settings. Because at some level, if you're not adhering to all these behavioral standards, then people get released from callings or can't go to the temple or so these things become like public. So personal worship and personal development issues become kind of publicly, even. Even if they want to say it's confidential. As soon as people know that somebody isn't passing the sacrament or it doesn't have a calling, like it's a red flag that they don't fit in. So there's these public kind of subtle ways that people are ostracized on a regular basis just in the act of trying to worship in our church. So that did not fly. Plus, you know, we've been, we've been wrong on pretty much every social issue in the past, and we're not learning from that moving forward. So we've been about 10 to 15 years behind on racial issues, 10 to 15 issues behind on women's issues. And like, if we're the true church, we should be ahead of the time, not behind the time. Right. And there are churches that are ahead of the time who are advocating for social justice change. So that became, you know, not an issue of faith for me, but almost like an advocacy of my faith that my church isn't practicing the faith I've been taught to believe in.

40:32 John Dehlin Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. All right, well, we're going to. Margie and I are each going to share our experiences as well. But some of you as listeners are are gratefully writing in a little bit about your deconversion. So we're going to sprinkle those in as we go. Christine, we're grateful for your participation today. Christine writes, I didn't come to find out it wasn't true. Like most I hear of, she writes, I struggled with my morals, not lining up with the church most of my life, until one day I realized my love for others had grown to a point I couldn't condone certain beliefs. So I'm guessing she was. You know, I won't guess, but she writes, I didn't know if the church was true or not, but I knew even if it was, I didn't want to be a part of it. After I came to believe it wasn't true, which was a relief to know God wasn't necessarily someone that judged people. I didn't. I also still attend church with my family. Okay, so she's still attending, but for her, her beliefs around spirituality and what God is like evolved to the point where they just didn't match what the church was teaching about God. And I think that's really common. So, Christine, that you did, too. So thanks for sharing, Christine. A few others have shared. We'll read yours as well as the session goes. If any else of you want to share a little blurb about your deconversion, if you've had one, we'd love to hear it. So, for me, I often talk about the impetus to my faith crisis being that of being called as a seminary teacher when I worked for Microsoft and around 2000, 2001, studying church history in depth and losing my faith. But I think. And Margaret, I'm curious if you would agree with. I think it started much earlier than that. Is that true?

42:31 Margi Dehlin I already agree.

42:32 John Dehlin Why are you nodding?

42:33 Margi Dehlin I already agree.

42:35 John Dehlin I was a faithful, righteous priesthood holder when we got married, wasn't I?

42:39 Margi Dehlin That's not what I mean.

42:40 John Dehlin What do you mean?

42:42 Margi Dehlin Just that when we met, one of the first things you kind of shared with me in vulnerability was the letter that you wrote to Oakes and your experience with your mission and feeling on some level like there was some integrity amiss in that situation. And clearly they. If you spelled it out, that something would be done, and you just had to go high enough and sharing that letter with me. And I think at that point, you already. Things were kind of shifting with regard to that. So that's what I mean.

43:13 John Dehlin Yeah. Yeah. So if I'm going way, way, way back, I think the first chip in my faith crisis was my parents getting divorced. Because when you're really bought and sold on this eternal marriage thing, and then all of a sudden your parents are getting divorced and remarried and resealed, you know, a couple things happen. One is all of a sudden you wonder how the plan of salvation fits you. If it's all about eternal families and it's all about returning with your family. And all of a sudden you don't know who you're sealed to anymore. As a kid, you. You don't know what that family is going to be like when their stepparents there and other people's kids. You know, that becomes a sad heaven, becomes a sad heaven all of a sudden instead of a happy heaven. So that was a thing. But also, not only did it cause me to be sad about wondering what heaven would be like, it made me sensitive to people for whom the plan of salvation didn't fit. Because, you know, here I was struggling with a broken family, and then all of a sudden I'm like, well, what about anyone else that I wonder if there are other people who also feel like they don't fit or the gospel doesn't fit for them. That was something that really stayed with me emotionally and probably caused me to question more. And so even though I was devout through high school and served a mission and was really orthodox and obeyed all the commandments that, you know, in a really orthodox way, I think it made me think a little bit out of the box and have a little bit of sympathy for marginalized groups and that then, Margie, as you mentioned, on my mission, you can read about this, the very first Mormon Stories podcast episode. I tell my mission story, but long story short, I had a corrupt mission with what felt like to me a spiritually corrupt mission president where they were baptizing 750 people a month. Some missionary companionships were baptizing 40amonth. And they were basically just going out to a field, recruiting little 89789 year olds who were super poor, taking them back to church when they were hot, and baptizing them in a baptismal font ten at a time without ever having attended church without parental permission, without any testimonies. Just fill in the sheets so that you could make the numbers. And these companionships were getting 40, 50amonth. And then they became zone leaders and they became assistants to the president. And like you said, Margie, that was really traumatic for me. And the mission president supported this behavior. So I confronted the mission president and he yelled at me. And it was the first time I had really experienced ecclesiastical abuse. And I Don't know if a man experiences like a woman does. But when your priesthood leader is yelling at you, saying, never question us. How dare you question us. Don't ever question us again, it leaves this dark mark inside of you, especially when you feel like you're doing right and you're fighting for something God and Jesus would support. And so when I got home from my mission and I wrote Elder Oaks and I wrote Church Headquarters to let them know about this, and the answer I got was, well, your mission president's almost done with this. Three years. We don't want to cause a big stink. We're going to just kind of let it go. That was really troubling for me. And it was the first time I wondered whether the church was rotting from the head, not from the feet. And, of course, I didn't lose my testimony then either. I still attended byu. I got married at the temple, still consider myself very faithful. But it was this emotional jolt that not only did I now have sympathies for people for whom the church didn't fit, I also had deep sympathies and concern that the church leadership could not only not be perfect, but could be corrupt. And, of course, I covered that in, you know, well, the church is perfect, but the leaders aren't or the members aren't. And that carried me another five, 10 years into a temple marriage and four kids and faithful participation in wards. But that really softened me up. And I think, Mark, you'd agree, even though I behaved in an orthodox way and didn't drink and didn't drink tea or coffee or, you know, there was this kind of. There was a bit of a troubled soul about me. Is that fair to say?

47:45 Margi Dehlin I would probably say you had a little inner rumbling at times.

47:51 John Dehlin Yeah.

47:52 Margi Dehlin It wasn't always apparent, but it did come out from time to time.

47:56 John Dehlin But still Orthodox, would you say?

47:57 Margi Dehlin Yeah, I think you were still like, think back to General Conference. And who was the one that was like, the kids are sitting.

48:03 John Dehlin And so I think every General conference we had, everyone had to sit through all hours of all General Conferences, every General Conference weekend. I'm like, sit down and watch General Conference everywhere. All gonna watch the whole. Take notes, everybody. And my kids are like, oh, my

48:19 Natasha Helfer gosh, this is cracking me up. I can totally see this, can't you? But I want to say really quickly, because I know this is a total tangent, but ecclesiastical abuse of males in our church is real, and I've had so many clients in my office talking about that, and I think it's Something we. We don't ever talk about. So now I'm thinking I need to do a Mormon mental health podcast on that. Sorry. I want to validate you, John.

48:46 John Dehlin Thank you. Yeah. And a shout out to Mormon mental health podcast. It had a Great year in 2018. Grew in downloads and in support and donations. Check out Mormon mental health podcast. Natasha runs it. It's a great thing and she deserves support. So. Yeah. So I think. I think all that is what softened me for that time where I was called as a seminary teacher. And then I wanted to study church history in depth. So I started studying several church books. And then I learned about the Book of Abraham and the Papyrus and how it wasn't a translation from Joseph Smith like we thought, which then led me to learn about polygamy, which then led me to learn about polyandry, which then led me to learn about Book of Mormon historical problems. And that's kind of when I went down the rabbit hole around 2001. And then it become very much an intellectual awakening, but it definitely began as an emotional one. That was sort of this chronic low burn of discomfort for a couple decades. And I'll also add that when I learned about the suicide of Stuart Mattis In 2000, this young gay returned missionary who drove himself up to the steps of his Mormon stake center, pinned a note to his chest that said, do not resuscitate, and then shot himself on the steps of the church stake center. I learned about that while I was an employee at Microsoft around 2000. And that became, oh, my gosh, there's another marginalized group. Not just divorced people, but LGBT people. That became my next awakening. And of course, later I became more sensitive to feminism and people of color. I mean, the black priesthood band always bothered me, but I didn't understand racism and sexist systemic racism and sexism and homophobia until I started Mormon stories. But that's how my faith Christ. And for me, it was very much, the church isn't true. Oh, my gosh. I thought this was God's one true church on the earth. I thought that God's prophet, you know, Benson or Gordon B. Hinckley was God's prophet. This is the one true church. And they would never lie to me. They would never hurt me. They would never deceive anyone. For me, that's what the main verbal narrative was. Oh, my gosh, what if the church isn't true? I think the church may not be true, or I think the church may not be what it claims to be. And I do remember just A very specific day where for the very first time, in spite of all the problems I had been collecting all the elements on my shelf, I'd never been able to really seriously ask myself to consider the possibility that it wasn't true. And that's what hit me. And that's when I came to Margi. And so that was kind of my awakening and how it happened. Very much emotional before it was intellectual. Let's go ahead and read another narrative from our listeners. Do you want to read this, Margie, from pj?

52:06 Margi Dehlin Sure.

52:07 John Dehlin Okay.

52:08 Margi Dehlin For me, it was all three. From some of the teachings that would not sit right, like the only true church, to when my husband was in the hospital with possible heart issues, realizing if he passed away, I could not get remarried in the temple. And then some personal bad treatment from members, my health going downhill, dealing with a chronic illness and struggling to go to church, also taking care of two special needs kids to eventually my second daughter coming out as bisexual. That is when I left for good.

52:37 John Dehlin Thank you, pj, for sharing something so personal. And yes, she runs the gamut from emotional issues, personal health and well being family members whose health and well being might be challenged to feminist issues around how maybe she hadn't have been prepared and how because she was a woman, she couldn't remarry in the temple, whereas men can remarry in the temple after. After a spouse passes away. Thank you, pj, for sharing. Others, if you want to share, we'd love to read your narratives. Margie, what was it like for you? How would you describe your deconversion from Mormon orthodoxy?

53:24 Margi Dehlin Yeah, that's kind of tough for me. I kind of feel like on a level, my nest of how I grew up was a little bit of a, you know, that emotional preparing. I don't know if you'd agree with that, but with my dad being a psychiatrist and a lot of emphasis in our home on, you know, what makes people act the way they do and how minds work. And I think as well as being a convert and growing up, you talked about kind of feeling on the outside once your family, you know, once your parents got divorced. For me, I had relatives and really good friends and my life was filled with all these wonderful people that on some level I had to conceive, weren't gonna make it or weren't gonna. And it just never really clicked.

54:15 John Dehlin To the celestial kingdom.

54:15 Margi Dehlin To the celestial kingdom.

54:17 John Dehlin Even if for you it hadn't even occurred that they could have been taught in the spirit world and accepted the

54:22 Margi Dehlin gospel, you know, none of that really. And that's why. And then you lay on top of that, that I was not really. My testimony was very much the lived testimony. I wasn't highly doctrinal or in the way I think my testimony was made. It was very much kind of a lived experience. I think all of that kind of contributed a bit to a nest of, you know, a little bit of a distance, if you will, from. From my. In my relationship with the church. That allowed it for me. For me to kind of see things in from many angles and a little bit. I don't know, that's kind of how I would think about it. Is that what you're asking? That's kind of the emotional nest where I came into it.

55:10 John Dehlin Okay.

55:11 Margi Dehlin And then from there, I'm just a highly relationship person. So to have Scott, my cousin, who's really. I'm really close to. I grew up with him, he's one of the best people I know, come out to me and see the pain and suffering in his life as gay, as gay, that I. That was one thing that I think really made me feel in an instant really different about things. I think also your and my relationship with authority. Both of us had an experience with a type of authority figure within the paradigm of the church kind of structure that made me really sensitive about that. That made me less obedience minded, I think, than I would have been so. And then, of course, you came to me. That was one of the first kind of things, was here's this person that I really love and I really respect, who is. I've seen struggling, I've seen really wrestle with things and speaking really vulnerably about, you know, the things that you had learned up to that point. I think all of those things came together in a manner like a perfect storm that allowed for me to pull away and then slowly kind of break down and rebuild to a point that I was no longer able to have an experience within the church that felt true to me anymore.

56:43 John Dehlin What was it? What do you remember feeling when I sat you down and said, do you remember the words I used and how you heard it and how it felt when I came to you about my doubts?

56:56 Margi Dehlin Yeah, well, I remember feeling.

56:58 John Dehlin What do you remember? Tell that story. I want to hear it.

56:59 Margi Dehlin You want to hear. So the way I remember it was that you waited until we had put our kids to bed. You pulled me into our room, you sat down, you were shaking, your voice was shaking, which is kind of a rare. It's a rare thing for you. And you said, I have something I Want to tell you. And right there I pretty much like panicked and felt like this most likely is like this may be a moment where my life is no longer the same. And then I remember you really having a lot of emotions saying, know that you have noticed that I haven't been myself and I've been reading things and you know, here are some of the things that I've been reading. And what I've come to is I really. I don't believe that the church is what it says it is. I don't think it is true. And I remember crying. I just immediately started crying.

58:01 John Dehlin What went through your mind?

58:04 Margi Dehlin Oh, like, and even when with my fears that I. And on my Mormon story, I tell you about the fears that immediately came up for me, which is my marriage is not gonna last death and it affecting my children in some way down the line in a way that was really gonna be sad for them. It went right to all my relationships, I think, and it went right to that sort of stability and structure that I now I'm highly aware in my personality that I. That I appreciate and love. And I just really felt completely in an instant like very, very vulnerable. Like I compare it to like a snail without a shell. In an instant you just feel extremely exposed and in full on panic mode.

58:56 John Dehlin Yeah, well, sorry I did that to you.

59:01 Margi Dehlin Oh, you know, no need to apologize because that's the whole point, I think, of where we are today and why we're here and sitting here.

59:12 John Dehlin And then what did you do for your own deconversion? I shared with you what I read. But did you have steps to go after that to kind of come to your own conclusions?

59:24 Margi Dehlin Yeah, and I think, I think I was quite holistic about it. I did some intellectual, like all the things that we talk about as sort of the. The tenets to deconversion, whether it's familial or the intellectual or the social. I feel like I had a very holistic process. So I read Fawn Brodie. I did some intellectual kind of. But I also, you know, dove into some Buddhism. I practiced yoga, I studied, started building it within myself. Principles that made me. That made sense to me, that resonated to me and that was really, really helpful. And inevitably I would say that's the thing that then played out when I went to church. Over time, I'd say, wait, I. This is actually not reflecting who I am anymore. My experience now is not, you know, reflecting what I value and the way I want to live and how I want to love and walk in the world.

1:00:22 John Dehlin Right. Natasha, anything you want to share as a reflection on what you've heard?

1:00:26 Natasha Helfer I just, you know, I did have a reaction when you said, sorry that I did that to you, which, I mean, I kind of get, you know, And I think that this is the position that a lot of spouses are in. It's like, first of all, believing spouse, oftentimes it's dealing with a transitioning spouse can feel like, I didn't ask for this.

1:00:46 Margi Dehlin Right.

1:00:47 Natasha Helfer Like, you did do this to me. And at the same time, I think it's not that we're doing something to each other, it's that you chose to show up. You chose to show up honestly with your wife. And if that's doing something to you, well, then that's marriage. Right. And we have to understand, I think, and we don't really talk about this very much, I think, in the premarital expectations, that if you're going to spend these days, hopefully with life expectancy being what it is, 50 to 60 years, if you get married in your 20s and you're going to stay with this one person, you're going to spend probably 50 to 60 years. And if you think that you're not going to change in some way or that there's going to be some significant developmental process that you both go through that space of time, I think it's really unfortunate that we have this idea that we're doing. We're doing change to each other. I'm like, no, we just change. And then hopefully we show up in that change and be present for one another as we do. That was the only little thing that I wanted to just. Oh, John,

1:02:01 Margi Dehlin can I say something about that, too? Do we believe this is a gift or don't we? Because then we can turn that right around. And I can say I really can appreciate where we are, and it really feels good to us. And so that is part of the gift. You were, on a level, the giver, the initial giver of the gift. And just one other thing is sometimes gifts don't feel good in the moment. Right. Like, we oftentimes in our brains think of good equals, you know, good feelings, pleasure, you know that. And that's just not quite how life works, that some of the best things that John and I have experienced that have allowed for us to grow and now experience joy were, at least initially, and I would say largely painful to kind of come to. And that is just kind of the reality of it. So, you know, goodness can come from sadness and, you know, some suffering initially.

1:03:02 John Dehlin Well, you're welcome, then.

1:03:06 Natasha Helfer Well, we have so many, like, cultural cliches like no pain, no gain, you know, or, like, whether it's Mormon or just general culture, I think there's an understanding that things that are worthwhile usually require painful processes to get through. And I think long term marriage, where you really have intimacy intact, is something that's ongoingly developing. And with two individuals who are changing and it is hard and there is going to be pain. That pain is real. And yet, you know, at least for now, the two of you have persevered through that. And you said at least for now, because I'm not in any way a fortune teller.

1:03:54 Margi Dehlin And how how do we live, John,

1:03:56 John Dehlin day by day,

1:03:59 Margi Dehlin like marriage? We say I do in every moment, Every day, every day, every moment.

Episode 10

0:21 John Dehlin All right, beautiful. So, Lisa. Linda writes, yes, it's a tremendous gift. So thank you, Linda.

0:28 Margi Dehlin Linda's agreeing that this faith crisis can be a huge gift. That's why we named the podcast that Way.

0:35 John Dehlin Also. Let's see. Linda writes, I relate to what John just said about his faith journey. Looking back over my own life, there were signs of a shift in my faith long before I awoke to the history. It's amazing to reflect on it now. There were so many times I simply refused to see what was happening until I was ready to truly hear the truth. That's really interesting, Linda. And what I want to do is just go through a lot of these comments being written, talk about each one, and I'm feeling the desire to say to Linda, it's okay that it took time. Like religion, I'm a believer. And some of our listeners may not like this or agree with it. I'm a believer that religion is a fundamentally positive influence in people's lives, or we would have evolved away from it and the Catholic Church wouldn't exist. If there's any ever a testament to the fact that religion must do good in people's lives, it's that the Catholic Church still exists after decades of systemic pedophilia scandals. Religion must thrive in spite of all the awareness and problems because it's meeting people's social and spiritual and familial and identity and existential needs. And so because it becomes such a big part of our lives, it's probably not something that we should rush to jettison. And so for many of us, we can think about years and years and years where we had reason to doubt or question, but we hung on, what if that's you knowing what's best for you and what your needs are and in your own situation. At the time, Linda, it took many years because it was still meeting some fundamental core needs for you, familially, socially, spiritually, practically, health wise, whatever it is. I just wonder sometimes if it takes long because it should take long for many people. And it's not something that should be rushed into or thrown away lightly. Now, how do either of you feel? That might be a controversial statement. What do you guys think? Any Natasha or Margie, I'm clearly gonna

2:51 Margi Dehlin say it's different for everyone.

2:52 John Dehlin Okay.

2:53 Margi Dehlin We can say that the way they choose to navigate or because we know people who have done it really, really quickly, and it's been great for them to do that. And on a level, you know, they rearrange their lives, you know, and so I think honor yourself in your process, go internal with it. And I love that quote you say about how. Remind me, it's the level of comfort versus discomfort. And when it tips to, you know, you primarily have a lot of agitation and a high level of discomfort with activity versus then that's kind of when people make the change, is when the balances are tipped. And so oftentimes that's a very organic, you know, part of the process.

3:40 John Dehlin I tend to think it's very mathematical that if. If I could do one research project in my life academically, I would. I would create a formula for all the different variables that impact religious faithfulness, family, social, financial, spiritual, mental and physical health, temporal needs, longevity in the church, your parents, your grandparents, social pressures, family pressures, awareness and knowledge about the church and its history and its problems. Whether or not you've experienced ecclesiastical abuse, whether or not you're one of the discriminating minorities or have a lot of privilege. Plug all these into a formula. I do think it could be reduced ultimately to something very mathematical, which is joy outweighs pain and suffering and discomfort. Stay a member, stay active. You will likely stay active. Once pain, discomfort, problems outweigh what it gives you, it becomes a very rational decision where you leave it because it's causing you more pain and damage than good. Do you want to jump in, Natasha?

4:53 Margi Dehlin I'll throw it to Natasha.

4:55 Natasha Helfer Yeah. I think that the more common experience is that people take a long time because of all these issues. At the same time, to Margie's point, there are people that, you know, within a week or three weeks have made very stark decisions and, you know, leave and. But I think that's less common because I think even. Even. Even the person. Even though the personal process is long, sometimes the familial process is long. So even though maybe people have checked out intellectually or as a believer, they. They don't want to rock the boat too much. They're still maybe attending church to benefit, you know, other people in their system, etc. So it is kind of complex, but I don't think it's controversial to say that religious systems are of use to the human population. And like I said earlier, there is a lot of research to support that. Religious communities can be very helpful, especially when you feel like you fit in and you feel like it's a space that you thrive in, you know, so it does. It does offer a lot of community, a lot of structure, a lot of. There's lots of reasons. And at the same time, like most systems, there's potential for harm and for abuse. And that's because humans are involved. There's always going to be that potential. So I don't think that's a controversial statement, John. I would agree with that. I think it's helpful. And somebody even mentioned in one of the comments that Christine says, that's a good thought to have for believing family members as well, to avoid judging. So for us to remember that spaces have different meanings and constructs for people.

6:34 John Dehlin I love it. Okay, so now we've identified some domains. Family, social, intellectual, educational, existential, and behavioral. And there's others. What we're now doing is we're trying to look at deconversion from those lenses and the ways that those different domains impact deconversion. So I'm just going to read through some of these narratives that our listeners, our live listeners have written, and let's just respond to them.

7:04 Margi Dehlin Is that okay?

7:05 John Dehlin And highlight which domains, and maybe they're domains we haven't talked about. We'll highlight some of these domains as we read through these narratives. So. And we can take turns reading. I'll read Weston. Weston writes, I agree that you need fertile ground emotionally to even be open to a critical analysis of your belief system. This mirrors my experience. By the way, thanks for bringing up Fowler's Stages. That is very interesting as it relates to Mormon faith crises. I'd love to hear more. Well, Weston, in my early, early first Year of Mormon Stories podcast, I did an interview with Dan Witherspoon and Tom Kimball on the stages of faith. James Fowler was a famous psychologist in, I don't know, let's just say the middle 20th century. I could have my error wrong, but he basically followed a lot of the developmental psychologists who tried to look at life as being a process of advancing through various stages. And so while other psychologists were studying other aspects of living, he noticed that the belief paradigm started out as sort of an infant stage, which we can call stage one, kind of this childlike phase, which we can call stage two. And then you often settle as a religious believer into the stage three, which is, I'll just call it Mormon orthodoxy or fundamentalism, where you literally believe the Bible is written by the finger of God, that the Book of Mormon is historical, that the Mormon prophet speaks to God literally, that the church is perfect and you obey perfectly, blah, blah, blah. Stage four becomes having what they call the dark night of the soul, which is where your faith crisis happens. You let all your beliefs fall to the ground. You start to doubt and question everything, and you start to look at every little piece of Your faith, it's a very natural thing that transcends Mormonism. It's very common. Let's just call it maturing faith. It happens. And then if you continue, you can emerge on the other side with a stage five like faith, which would be taking scriptures as myth, taking religious stories as symbolic truth, not as literal truth. Looking at the world as a multicolor spectrum instead of as black and white, instead of just black and white stages of gray or multicolor. Viewing your church as good and bad, not necessarily in terms of a binary true false model, but just as in good, but also problematic. And engaging in the church, not because it's going to get you to heaven or because it's God's one true church, but it's because it's your tribe or it's your culture or because it provides value and structure and. Yeah, and making your religion your own. Becoming a proud buffet or cafeteria Catholic or Mormon and engaging religion on your own terms instead of on very fundamentalist, orthodox terms. And then I think there's the stage six, which is like Gandhi or Jesus or Martin Luther King Jr. I think you end up getting killed because you're so awesome.

10:27 Natasha Helfer Oh, no, I don't know.

10:28 John Dehlin I don't know that any of us are gonna aspire to stage six.

10:31 Margi Dehlin It's not very enticing,

10:34 John Dehlin but that's a. But if any of you want to know more, just Google Mormon stories Stages of faith. And I think we did an early episode with Dan and Tom and then we came back and interviewed Dan and Tom much later. By that point, Tom had left the church, but Dan had stayed in the church. And those are really classic Mormon stories episodes. And I think you can find lots of other discussions of valor stages of faith on the Internet, but it's worth checking out. So, Weston, thanks for mentioning it, PJ. Margie, why don't you read PJ's comment here? And then, Natasha, if you can see we're just going through these comments, we'll just rotate and we'll have you read the next one.

11:15 Margi Dehlin So, yes, like losing community, friends, that for me, has been hard.

11:20 John Dehlin Okay, so PJ's talking about one of the hard parts about a faith crisis is losing community and friends. And absolutely, that's one of the most devastating.

11:30 Natasha Helfer I'm not exactly sure where you're at, but Ali Payne says for me, it was the church doesn't want people like me. So to me, that's a social construct. Right. So if that means that either she was on the orientation spectrum, that's not just plain Heterosexual. Or maybe she's a feminist or a

11:50 John Dehlin Democrat, for heaven's sake.

11:51 Natasha Helfer A Democrat. Whatever. Whatever.

11:53 John Dehlin Divorce. A divorced person, a single person. Right.

11:57 Natasha Helfer Didn't feel like she fit the norm and therefore wasn't really validated in her life experience. So that's a social construct.

12:05 John Dehlin Absolutely. And that's very, very common. People just feel like they don't fit anymore.

12:10 Margi Dehlin Mm.

12:12 John Dehlin All right, Tamara. I'll read Tamara's. Tamara writes, I felt punished by the doctrine when I divorced my husband. After I spent three years trying to make a mixed orientation marriage work and coming to terms with the fact that the gospel couldn't make my ex husband straight, I felt my eternal family yanked out from me. Natasha, you've counseled a lot of mixed orientation marriage couples as I have. What do you see as that sometimes being a trigger for deconversion?

12:42 Natasha Helfer Well, it's so much a part, I think, of both familial and social aspects. It's just so ingrained in, like, the whole expectation of how life is supposed to go and definitely identity issues. Oftentimes the gay or lesbian member or bisexual member is feeling like they've been promised by the church that if they marry heterosexually or do the right things, that this problem will go away. So it's one of these things where just the religious, I guess, narrative has had some very uninformed perspectives that then really creates this life trajectory for everybody involved. You know, the LGBTQ person, the spouse, the children born into these marriages. And it's just really, really devastating on both familial and social level. And I would even say going into the existential, you know, because they're waiting for these kind of miracles to happen where these issues will just go away due to obedience, and that doesn't end up being the case.

13:55 John Dehlin Yeah, it is so good the church has moved away from at least explicitly encouraging mixed orientation marriages. They still indirectly encourage it when they put, you know, Ty Mansfield on the

14:06 Margi Dehlin COVID of LDS Living magazine or, you know, support these North Star conferences where

14:11 John Dehlin general authorities go, and they have bring

14:14 Margi Dehlin up mixed orientation marriage couples to promote

14:18 John Dehlin or at least to advocate for the possibility of mixed orientation marriage. But when, you know, the mixed orientation marriage debacle that happened for decades and is still happening to some degree can be so devastating. It can. You know, it makes you lose your faith in your priesthood leadership for promising you something that doesn't come true. It makes you question your own inspiration with God. When you feel like God told you to get married to this person and it doesn't work out, it's devastating for your children. It's devastating for your own self confidence as a husband or a wife that either isn't able to love their partner or doesn't feel loved or appreciated by their partner. It wrecks families, it causes divorce. It's just so much carnage. It causes problems in so many ways. So thanks for sharing. Do you want to read Courtney's Margie Shout out to Courtney? She's our first ever inaugural donor to the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. So we have to always give Courtney

15:20 Margi Dehlin a special shout out.

15:22 Margi Dehlin Absolutely. Courtney writes, I will always remember the day I went down the rabbit hole. But really the process happened for years as I tried to make myself feel good about things I didn't feel good about. Policies, teachings, practices. Letting go of those things that continually hurt my soul while keeping the teachings that edify me like love, family has been such a gift. I love that. I love that. Yeah, go ahead. No, I just love. I think that is, you know, kind of what we're talking about. It's that mixture of coming to yourself, having your own process, and then on some level, working at healing.

16:07 John Dehlin And that reminds me of your narrative, Natasha. Courtney's does because how long do we go ignoring our own conscience and our own intrinsic sense for what is right and wrong and for what is good for us and what's good for those around us? I think that can be one of the pernicious things about, let's just say, religious fundamentalism. Not religion, but religious fundamentalism is if we're brought up in the wrong religious perspective, we are systematically led away from ourselves, from our conscience, from our internal voice, from our own joy and sense of health and well being. And we can go a long time believing or doing things that are not only against our conscience or our sense of well being, but that actually are harmful to us. And we become numb to the damage that we're ultimately inflicting upon ourselves.

17:07 Margi Dehlin Yeah, like if you asked me the statement of my deconversion, it would be something like coming home to myself or coming back to me or something like that for my deconversion process.

17:21 John Dehlin What it's meant, you kind of came home. Yeah, coming home, that's what it was like. That's what the process has been. That's the aha moment. I think that's the one true gift of the faith crisis is you get to know yourself for the first time. I tell people in my workshops and retreats, what did Jesus say? The kingdom of God is what is within you. The kingdom of God is within you. That's where it's all in and the extent to which we're externally oriented towards external authority, external morality, external spirituality, external guidelines, external social constructs, we can be doing that at the expense of our own conscience and our own internal self and self awakening. Natasha, you want to add anything about that?

18:15 Natasha Helfer Well, I think I drive probably people crazy with my perspective on this, and this is personal. So I just. For me, like you said, Margie, coming home feels personal. Like, that's you. For me, it's like I just. I guess I refused to let them be the Mormon identity, you know, as far as the church. So for me, it's like, I will say something like, I feel more Mormon than ever because of these social justice things, because I'm advocating for ways that I see our church hurting people. That doesn't make me less Mormon. I feel like that makes me more Mormon because for me, the doctrine and the principles and the things that I've decided to take authority and actually believe the Mormon doctrine of personal revelation, I feel like those things, you know, by the fruit, you shall know them. And right now there's a lot of rotting fruit at the base of, you know, the. The church office building, I'm sorry to say. You know, it's my perspective. And so I. It's. It's a little bit different language than what you're using, Margie. But I think it's a similar concept in that I reclaimed my own Mormonism. And maybe I don't fit the stereotype, maybe I'm not active the way, you know, the cultural kind of aspects of it, but I feel more Mormon than ever. And in my social advocacy work, I love that, Natasha.

19:45 John Dehlin It rings true. I gave a talk once at an oasis in Kansas City, and I called it how Mormonism Led Me Away from Mormonism. But it was my love of truth and my, you know, the church teaching me to be courageous and to do what is right, let the consequence follow. And my love for. And a desire to alleviate suffering that really led to my faith crisis in so many ways. And all that's very Mormon. So sometimes it's Mormonism that sets us up for deconversion from Mormonism or at least from a less mature, less healthy or more rigid form of Mormonism for many of us. Not to say that orthodox Mormons are unhealthy or inferior, but for me, I'm in a healthier, happier place. And I know a lot of other people who feel that way. And if orthodoxy is working for you, by all means, stay orthodox, right? All right, Natasha, do You have a quote ready you want to read?

20:52 Natasha Helfer Yeah. So this is from Weston. He says, my deconversion began with my divorce, and the divorce gave me a new ability to reevaluate and critically question my beliefs, habits and ethical foundation. I began to be open with friends and family about my feelings of disillusionment with the orthodox Mormon lifestyle. I felt that I was promised one outcome if I followed the teachings of the church, but I was getting a very different outcome. So right there you have familial, social and existential issues. And then he said, because of my openness, a family member asked me to read Jeremy Reynolds letter, which is a CES letter, and I've been traveling down that rabbit hole for the past two years. Therein is the intellectual. So he's got all four as part of this comment. And as a result, I've been able to love with a greater capacity than ever now that I don't have to place so many conditions on my friendships and empathy.

21:47 John Dehlin Love it. All right, let's keep them coming. So Lisa, shout out to Lisa. She writes, my experience started when I came home from my mission and got a job with the church, the LDS Church. Isn't it funny how we say the church as if there's only one that's so Mormon? I don't know if other churches do that too, but there's. They probably do, or some do. So Lisa says she got a job at the church and was fired with not one word of explanation or warning and that that got the ball rolling for her. She said she went to church for years just trying to find her way in life and her place on this so called plan that they claimed God had for her. She wrote, I could no longer sit in a church where they taught marriage and children and eternal families and how to teach your children as a good mother. And I will never have those experiences in my life. I came to notice feelings of complete loneliness, the loss of self and was always so sad wondering why God's plan wasn't working for me. Wow, very vulnerable. Raw there. She's mentioning some ecclesiastical abuse because even

22:59 Margi Dehlin though it's church employment, you still expect when you work for the church to

23:04 John Dehlin have a higher standard of ethical treatment. And not everyone has that when they work with the church. And working for the church could definitely

23:13 Margi Dehlin be fatal to people's testimonies, I've found. But she also just talks about, yeah, gender stereotypes and expectations on women and

23:22 John Dehlin around motherhood and children that made her

23:25 Margi Dehlin feel like the plan of salvation wasn't for her. And the church kind of sets us up for that too, because they call it the great plan of happiness. Right. And so we.

23:34 John Dehlin And they say men is.

23:36 Margi Dehlin And it should be men and women are. That they might have what, Natasha?

23:40 Natasha Helfer Joy.

23:41 John Dehlin Right. And so what happens if it's not bringing us joy to be in the church that's going to erode our commitment to the church? So, yeah, you shouldn't be feeling lonely in church. And there's that great quote from Robin Williams where he says, I used to think of loneliness as being alone, but there's nothing more lonely, and I'm mastering it. But he says, there's nothing more lonely than feeling alone when you're with somebody. And I'm sure that is multiplied when you're in a church and you're expecting Christ's community to heal your needs. And in reality, you just feel more lonely. That's got to be really hard. So thank you, Lisa, for sharing. Margie, what do you got? And Natasha, you're next.

24:33 Margi Dehlin Yeah. So kind of more on the existential side of things around loss and meaning and, you know, death. I experienced my dad's death a couple years ago, and I do feel like oftentimes that loss or even thinking about death can be something that is really, really profound for people. Deanna wrote in and said, in my youth, I experienced a series of powerful spiritually transformative experiences which led me to Mormonism. Because of this, I followed the religion with exactness for the past 40 years. Five and a half years ago, my father passed away. And one year later, to the date of his death, I began experiencing deep inner questions regarding aspects of the church, namely polygamy and the origins of the temple endowment. And as I delved into researching these topics, I soon found my world crumbling around me. So oftentimes, those existential experiences or longings or questions, questions around meaning and loss can also, I think, create an emotional awareness or nest that provide a transitioning process.

25:55 John Dehlin And Natasha will come to you in a sec, Deanna, when she brings up the temple endowment and even polygamy. It's really interesting in 2019, just as a moment in time in history, since around 2013 14, the church has started coming out with these gospel topics essays where on the Internet, because it was sort of backed into a corner, the church has been acknowledging for the first time many of its troubling historical problems. And you know, masonry is just one of those. We just had the church in the past few weeks not only change their temple ceremony in very fundamental ways away from again, a lot of the Masonic rituals that the church that Joseph Smith incorporated when he first created the endowment after having been a master mason. But now we have the church acknowledging in an essay on LDS.org that in fact the church temple ceremony in many ways comes from the Masonic ceremony. And it's these sort of gospel topics, essays around things like polygamy and blacks in the priesthood and feminism and masonry and all these other things that oftentimes are becoming a companion to people's faith crisis as they're discovering more about their church. All right, Natasha, what do you got?

27:12 Natasha Helfer So I'm gonna do part of Tamara's comment here because I think this is an important one. She's the one who was married in a mixed orientation marriage. But then she also says, I then experienced a sexual assault. Sexuality in general changed completely for me. I went from this loving, beautiful thing between a husband and wife, which I really did experience being married. But what is. But. But then it turned into something that was very different from what I had been taught. Teachings about sexuality started to feel wrong to me, especially after therapy. So I'm guessing she did some good trauma work with her therapist and now had different narratives or scripts around sexuality. Not exactly sure. In our. In our. And maybe, John, you can help me out with this. But in our. Of kind of familial, social. I think sometimes we just have some very profound personal experiences. And maybe this falls under existential, where we're trying to make meaning, where we're trying to understand what especially things that are very horrific or trauma centered. Margie just brought up death, for example, what these things are going to mean for our lives. And sometimes I think religious scripts help with that. And sometimes they come dramatically short for people. And I think that's a reason, you know, I've had people lose their faith kind of after a sibling or child died of cancer. Sexual assault, divorce is really traumatic events that again, for some, religion kind of acts as a comforter during those times. And for some, it just feels incredibly minimizing of their pain or their situation.

28:56 John Dehlin Absolutely. Couple quick comments. Juliet writes, we were insta resigners. It was easier as we have no relatives within 1,000 miles. That helped. So it sounds like Juliette and her husband learned about problems with the church and resigned almost immediately. And that's a very fast. I think she's responding to the velocity at which some people respond. I want to read Judy Judkins. Hey, Judy. She's challenging this idea. She's reflecting this idea that we talked about about you, Natasha, when you said sometimes an awakening can make you feel like you're living truer to Mormonism than not. Judy writes. She's challenging you, Natasha. Is it Mormonism that has inspired you to advocate and search for truth, or is it a human response to suffering and doubts? What do you think, Natasha? Judy's putting you on the. On the hotspot there?

29:52 Natasha Helfer No, I totally agree with that. I think that there's something beautiful about just kind of human humanity. Right. And I think that's why a lot of people kind of start identifying as humanists or existentialists in some way, Universalists, you know, after maybe some of these faith transitions. And I would, too. I definitely credit, you know, if I would have been born Catholic or Jewish or atheist, I think I would have had very similar awakenings in my life. I guess, where I'm just trying to be a little snarky with my own relationship with Mormonism is that I'm like, hey, Mormon leaders up on the mount. You don't get to define this for me. Like, if I, you know, this is the space where I grew up. This is the space where I came to, you know, have some of these ideals or ideas. And there are some things that I still find very symbolically beautiful about certain aspects of Mormon doctrine. And if I want that to claim those, and if I'm acting in ways that you taught me to act, I still get to call myself Mormon if I want to. So it's more of an empowerment thing. But by all means, I totally agree with Judy that I don't credit Mormonism only. I think we all come with kind of innate, beautiful aspects of humanity that hopefully eventually lead most of us anyway towards empathy instead of away from it.

31:13 Margi Dehlin Yeah, there's that. We watched a documentary on that. Do you remember? I think it's called I Am, where it basically breaks apart the brain and talks about how our brain is actually wired to want to feel for others, help others. Do you remember that? Yeah.

31:33 John Dehlin So thanks to Judy for bringing some humanity into the conversation. Read Noel's or read your next one, Margie. I'm really interested in this one.

31:43 Margi Dehlin Yeah, so I love this one because it kind of encapsulates conversion and deconversion in kind of one comment. So Noel writes, conversion happened for me during a critical time in my life. I had just stopped dancing professionally and had broken up with my boyfriend. I was sad and looking for something that would help me grow as a person. Enter my friend Kat, who is bright, beautiful person. We became fast friends. I went to church with her and enjoyed the lessons and the positive aspects of Mormonism. I can honestly say Mormonism helped to shape me into the person I wanted to become. Most importantly, it helped me to become a more introspective person. All said, I didn't have all the information regarding the church and its history. Once I learned about the obfuscations, it changed. It changed everything. And as much as I had gained from being a member of the church, I couldn't in good conscience. Day it was devastating. It is ironic that some of the most valued principles I learned in Mormonism are the very same principles that caused me to question and leave it. Principles like integrity, honesty, and seeking after truth. Truth be told, I never set out to leave. I set out to understand. I just wasn't prepared for what I would find.

32:53 John Dehlin Wow. Yeah. Shout out to Noel. Beautiful comment. And she's reflecting what so many in 2000 and the 2000s are experiencing, which is this feeling of betrayal, having been lied to, of having been deceived, of having been fooled by the church. Not to say the church meant to do this or it was anyone's intent or that everyone experiences this, but many, many, many people do. And it's like this gut punch where you feel sick inside, where you feel like. Almost like discovering a parent isn't what isn't your real parent. But you lived your whole life under the misperception that the parent was your parent because that's what you were taught. And that's hitting a lot of people. And Noel captured it really, really beautifully. And it is devastating. All right, Natasha, you got one more.

33:57 Natasha Helfer Yeah, I didn't see Noel, so I'm not sure I'm totally up to date with all the comments.

34:02 John Dehlin We're drawing some from the Google Doc. We paced.

34:05 Natasha Helfer Okay, okay, okay.

34:06 John Dehlin But it's okay.

34:07 Natasha Helfer PJ says, I really struggled with my faith after I lost my grandparents who helped raise me seven years ago. The comfort that the gospel had given me in the past was not ringing true for me any longer. So that really speaks to. To some of what we were talking about, where things that used to be comforting or were comforting under a certain context for some is no longer. And then there has to be different types of meaning that comes that the religion can't offer.

34:32 John Dehlin I'll Also add in PJ's case, she brings up a really important point. A lot of times your parents or grandparents being alive becomes a really binding force to your continued religious adherence. But when. But when your parents or spouse or whoever passes or leaves your life, all of a sudden something that could have been a main motivator like, I don't want to disappoint my mom. I don't want to disappoint my dad. I don't want to break their hearts or whatever it is. Sometimes the passing of a loved one can gave you for the first time in your life, the freedom to consider whether maintaining activity in the church or belief in the church works for you. Because again, who wants to break mom's heart when she's 80 years old or 90 years old and in a rest home, or when you know, or when you'd be shut out of the will? Who wants to go through a faith crisis when. When you would be disappointing a loved one or putting yourself at risk? And so that can also be what the passing of a loved one can do

35:48 Margi Dehlin indeed.

35:49 John Dehlin Yeah. Linda writes:1. Do you want to read Linda's Natasha?

35:55 Natasha Helfer Let me see if I see that all of a sudden. Yes, I do. As an adopted child, I adapted by becoming a compliant child. I spent much of life trying to be worthy of my family and divinity as well as to be more like them. Orthodoxy was about love and becoming. My family's tradition was orthodox. My father was very involved in missionary work, having served as a stake missionary and 70 much of my youth. I was orthodox and fully believing, but built a heavy shelf along the way. I believe I was prepared. Over time, I somehow managed to live with my struggle, doubting down with each challenge, but feeling increasingly out of step or unworthy.

36:38 Margi Dehlin Sorry.

36:38 Natasha Helfer As more comments come in, it changes where my spot is. A real turning point occurred after I had a difficult adoption reunion and its aftermath with my family. At that time, I also felt my daughter was becoming distant in ways I couldn't fully understand. We had always been close. I'm so grateful for the day when the timing was right for both of us to have a crucial understanding. During that discussion, she shared her own faith journey. The floodgate was open and she shared more than she had wished. She led me to the essays, CES Letter, Rough Stone Rolling and Mormon Stories. I believed her. I began to read the CES letter. That day, a light switch turned on and my faith shattered. While my faith shattered in a moment, I took time to study. For me, truth is best understood when the head and the heart agree. Now the great gift of my faith journey was returned to the whole self.

37:26 John Dehlin Well, I got chills down my spine. That was beautiful.

37:31 Natasha Helfer Yeah.

37:33 John Dehlin Thank you, Linda, for sharing. Natasha, any responses to that?

37:37 Natasha Helfer Yeah, I think, you know, I think that this idea of belonging is such an integral part of how we're wired and desperately wanting to belong. And I think the whole first part of this, as she talks about fitting into her family system and that, you know, that was a great impetus for shelving things as things came up, you know, it threatened that sense of belonging. And so therein lies the shelf. And then, you know, then a different type of belonging issue happened with her daughter where now, you know, there was some distance there that went the other way and it allowed for that, for those things that had been on that shelf to kind of come down. So that very much follows that model that we were talking about, about these emotional things that are happening all along the way. And some of them we may not even be fully, really very self aware about, but they kind of create this, like you're saying, fertile ground for change and seeing things in a different light. Yeah, that's what ends up happening for many people. And the deconversion process happens also in the conversion process, but happens deconversion as well. It's kind of the same two sides of the same coin.

38:49 John Dehlin I love it. Really quickly for those who are listening, if any of you would be willing to this is just a quick favor to like the Mormon Faith Crisis Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Facebook page. Give us a positive review. Share this with friends and family. Those of you who it's safe and you're comfortable doing so, that could go a long way to helping us spread the word about this podcast. Tamara writes in the spirit of the consequences of a Facebook comment. And I'm going to disincent some of you probably to do what I just

39:23 Margi Dehlin asked you to do. Tamara writes, I was recently told by a family member in a private message on Facebook after I commented on a Mormon Stories podcast that my mother would be upset by my lack of faith that I should think of my parents. So Tamara's giving us an example of

39:39 John Dehlin how family guilt or fear can be used to bind us to orthodoxy or

39:45 Margi Dehlin to commitment or at least to the appearance of orthodoxy. And then our dear friend Jennifer from Colorado, who attended one of our mixed faith retreats last year, shout out to Jennifer. She writes, the first crack was when our stake president came to our house and asked for a significant donation to Proposition 8. Our oldest son lost it in front of the stake president. He was out of the church in an instant. It has been a slow burn for the rest of our family. So, yeah, sometimes the church taking political

40:15 John Dehlin action when it might otherwise be well

40:19 Margi Dehlin suited to stay out of the political

40:21 John Dehlin arena can sometimes really be an impetus for people. So thank you, Jennifer, for sharing.

40:26 Margi Dehlin Shout out to you and the family.

40:29 John Dehlin Okay, I want to shift and end

40:32 Margi Dehlin this episode by talking about one really reason why this matters and why did we pick this topic? Some may feel like it's stating the obvious. Hopefully many of you have felt empathized with. Hopefully many of you feel good that we've been able to share some of your narratives. Hopefully those of you who are trying to understand people in a faith crisis have been able to get a better sense.

40:54 John Dehlin I want to refer those of you

40:56 Margi Dehlin who haven't listened to earlier episodes to our episodes around stereotypes. We just want to acknowledge all the dumb stereotypes that exist about why people lose their faith in the church. Because they're lazy, because they wanted to sin. Because they never believed in the first place, because they wanted a beer.

41:12 John Dehlin Because, you know, they were angry. Because they want to have sex.

41:18 Margi Dehlin What's that?

41:19 Natasha Helfer They want to have sex.

41:20 Margi Dehlin Yeah.

41:21 John Dehlin There are all sorts of ways that orthodox Mormons devalue and discredit and try and stereotype the deconversion process, and almost none of them are true. Nobody, you know, nobody who ever really believed in this church leaves over superficial reasons or because they were offended. Right. They leave for very deep and meaningful reasons. And I think we've done a good justice to trying to represent some of that. Josh writes, beer is good, but I had no idea until well over a year after leaving. So I haven't tried beer.

41:59 Margi Dehlin Have you tried beer, Margie?

42:01 Margi Dehlin I have not tried beer, John.

42:03 John Dehlin Natasha, I'm not going to ask you if you've tried beer.

42:05 Natasha Helfer I have tried beer many times. I'm an avid beer drinker. I love beer. I continue to drink it.

42:13 John Dehlin Wait, how can you attend church and drink beer? How does that work?

42:17 Natasha Helfer I don't know. I'm claiming Mormonism on my own terms. I'm more Mormon than ever.

42:22 Margi Dehlin Reframing earlier.

42:24 John Dehlin For those who don't know, the Word of wisdom actually supports the drinking of beer. Read it. It talks about mild drinks of barley. And if you understand what that meant, when Joseph Smith wrote it, he was a beer drinker and he supported drinking beer. And for him, beer drinking was not in violation of the Sabbath.

42:44 Margi Dehlin That's not.

42:46 John Dehlin That's not an endorsement of beer. It's just a historical fact.

42:51 Margi Dehlin Wow.

42:52 Margi Dehlin I mean, we're learning all sorts.

42:55 Natasha Helfer I'm telling you, I am super Mormon.

42:58 Margi Dehlin You are?

42:58 John Dehlin So am I. I'm the most Mormon post Mormon on the planet. I'm taking credit for that.

43:07 Natasha Helfer And people are noticing that you guys are tan, you're tanner than I am.

43:10 John Dehlin So we did get some sun In Mexico.

43:13 Natasha Helfer Yes, you did.

43:14 John Dehlin Okay, so stereotypes aside, the reason why I really wanted to talk about this today is because it addresses an understanding of the emotional basis of a religious faith crisis, is super important for helping progressive and post Mormons learn to communicate better with their believing family and friends. And here's what I mean. The huge mistake that we all make when we have this shift, when we have this loss of faith, when our world falls apart, we immediately a couple things happen. We either want to rescue and save all these other people from a church that we now think could be harmful to them, or we want to win people over or avoid the loss of status in their eyes from having no longer, from no longer being orthodox believing members. And so in that desire to rescue our reputations or save others, we immediately make this huge mistake as post Mormons of trying to use logic to deconvert people or to at least awaken people to the problems. And we see it all the time. These post Mormons are like,

44:37 Margi Dehlin I lost

44:38 John Dehlin my faith and I had all these people around me. So I wrote this big exit letter and I told them all the problems with the church. I told them about polygamy and Book of Abraham and peepstones and the hat and folk magic and anachronisms and the horses and the steel and the masonry and the temple ceremony, all with this, you know, just naive belief that if I just, if they just knew the truth, they would see the church as I do and leave. And we've talked about the backfire effect a million times now on Mormon stories and on this podcast. Not only do we fail to deconvert them from the church, we often actually, as the backfire effect teaches, reinforce and strengthen their commitment to the church. Because that's what happens. The backfire effect teaches us when you introduce evidence, irrefutable evidence, to someone who has a closely held belief that's tied, enmeshed with their identity, we actually inadvertently strengthen their beliefs and their commitment instead of weaken it. And this is, in my view, a result of a fundamental misunderstanding of deconversion. You cannot deconvert someone intellectually from a position that they arrived at emotionally. And so if these people are not emotionally moved, as we all just got through saying, what was our emotional impetus for disaffection? If the people that we're working with, talking to, or sharing with have not had the emotional shift, trying to forcibly shift them to a non believing state through the introduction of logic and evidence, not only is going to be ineffective, not only is it going to backfire, but it's also going to damage your relationship. So do not try this at home. Immediately stop any attempt to deconvert anyone intellectually. It won't work. And I would even argue that trying to deconvert them emotionally isn't going to work because people have to go through their own process and it can't be forced upon them. And so if I could give one piece of advice to the progressive and post Mormon, it's that they never try and deconvert anyone, ever. That they focus on finding as much joy and healing as they can and making those around them who are believers feel safe and unthreatened. Because until they feel safe and unthreatened, they will have their guard up and they'll be protecting themselves from any shift that they might possibly have intellectually or emotionally in terms of their religious orthodoxy. That was a little bit of a soapbox.

47:51 Natasha Helfer Well, I love that Josh says, guilty of trying to save others with the logic.

47:57 John Dehlin And I often call up to it.

47:59 Natasha Helfer Yeah, I often call this our missionary DNA. And I don't care where you're at on the Mormon spectrum, you still probably have it. We are, we've been raised in a culture where, you know, being a missionary is kind of ingrained in us. So watch that, watch that. Oh, I guess leaning right that we all have within us to want to

48:22 Margi Dehlin do that and realize that maybe one of the biggest influencers that, you know, we have, not necessarily having it be our intention to. To influence or to bring people around to, but is simple embodiment. It's actually living, you know, our values and living our life over time that actually I feel like is one of the most influential things that we can do well.

48:53 Natasha Helfer And just like we critique people who are orthodox for being judgmental of us again, it's very easy for us to be judgmental of more orthodox people. And I think, you know, when you get into the higher levels, like the stages of faith 5 and 6, it's more about can you really be accepting and loving of people where they're at? And that's really living our religion and our values in ways that most of us struggle with.

49:22 John Dehlin We got a comment from one of my favorite Mormon Stories episode interviewees of all time, Jared Spotted Elk. I interviewed Jared on Mormon Stories podcast as a part of my Losing the Lamanites series. Jared is a Native American and he was raised a Native American Mormon, and he's super wise and interesting and I'm glad Jared wrote this question, but this is a really important question and I want to kind of end our episode Today with this question, because it's driving the question a little bit deeper than what we just talked about. Jared writes, and I'm going to add a little bit of color. He says, you know, okay, if we shouldn't try intellectually to deconvert somebody, Jared asks, would there be any good suggestion to introduce a possible spiritual shift to another? So he's basically saying, all right, if we can't intellectually deconvert somebody, is there a way to nurture emotional or spiritual discovery or growth that then could trigger a deconversion or at least a deconversion from orthodoxy? And when you get this from so many mixed faith couples, it's just like, okay, yes, we can figure out how to have a mixed faith marriage. And by the way, I'd like to argue that a mixed faith marriage is an incredibly positive opportunity for all sorts of fertile growth and development in the family. But you do get these non believing spouses in a mixed faith marriage, or a sibling who has no siblings that are non believers or whoever who just like, if I could just jump start a faith crisis, somehow our marriage would be so much better. I could get my brother or sister again. I could reconnect with my parents and there's this real sincere desire to try and move people along the spectrum and even jumpstart a deconversion. What do you guys think about that? Is that unethical? Is it ethical? Is it prudent? Is it mean? Jared Spotted Elk is asking us.

51:39 Margi Dehlin I feel like a few, I don't know, but I have a few just things that come to mind. The first thing that comes to mind is, you know, I feel like as human beings we sniff out judgment or an intention from another person really, really quickly. So if in any way, you know, that suggestion of a shift right there, if there's this sense of like, you could, could you be more enlightened or maybe you're a little bit limited, that that gets sniffed out pretty quickly. That's just my experience. And so kind of being aware of that, I find the second thing I find is just, you know, what level relationship is this? One thing Brene Brown said recently I loved was her talk on vulnerability. That we, many people have taken that talk and they're now being vulnerable with everyone. It's like license to be vulnerable. And the point was just, you know, that people we share our vulnerability with, you know, should be worthy of that vulnerability. And so one thing just to kind of maybe contemplate is just what level relationship is this? Is this a really deep and vulnerable relationship? And then if so, you know, that would be a different thing than if it's like, you know, you talk deeply about some things but not other things. And that's something that I use kind of a level one to level five. Five being really, really deep. One being like you talk about the weather and how good food is and kind of how their job is, that can be helpful. And then the last thing I would just say is the most effective thing that I've found and I'm curious for Natasha and John is just asking questions is honestly being open hearted with this idea of I want to understand you better and I want to know what like I'm curious what love looks like to you and how it plays out in your life or whatever the conversation or that you're thinking with regard to a spiritual shift that questions really objective, you know, loving questions that are laid out there to explore and to get to know another human being, I feel like is one of the most powerful tools with regard to creating an environment where a shift is more apt to happen. But then again, that person would also need to be ready for a shift. So those are just some things that came to mind for me.

54:21 John Dehlin Natasha, I'm going to come to you in just a second, but I want to give a shout out to something called street epistemology as Margie talks about just asking questions. Street epistemology is a process by which. And you can go to streetepistemology.com to learn about it or you can Google street epistemology Mormon because There are some YouTube examples of people using street epistemology with Mormons. But it's basically this process of asking people what they believe, how they believe what they believe and why they believe what they believe. I know Jeremy Runnels is a big fan of this, but some people have found it as an effective way to help people dig a little bit deeper. And Natasha, I'm going to ask you this question again because there are a lot of, you hear a lot of people who once they discover the church isn't what they thought it was, say, I wish I had known sooner, right? I wish someone had told me this sooner. Maybe I would have made a bunch of different decisions. So it's reasonable for a non believer to want to quote, wake up or enlighten somebody else and you know, we can dismiss it as just simply the Mormon missionary zeal in reverse. But isn't there something credible to a desire once you've discovered truth, once you've discovered the potential harm of Mormonism, isn't there Something potentially reasonable or even laudable about wanting to awaken others to either prevent them from future harm or to give people a chance to see the church for what it is and to take control of their lives or to discover who they are. But they won't get that until they wake up from the sleep of what many would say is religious fundamentalism, that deep sleep. What do you say to that, Natasha?

56:07 Natasha Helfer You know, one of the things that I really liked about presenting with you, one of the first times we did, was the imagery that you had of Lehi and the fruit. You know, and he picks this fruit and then what's the first thing he wants to do with it is he wants to share it with the people he loves. And I think that's true. No matter where we're at, you know, whatever our truth is, whatever we have found to be helpful or new information, we want to share it with the people whom we most love. And if your truth is fundamentally different from my truth, that's where it can become very painful and confusing and difficult. People feel attacked or if people feel, you know, offended with one another. Even though I think the desire is very loving and well meaning and well intentioned to share what I have found out. Especially if you're my spouse, right. Or my child or my dear deep friend. So it is complicated. I think sometimes you just have to test the waters. You can share a few things and see how it goes. And again, to Margie's point, depending on the level of intimacy you have with somebody, but you also have to be prepared that people are going to have a very different experience with information than you've had. And so then at that point you can kind of back up and focus more on love and respect and relationship rather than information. I think there's room for both. And you know, I think too that, oh, I just lost my train of thought. That's it.

57:38 John Dehlin No, think about it. I'll just fill in and then we can come back to you. Natalie writes, I hope speaking out on this is valid because I can't keep my mouth shut lately. And that's so typical Natalie. Yeah, we've all been through. None of us are going to do this perfectly and it is really impossible to stay quiet. So we, we need to bring a healthy dose of acceptance to this faith crisis, realizing that we're gonna have a hard time keeping it quiet. Even if it, even if keeping quiet is the right thing to do, it's gonna be super hard and sometimes we're gonna totally blow it. If not, blow it A lot for a long period of time. I still, you know, you do have people who feel, you know, motivated or impressed that they should tell a sibling or a spouse or a parent or a friend. And you do hear instances where that that spouse or that sibling or that parent or that friend is eternally grateful for what they learned and. And their lives are forever changed in the positive. And so that is a possible outcome and we don't want to short circuit that from ever happening. It's also possible to destroy relationships irreparably. There are, you know, family members who. I don't have a relationship anymore because of the way. Because of the decisions that I've chosen. Now, overall, the. I'm sad about those lost relationships, but overall, I feel like the importance of what I've done, chosen to speak out so publicly, has been worth it, even though I'll always mourn the loss of those relationships. But everyone needs to realize that speaking out carries potential benefits, but it carries potential real risks. It can hurt your marriage, it can hurt your family relationships, it can hurt friendships, it can even affect inheritance or employment. And I don't say all those things to instill fear. I think ultimately authenticity and vulnerability is the key to growth and healthy living. So I tend to err on the side of vulnerability and openness and honesty. But I don't want to irresponsibly advocate for that because there can be real material downsides or risks to speaking out and it can harm other people. There are people in this. I don't want this to come across as condescending, but there are people that want or need religion and whose lives are better off with it, and who wants to be responsible for stripping someone of their religion and without providing them any superior replacement, only to see their lives fall apart. And that can happen. People can flourish and take off, or they can fall to the ground with the thud and have all sorts of very negative collateral damage happen, either to a marriage or to their own personal health or their lifestyle choices. And so I never want to be in the position personally where I think I know someone better than they do, where I think I'm going to push on them my agenda. Maybe that comes from my training as a psychologist. I just don't believe it's ethical to push your morals or agenda or values on people. I think people's journey and process should be respected. And so that's why, Jared Spotted Elk I tend to lean against being that zealot that tries to convert people or even try and push them down a new spiritual or emotional track because I would never want to harm them. And by the way, Jared tells me that I've confused him with his brother. So it wasn't Jared who was on Mormon stories, but it was his awesome brother. But Jared says he's every bit as smart and as thoughtful and as intelligent and as insightful as his brother. So, Jared, we'll have to have you on Mormon Stories soon.

1:01:54 Natasha Helfer I would just like to say that I think that we're delving into future topics and I'd be really talking about, you know, communicating with family and friends and when and if you want to share what are some good strategies in regards to all that. So please stay tuned for future episodes because we'll definitely be talking about those things. I think going back to your original point, John, is that we're wanting people to understand that both conversion to and deconversion from are very normal human experience experiences. Both have a lot of similar processes involved with those. And then, you know, back to even the question about can we have some influence? I'm a big believer that the biggest way we influence is shifting within ourselves. So how we show up, how we have conversations with people. You know, as a marriage therapist, it's very classic that people come into therapy and what are they doing? They're telling me, well, he's the problem, she's the problem. They're not usually saying, oh, I'm the problem. Every now and then I get those. Typically, we're trying to change the mind of the other person. And the number one rule of doing effective marriage therapy is to get people to really focus more on their own role. What they have control over. You only have control over yourself, very little control over another person. So I think that we automatically, in many ways, potentially shift for spiritual change just in our interactions with other people, especially if we show up in ways that are loving and respectful.

1:03:31 Margi Dehlin I so agree. All about embodiment.

1:03:34 John Dehlin Yep. So I think, Jared, the best thing any of us can do is live the best, happiest, healthiest life that we can. And if we found joy and truth and health and well being, how can that not be obvious and visible to the people around us? Maybe that's the best testimony of all. And having said that, I don't want progressive and post Mormons to feel the pressure of having to be perfect and shining examples of perfection because we hated that in Mormonism. We don't need that in progressive or post Mormonism either. But I still love your idea, Natasha, of just living the best truth you can and living the best life you can is the best witness and loving.

1:04:17 Natasha Helfer Well, yeah. Yeah.

1:04:20 John Dehlin So it is time to wrap up this episode. We want to thank all our many listeners for joining us. We have a few things to share before we end. Want to remind people about the upcoming Mormon Faith Crisis events. I'm just going through them quickly. We've got Orem, Utah in February, Las Vegas in February, Ogden in March, a mixed faith retreat in Salt Lake City in April for mixed faith couples. We've got Gilbert, Arizona in May, Park City retreat in June, Switzerland in Europe in late June, Colorado in August, Southern California in September, an open retreat in October. Place to be determined if you want your own retreat or workshop. And then we're going to try and do a mixed faith retreat again in November. Please check out MormonFaithCrisis.com events to register for these events. To learn more. Again, February 13th in a couple days I'll be doing a free workshop, 7pm at Community of Christ. Natasha, we're going to get some events coming to the Midwest, right?

1:05:22 Natasha Helfer Well, I was going to ask for a shout out, I guess. So I am more than happy. I mean I live in Wichita, Kansas. I'm more than happy to drive to Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Omaha. I can get a very cheap flight into Chicago, Milwaukee, Dallas, if you're in any of those types of areas and have a home that could potentially host 20 to 30 people to have either one day or weekend or even an evening type of workshop to help with mixed faith marriages, faith transitions, sexuality, a variety of things that I can present on, I'd be super happy to be able to do that. And the best way we can do that is to lower costs. So if somebody can provide the venue and if it's somewhere that I can get to fairly cheaply, then we can lower the cost and hopefully have more people attend. So if you're in any of those types of cities and think that you would be a great host as far as your home, please reach out to us, let us know that you'd be willing to do that and we can, we can make that happen because I'd love to meet a lot of you in those areas and you could reach

1:06:32 John Dehlin out, you can request a workshop or retreat@mormonfaithcrisismail.com that's where you email us. Christine notes that the events aren't there right now. That's true. I finalized these events in the hour preceding this podcast episode. So I will be getting the registration information for all these events up in the next day or two. So please return to mormonfirthcrisis.com events and you'll see registration information and details for all these events really quickly. If you want to support us, there's several ways to do it. You can become a donor, a monthly donor. Go to mormonfaithcrisis.com, click on the donate button again. 10, 25, 50, a hundred bucks a month, whatever you can afford will pay for the expenses for this podcast, but it'll also be paying forward. Whatever benefit you get from it will not only benefit you, but also it will benefit generations to come with this support for the faith crisis. So if you guys will keep supporting, we'll keep doing this. Big thanks to our 20 donors that are donating or 25 donors that are donating so far. You're making this possible. We really appreciate it. Please like our Facebook page. Please give a positive review on our Facebook page. Positive review on itunes makes a big difference. Please share this with other people. Email us. And of course, if any of you need coaching, you can reach Natasha, natashaparker.org, margieautyinthenow.org and melondelen.com we love to support people in their individual needs when we can. So thanks so much to everyone. Tamara writes, I have donated and then had my work match it. So Tamara is encouraging everyone to use their work to match the donations. We appreciate that. Actually, that may not work because right now, the Mormon Faith crisis is not a 501c3 thing. So we don't know if your work will match that, but maybe they will if they will do it. If not, support the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories Podcast and Mormon Mental Health Podcast, because those that is a 501C3 nonprofit. So anyway, thanks to everyone. We're gonna have a lot more episodes. We're gonna do this every week, so every Tuesday we'll do this live stream and we'll be covering much more topics in the weeks and months ahead. If you have a request for a topic, email us@mormonfaithcrisismail.com if you want to share a story or make a recommendation, we'd love to hear it. And again, please tell everyone about this podcast, everyone you know, so that we can help as many people as possible. Jared wants to know if I can coach him on his jump shot. Absolutely. Jared, meet me in Holiday, Utah, and we'll do some basketball coaching. All right, everyone, we love you. Margie, you're awesome. Thank you.

1:09:31 Margi Dehlin You're awesome. Natasha, you're awesome.

1:09:33 John Dehlin Natasha, you're wonderful.

1:09:35 Natasha Helfer You are both amazing. I love my Tuesdays with the Delins. So. And everybody else who joins us, thank you for everybody. Everybody who comments and makes makes it just so much more interactive and valuable, I think, when we have so many people who make, you know, who share their stories and tell us about their experiences. So thank you to everybody.

1:09:55 John Dehlin Absolutely. Shout out to Jaina and Brian and Melissa and Maddie and everyone who's joining us. It's been pleasure. We'll see you guys soon on another edition of the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. Appreciate everyone. Take care, everybody.

1:10:08 Natasha Helfer Goodbye.

1:10:09 Margi Dehlin By.